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Old 01-03-2013, 14:56   #26
audiomechanic
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
The first you've heard? It is very well-known among firearms instructors who teach civilians.

The "why" is because a husband/wife relationship makes it much harder for the student to take advice and correction and much more likely the 2 will get mad at each other and want to quit - beyond that, most husbands think they know how to shoot and most don't know crap. Not being actual instructors, they don't know how to shoot or how to teach, so they screw up their student.\

Basically, what xidica said, above.
Yes, he first I've heard. Calm down, I'm not trying to form an argument FOR being my wife's primary teacher. I'm not against her getting training and she will from a qualified instructor.

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Old 01-03-2013, 15:09   #27
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The first you've heard? It is very well-known among firearms instructors who teach civilians...
I remember a Ladies-Only match (not at our club) that I RO'd and also shot, attended largely by female LEOs. I've forgotten the exact event that triggered the instructor in me, but remember that one LEO was doing something rather bazaar at the line (grip, I think...) I asked her if she wanted some advice. She said okay, but in reality, blew me off as I wasn't her LE firearms instructor. 10 minutes later, she's at the line again with her (male) LEO Instructor and he starts railing on her mercilessly - and she takes it. I gave him a dirty look, but didn't completely stop him. Training, man-to-women, LEO style.
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Old 01-12-2013, 17:57   #28
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To give an update: wife went to the range last weekend and today and I accompanied her (her request; she wanted me there). So far she's doing much better! Still anticipating the trigger a bit, but not nearly as bad. She's relaxing more at the range and is getting used to the environment. Last weekend and this weekend she did a lot of shooting with the .22 pistol. That has helped a lot. At 7yds, she can make about a 6" diameter group around the bull area. When she switches to the Glock, she repeats this, but after a couple of mags, she begins jumping the trigger again. Last weekend, I loaded the .22 for her, and a couple of times I faked her out and only loaded 1 or two rounds into the gun and told her it was fully loaded. This had the same effect as the fake bullets. She definitely felt herself flinching and tensing as she pulled the trigger with no round there to fire. This was a lesson for her and from that point on, she can now recognize herself when she's flinching.

This week was even more improved than last week. She shot the .22 about 60% of the time, only flinching once or twice and putting probably 100-120 rounds through it. When she switched over to the Glock, she flinched a little bit, but now, even when she flinches, the results on the paper are lot less dramatic! Before, when she would flinch, the holes would be about at the 7-o'clock position and the majority of her shots would be at least inside the 7-ring (or even lower than that). Today 80% or better of her shots at 7yds are within the 9-ring with only a few dropping into the 8 and very few in the 7-ring. I gave her lots of encouragement and praise which works well for her.

Towards the end of her time, we switched targets and she emptied 2 mags into the 10-ring of the target with her G19, completely decimating the bullseye of the paper. Then a kid in the booth next to us rented a Dessert Eagle .50 cal and started firing that monster. This freaked her out a little and she started flinching again, but still kept most of her shots within the 9-ring anyway. She's improving and feeling better about herself and her progress.

Thanks for the tips, everyone! They are paying off!

To answer the nay-sayers: yes, she will get training from an instructor. We have not had the money yet, but will soon.

Last edited by audiomechanic; 01-12-2013 at 17:59..
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Old 01-12-2013, 18:50   #29
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Really glad to hear about the improvement and thanks for giving us an update! Did you try out Hot Wells? If so, how'd you like it?
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Old 01-12-2013, 18:52   #30
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Hey thanks! She's feeling good about herself and her progress.

We haven't tried Hot Wells yet, but that is where we will get her a private training session. Right now we're shooting for the end of Jan for that.
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Old 01-12-2013, 18:59   #31
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Excellent news. congratulations to her. She will be an excellent shooter in no time. Anything worth doing, is worth doing to excess.....

She is doing a very good thing by taking responsibility for her own safety in todays world.

My wife took a pistol course at the range and when she came back I asked her what she shot. She said: .22, 9mm, .38, .40, .357 and .45. I asked how she liked the .357 and she said "it wasn't bad but the .45 was easier shooting".

Many people are afraid of the calibers other people have told them the be afraid of. Women make very good shooters because they take instruction well.
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Old 01-12-2013, 19:07   #32
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Thanks! She feels good about learning to shoot and beginning to carry.

One plus in the whole thing is she picked out the G19 she owns. I didn't buy her a gun and say, "here, shoot this." We rented several guns from the range and she settled on two she really liked. The Sig P229 and the G19. We didn't have the funds for the P229 and it was a bit large and heavy for CC so the G19 was it! She likes her G19 a lot and is really beginning to enjoy shooting it. The more she goes, the more relaxed she is and the better time she has.

You're definitely right about calibers. Although, I'm a bit afraid of the .50 cal that was being shot next to us today, simply because that massive gun was about hitting the kid shooting it in the face when it went off. No thanks. LOL

When my wife doesn't flinch, her grouping and aim is impressive by my standards, especially given her background and experience level. She's movin up quick!

We'll be back at the range next weekend for more practice! Past two trips to the range, I have not fired one round. It's all about her.

Last edited by audiomechanic; 01-12-2013 at 19:08..
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:08   #33
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Another update: She continues to improve. The past 2 trips to the range she has not flinched with the .22 at all. She starts with the .22, puts about 4-5 mags through that as a 'warm up' and then switches to the Glock. Her grouping with the .22 is about 4 inches at 7 yards which is pretty darn good IMO. Her grouping with the Glock is about 6-7 inches at 7 yards when she doesn't flinch. Each time she goes to the range, she flinches less and less with the Glock. She's still flinching about 1/4 to 1/3 of her shots as of this last trip, but it is decreasing with experience. She's also doubled her hearing protection which has helped as well. When she does flinch, it's not as dramatic as before. The shots are not as low on the paper as before. Before, she would flinch so bad her shots were down at the bottom edge of the paper, or even under it. Not, all of her shots are within the 7 ring, and when she doesn't flinch, she's within the 9 ring consistently.

This last trip to the range, she had to shoot my Glock 23 instead of her 19 because we ran out of 9mm ammo and can't find any! The .40 has a bit more punch than the 9mm, of course, but she did amazingly well with it! We even stepped her distance back to 10 yards and she says shooting at 10 yards is easier than 7! She'll be going again to the range tomorrow, but this time by herself. I think she'll do fine. Not the first time she's gone solo. Her CHL class is towards the end of Feb so she's got 3 more weekends to practice. I think she'll pass the shooting portion fine.

She still has one box of 9mm left, but she's saving that for the CHL class, unless of course we find some in stock before then. Heck, if she get's good at shooting the G23 before then, shooting the G19 for her test will be a piece of cake.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:46   #34
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Best thing to do for eliminating the "flinch factor" is dry firing. That will get her used to pulling the trigger and not flinching. Sure, it is different when a round is in the barrel, but if she could get used to the act of pulling the trigger without flinching, that will help. If she catches herself flinching while using live ammo, have her remove the ammo and dry fire again. If you're concerned about the notion of dry firing damaging the gun (which I have never observed in any of my guns) then pick up some 9mm snap caps, which will give the firing pin something to hit that is meant specifically for that purpose. Not to mention she can also do dry firing practically anywhere, naturally just as long as she's very careful to ensure the gun is empty.

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So I'm posting this for my wife using my account.

Back-story (shortened): my wife grew up in a very oppressive household that put fear of guns above that of death and taxes. Her mom was controlling and had mental problems herself. Then she met me. I had a few guns when we dated and got married, but I'm not a 'gun nut' (not that there's anything wrong with gun nuts ). She did not even want to be in the same room with a gun. I never pressured her to shoot, handle, or otherwise like my guns or any guns.

After 4 years of marriage and me not pressuring, her attitude and outlook on guns has radically changed. She shot my old .22 Luger pistol and then shot my .380 Sig P230 a few times. Then this year for Christmas I got her a G19 (which she picked out and tried out by renting at the range first) and she really loves it. However, she's having a bit of trouble at the range and she's becoming discouraged and down on herself.

The main problem is she's anticipating the trigger. She flinches just before firing which causes the barrel to drop and her to shoot low. She's on center for the most part, just low. The range guides have given her tips and tricks and whatnot to help her, but it hasn't really. She's been working on taking her time to shoot and notice what she's doing incorrectly.

She went to the range by herself today and was told that she needs to stop shooting the Glock and solely shoot the .22.

My thought is this shooting thing is all still so new that she's still having a bit of sensory overload (her words) and she's just not used to it yet. I told her she just needs time and practice. More time behind her Glock and many more rounds to get her used to not only the gun, but the recoil, the noise, and being in a loud environment with other guns. She does better after she's been shooting for 30 minutes or so. She does worst when she first arrives. She's only shot at 7 yards and is concerned about being ready for her CHL class (womens only at the end of Feb).

Any other ladies out there can offer advice? Am I off base with my thoughts? I've got firearms experience, but I'm no expert.

My wife thanks y'all in advance.
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Old 02-06-2013, 17:35   #35
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I would advise that she use industrial foam ear plugs AND a good set of ear muffs. I like the electronic muffs as I can still
hear range commands. This combo will greatly cut down on noise and blast and help her with trigger follow through. Another would be to change the GL19 serrated trigger out for a smooth trigger (GLSP00357) Some of the serrations are sharp on some triggers and tough on trigger finger.
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:11   #36
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One thing I find beneficial when dealing with flinch is to train on a revolver loaded with a mix of blank (already fired) rounds and live rounds. Spin the cylendar before firing do they don't know what they will be shooting on the first shot. When they land on a blank, they see their own flinch, and it becomes clear to them what they are doing, in a way that is much more understandible than words. As they focus on not flinching, never knowing if it will be an empty or a live round, they make very rapid improvements.
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Old 02-07-2013, 15:17   #37
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The first I've heard of it being a bad idea for a spouse to teach the other spouse to shoot was very recently. I have to ask why? Not that I'm trying to be Mr. Knowitall teacher because I'm not, I'm curious as to why it's such a blanketed bad idea is all.
First of all the teaching spouse may not be knowledgeable enough.

Secondly even if the spouse is knowledgeable it doesn't mean that the person can teach.

Thirdly the two spouses are too emotionally vested to make objective calls.


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Old 02-07-2013, 17:45   #38
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Thanks all for the advice!!! I will run this past her. She's really discouraged right now and I'm trying to encourage her and just reaffirm that this takes practice. Her CHL class is Feb 24th and she's very concerned she won't be ready in time and won't pass the shooting proficiency part of the class. I think she'll do fine, personally, but she does need practice.

There's not really a good outdoor range around (there is one but it sucks and is stupid expensive) but she will try doubling up on hearing protection and shooting the .22. We'll check and see how much an hour of firearm training will be at the range we frequent. Otherwise, when she signed up for her CHL, she also signed up for a 2 hour basic handgun training course and will be taking that prior to the class as well.

She's being really hard on herself (a side effect of growing up with and learning from insane mentally ill parents) and it sucks watching that.

Thanks again everyone!!!
I don't know about Texas but in Florida, there is no shooting proficiency part of the test. Basically if you can fire off one round downrange, without dropping the gun or killing anyone, you're pretty much good to go. Yup, it's pretty ridiculous but, that's Floriduh for you.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:52   #39
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First of all the teaching spouse may not be knowledgeable enough.

Secondly even if the spouse is knowledgeable it doesn't mean that the person can teach.

Thirdly the two spouses are too emotionally vested to make objective calls.


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Yeah, good points. So far, my wife is appreciative of my help and has asked me to accompany her to the range. She feels more comfortable with me than the overly-pushy range guides there. Last weekend, she went to the range solo and from here on out till her CHL test in 3 weeks she'll be going alone. That way I don't become a crutch for her. I'm not an expert or professional as I have noted, but I do at least know the basics which is all I was attempting to help her with. However, I never forced my help upon her. She requested it. I am all for her going to professionals for training and she actually has a class coming up in a couple weeks with a professional. Once she gets her CHL, we plan to do further training in handgun handling, proficiency and some tactical stuff. Both of us.

Yeah, I know that me teaching her is unorthodox, but we're an unorthodox couple and don't fit into most typical social norms.

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I don't know about Texas but in Florida, there is no shooting proficiency part of the test. Basically if you can fire off one round downrange, without dropping the gun or killing anyone, you're pretty much good to go. Yup, it's pretty ridiculous but, that's Floriduh for you.
There is a shooting proficiency test in Texas. 50 rounds in 5 round sets. 5, 10, and 15 yards. Although it's not a marksmanship test so, from what I remember from my test, as long as someone hits the paper the majority of the time, they pass. Inside the 7 ring gets them a fair score too.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:26   #40
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You might consider an Advantage Arms .22LR conversion kit for the glock, it will keep the same trigger and grip shape, weight etc. Switching to a target .22 with different sights and trigger and grip angle will of course reduce recoil, but the gun feels so different one might still anticipate recoil with the totally different feeling glock in hand.
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Old 02-21-2013, 17:57   #41
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Get to know someone who reloads or take it up yourself and arrange for some low velocity rounds. The minimum recoil and noise will make shooting her favorite 19 something she'll be eager to do.

Ideally loads at the bottom of the velocity chart and get comfortable with those.

I suggest she disregard grouping to any degree. Stand off 5 yards with you loading her mags and let her have at it fire the gun with the goal to empty the mag and have another ready for her to load and take off again. It wont be long she wont pay a bit of attention to noise or recoil and her groups with naturally improve. Take 500 rounds to the range and shoot them all. (reloads with the near squib charges) By the time she finishes the 500 she'll want to shoot something with a little more bite to it.

My wife had the same frame of mind about guns and its how I helped her realize the boom don't bite and that recoil is insignificant.

I reload so it was easy to keep it affordable. We shoot in the back yard (we're very rural) I sat with a pail of rounds between my legs and load her mags and she would drop the mag for me and I'd had another on the bench for her to pick up and go at it. No waiting. Every couple hundred rounds she'd go pee and I 'd swab the barrel and she'd bring a fresh pitcher of sweet tea and we would begin another session, if she wanted, usually we'd go for 500 rds.

In 4 or so 1-2 hour sessions she was putting every round in 4". She goes out now and is shooting at 15-20 yds and has no trouble. She's shooting heavier loads now and has no issues with it at all.

Tell her to relax about the CC stuff take the class when she's pumped with confidence. She doesn't need to pack until then and the stress is bad for her shooting experience in every respect. (I know how that suggestion sounds, sorry)

If your in TX Id find a spot out in the national forest or desert somewhere and make it your private range away from everyone.

Do yourself a big favor learn how to roll your own. Its the next step to really taking control of the whole shooting thing. My wife shoots my 34 and I cast our bullets and use the KKM barrel for plinking lead. It became second nature for her in a matter of a few months.

She really likes shooting my Detective Special which is her carry gun I guess I should say her D.S . it was her choice for her class.

AND if I havent said enough she now reloads 9mm and .38 special and I LIKE THAT!
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Old 02-21-2013, 19:14   #42
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Good advice, TomD.
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Old 02-21-2013, 19:53   #43
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Has she ever tried .45 or a heavier gun? Though I like both rounds, I find .45 more predictable and controllable.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:57   #44
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I guess i am luckier than most my husband is a 14 year veteran, was a sniper, an armor, and was the firearms trainer for his unit in the Army. So i feel comfortable with him tweaking my performance and i am not a new shooter i was raised shooting from the time i was 5 with a BB gun then a 410 shot gun, a 22 rifle, and finally my first handgun when i was 13. I did stop shooting and handling guns for about 8 years before getting back into it so i do need reminders every now and then on stance and grip. I also appreciate the tips on trigger pull i find myself allowing the barrel to travel some on longer trigger pulls and it pulls my shots high. I use a laser sight and dry fire to try to see how bad i travel and try to correct it, the laser gives me an unmistakable visual that i can watch and adjust

Just thought i would share my own little trick in case it might help anyone else who might not "SEE" it otherwise (i tried to argue i wasn't moving that much)
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Old 02-24-2013, 13:02   #45
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I don't know about Texas but in Florida, there is no shooting proficiency part of the test. Basically if you can fire off one round downrange, without dropping the gun or killing anyone, you're pretty much good to go. Yup, it's pretty ridiculous but, that's Floriduh for you.
Here in Illinois we have to jump through hoops (and background checks to get a FOID card) just to be able to won a gun and if the law makers have their way we will never have conceal carry
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Old 02-24-2013, 15:12   #46
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I found this discussion very interesting as I too am a very new shooter. I am having some of the same problems as your wife. I know it is an anticipation thing that is causing me to tighten my grip and flinch. Not exactly sure how to overcome this. When I dry fire my G22 my sights don't budge at all. I can do it just about all day with a .22 case sitting on top of the front sight - it never falls. I even went out and bought a laser training pistol to use around the house for practice. I can shot down the length of a long hallway all the way across the living room and the laser makes a nice clean dot on the wall with little if any movement. But when I go out to the range the flinch is there.

I have been working on trying to pull the trigger very very slowly and that helps some as I am less sure when it will go bang. I have a 9mm conversion barrel (just got) that I am going to try this week as maybe I will be less apprehensive with it than the .40cal. I have very little problems with a .22cal, its just the bigger stuff that is haunting me right now. Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
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Old 02-24-2013, 17:19   #47
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...when I go out to the range the flinch is there.

I have been working on trying to pull the trigger very very slowly and that helps some as I am less sure when it will go bang. I have a 9mm conversion barrel (just got) that I am going to try this week as maybe I will be less apprehensive with it than the .40cal. I have very little problems with a .22cal, its just the bigger stuff that is haunting me right now. Any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
It's been mentioned above - try (quality) double hearing protection; both insert and muffs.

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Old 02-24-2013, 17:44   #48
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It's been mentioned above - try (quality) double hearing protection; both insert and muffs.
I've been using the foam insert plugs and then a set of muffs the range lends out on top of them. I just ordered my own set of electronic muffs.
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Old 02-24-2013, 18:19   #49
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I am having some of the same problems as your wife. I know it is an anticipation thing that is causing me to tighten my grip and flinch.
I will pm you a link to the US Army Marksmanship Manual. Read the first three chapter (actually its all a great read). Something important in your post that caught my eye.

When your grip tightens your "grabbing" and creating a "choking grasp" and you flinch

How does this fit in with the problem of the flinch? There is an interaction with gripping that keys the brain to flinch. Part of over coming the flinch reaction is to over come the tightening of the grip reflex when you fire. Which comes first doesn't matter when you over come one you will overcome the other. What I have seen work with a number of shooters is simple.

"The pistol should be held by being gripped
normally, not by a choking grasp that endeavors to press on the stock in an all enveloping
grab." from Chapter one Section C. Grip (sub g)

So how does the grip help overcome the flinch. The manual is specific about the tightness of the grip. concentrate hard on your effort in maintaining an ALMOST choking grip, near trembling. You should grip tight enough to make you want the shot to be gone, not to be confused with rushing the shot.

If you tighten your grip after or as you fire the shot your not gripping tight enough to begin with. Your thinking about the wrong thing. Its very important that you almost choke it. When I finish a ten round string my hand hurts from the tightness and there is no thought to the rounds going off. Your mind is on sight control, gripping tight enough to just avoid the tremble, your hand will hurt just a little and no time for thought about recoil or noise. If your not thinking about it you wont do it (flinch).

Get the slack out of the trigger immediately no slow squeezing get the travel to the point you know will trigger the shot and make it. No dogging around. Get rid of the slack and get rid of the shot and take the next one with a very firm grip.

Big gun or little gun if your flinching your heads not in it. Think (concentrate) about control of your gun and the front sight with authority in how you hold the gun getting it right with your hand with authority .

The Manual goes into great detail about getting things right with your hand and the gun.

When in your mind you are in control you wont flinch. Let it start with how you hold your gun. You want to look forward to the next round and not concern yourself with the negative emotions that can take control, it makes you jerk or feel like a jerk.

PM coming
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Last edited by Tom D; 02-24-2013 at 18:56..
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Old 02-24-2013, 18:23   #50
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The above advice is good, and remember time served and practice, practice, practice, is needed to be good at anything. A white belt with ten years experience is far more dangerous than a black belt with one.
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