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Old 02-07-2013, 11:13   #121
RussP
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This has been an established tactic for a very, very long time, ever since enemies found that we have ROEs that we follow. Enemy forces embed themselves in civilian populations because we avoid civilian casualties at most any cost.

Our enemies have no qualms about killing their own to get at American forces.

If we make a rule that Americans who give comfort and aid to the enemy are to be treated as citizens within the United States instead of enemy combatants, they will sprinkle American recruits among their leaders as human shields.

Why can't they be arrested. Sure, get an arrest warrant for them and we'll let you go serve it.

Who would do the arresting? Remember, they are sitting right next to the terrorist leaders. They are living in the same house. Walk right in there and get them...

Sorry, don't work that way.
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Of course it does work that way and it has worked that way for a long time. Heard of Guantanamo Bay? I guess it's just easier to drone strike than get bogged down in all that messy Constitutional Due Process stuff, right? Btw, if they're sitting right next to the terrorist leaders, in your pretend scenario, then I'd think the American would be a minor afterthought. I think I'd rather capture the terrorist leaders and try to gain intel instead of just killing them.

Does it matter? We've arrested a crapload of AQ and other terrorist orgs in other countries and brought them to trial, convicted and sentenced. We've even killed them without the advanced knowledge of the host country (referring to OBL of course) when we could have just arrested. My point is that RussP posted like it's either kill them or they get a free pass. That's disingenuous.
You are very naive, sir.

No, I did not post that "it's either kill them or they get a free pass." Which of my words said that?

Read my post again. Here is what I said. If you make the rule that no American giving comfort and aid to an enemy in a foreign country, a traitor, having become an enemy combatant, will be targeted, the enemy will take advantage of that immunity.

Have you ever heard that our enemies use non-combatants as human shields against attack? Have you?

Our rules of engagement say we must avoid non-combatant casualties. Have you heard that? Do you agree with that rule?

My scenario is not pretend. The scenario is real. It happens every day somewhere. Bad guys use non-combatants as protection against attack. Non-combatants only work if there are a great number of them, theoretically.

Now, if the same protection can be gained with just one or two individuals, that is more convenient, more mobile. Make an American a high profile "leader" in your movement.

Lets say you, G19G20, get to say the US has a new rule that no American can be killed without due process. It doesn't matter how egregious their behavior. They can directly order an attack on US citizens. Even if the attack is carried out and many Americans are killed, they cannot be harmed without due process in an American court in the United States.

Is that what your rule would say?

G19G20, do you believe that if that rule of yours is in effect, that it is one of the Rules of Engagement for the US military, that the real leaders of terrorist organizations would not protect themselves with American sympathizers, converts to their cause?

You said, "We've arrested a crapload of AQ and other terrorist orgs in other countries and brought them to trial, convicted and sentenced. We've even killed them without the advanced knowledge of the host country (referring to OBL of course) when we could have just arrested."

Name the crapload of AQ and other terrorist organizations we have captured in other countries and brought them into the US and tried them.

The "them" that we've killed when we could have "just arrested", who were they?
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:54   #122
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All I can say is God help us if you guys trust Obama to make these decisions on his own with a little help from the people he has installed in his Administration.

He plays fast and loose with the Constitution at every turn, but you trust him and him alone to decide who lives and who dies with nary a thought to any checks or balances.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was never Obama killing any of those guys.

But you probably wouldn't understand that strikes on military targets during wartime don't normally go through the POTUS.
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Old 02-08-2013, 21:07   #123
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was never Obama killing any of those guys.

But you probably wouldn't understand that strikes on military targets during wartime don't normally go through the POTUS.
Obama approved and directed the strikes against the American citizens that we have been discussing. Hell, he has a damned kill list. Where have you been?

Look, if you trust Obama's judgement, just say so. I don't.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 02-08-2013, 21:22   #124
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Obama approved and directed the strikes against the American citizens that we have been discussing. Hell, he has a damned kill list. Where have you been?

Look, if you trust Obama's judgement, just say so. I don't.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
So, then, you admit that the answer to the question is that no, you don't understand how military orders are issued? Because the President does not sign off every time someone pulls the trigger. If so, he would never have time to do anything else, EVER.

Carter didn't do it at Desert One. Reagan didn't do it in Grenada. Bush didn't do it in Kuwait. Clinton didn't do it in the Balkans. Bush didn't do it in Iraq. And Obama doesn't do it in Afghanistan/Pakistan.

What you're confusing is approving a Rule of Engagement, not approving specific orders. Those are not the same thing.
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Last edited by WarCry; 02-08-2013 at 21:23..
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Old 02-08-2013, 21:39   #125
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So, then, you admit that the answer to the question is that no, you don't understand how military orders are issued? Because the President does not sign off every time someone pulls the trigger. If so, he would never have time to do anything else, EVER.

Carter didn't do it at Desert One. Reagan didn't do it in Grenada. Bush didn't do it in Kuwait. Clinton didn't do it in the Balkans. Bush didn't do it in Iraq. And Obama doesn't do it in Afghanistan/Pakistan.

What you're confusing is approving a Rule of Engagement, not approving specific orders. Those are not the same thing.
Whatever

If you want to parse language to make a point, knock yourself out. It just shows you have nothing else to argue.

I know you aren't saying that Obama didn't personally sign off on killing Anwar al-Aulaqi and of killing his son as well? Seriously? Are you? Because if you are, you are seriously misinformed.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 02-08-2013, 22:24   #126
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Whatever

If you want to parse language to make a point, knock yourself out. It just shows you have nothing else to argue.

I know you aren't saying that Obama didn't personally sign off on killing Anwar al-Aulaqi and of killing his son as well? Seriously? Are you? Because if you are, you are seriously misinformed.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Some guy from BFE, North Dakota that ran off to play jihad isn't the same as Osama bin Laden.

Hell, even with bin Laden, after giving the "Go" order, do you think Obama was sitting in the SitRoom with a mic tied into the ear-pieces on the SEALs frequency, telling them "Turn left there.....up those stairs..."?

It's not parsing language when it's the difference between being right and being wrong. It's called "attention to detail".
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Old 02-09-2013, 04:45   #127
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Some guy from BFE, North Dakota that ran off to play jihad isn't the same as Osama bin Laden.

Hell, even with bin Laden, after giving the "Go" order, do you think Obama was sitting in the SitRoom with a mic tied into the ear-pieces on the SEALs frequency, telling them "Turn left there.....up those stairs..."?

It's not parsing language when it's the difference between being right and being wrong. It's called "attention to detail".
You've lost sight of the subject of the thread, but you are welcome to go off on tangents if you like, secure in the knowledge that you are right.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:03   #128
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You've lost sight of the subject of the thread, but you are welcome to go off on tangents if you like, secure in the knowledge that you are right.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Cute, I'm responding directly to comments that you make and *I'VE* lost sight of the subject??

Pot, kettle, kettle, pot.

The subject of the thread remains the same - The US has authorized the use of deadly force against citizens of the US overseas that have decided they are going to be terrorist. The President approved the rule of engagement, but is not commanding troops from the Oval Office. Rhetoric and vehemence against one person doesn't change these facts.
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:25   #129
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Whatever

If you want to parse language to make a point, knock yourself out. It just shows you have nothing else to argue.

I know you aren't saying that Obama didn't personally sign off on killing Anwar al-Aulaqi and of killing his son as well? Seriously? Are you? Because if you are, you are seriously misinformed.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy


Your ignorance of how things work is showing.
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