GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-07-2013, 04:59   #1
Restless28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Solsbury Hill
Posts: 16,259
The Eminence Front of The "Middle Class"

I've had some interesting conversations with some folks who are in the "middle class". These people have vehicles financed for more than my home is worth, boats and ATV's, zero turn mowers, and large homes that are easily 5 to 10 times their gross income. They are faking "living large." It's an eminence front. (It's a put on)

Several work in the defense industry in Huntsville. If sequestration comes, the pain is going to be rough.

Those who don't work in the industry, and earn less, live just as large.

I have a feeling that the bursting of the bubble or a balck swan event will cause a shift in class structure. These middle class folks won't be able to maintain the status quo.

I imagine this scenario exists in every community in America.
Restless28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 05:42   #2
Cali-Glock
Mountain Man
 
Cali-Glock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: California Sierra Mnts
Posts: 11,765
Yeah and your local welfare mom is driving a $50k suv with $20k in rims and tires and another $5k in aftermarket stereo crap and lives in a government subsidized apartment.

Borrowing too much and living beyond your means has sadly become the brainwashed-so-called-American way.

What a change 50 years makes. In my youth my friends parents who were professionals (Drs, Lawyers, Engineers) or successful blue collar business owners lived in cheap or modest track homes, drove modest cars, purchased their clothes at Sears, took car-camping vacations in the station wagon and saved money for for a rainy day, retirement and possibly the kid's college fund.
__________________
1 Corinthians 2:2
I may be from Cali, but I ain't no yankee!

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one." - Mal Reynolds

Last edited by Cali-Glock; 02-07-2013 at 05:43..
Cali-Glock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 05:50   #3
oldgraywolf
NRA, SAF
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: N.W. Lower Michigan
Posts: 3,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post

I imagine this scenario exists in every community in America.
It does. I've seen a few of them crash and burn over the years.
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment.

definatally
rediculas
theirs'
oldgraywolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 05:55   #4
PaulMason
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post
I've had some interesting conversations with some folks who are in the "middle class". These people have vehicles financed for more than my home is worth, boats and ATV's, zero turn mowers, and large homes that are easily 5 to 10 times their gross income. They are faking "living large." It's an eminence front. (It's a put on)

Several work in the defense industry in Huntsville. If sequestration comes, the pain is going to be rough.

Those who don't work in the industry, and earn less, live just as large.

I have a feeling that the bursting of the bubble or a balck swan event will cause a shift in class structure. These middle class folks won't be able to maintain the status quo.

I imagine this scenario exists in every community in America.
The middle class has been getting hammered for decades. Since the 70s the middle class has lost pensions, health benefits, wages haven't kept up with inflation and jobs have been sent overseas. What is called middle class now - was lower middle class in the 60s/70s

Last edited by PaulMason; 02-07-2013 at 05:56..
PaulMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 05:56   #5
oldgraywolf
NRA, SAF
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: N.W. Lower Michigan
Posts: 3,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali-Glock View Post

Borrowing too much and living beyond your means has sadly become the brainwashed-so-called-American way.
So true. I'd say that the ease of buying big items on credit (without sufficient financial backing for said credit) and the inability of people to delay gratification are largely responsible. I grew up knowing that if I wanted something, I had to "save up" for it. That hasn't been a common approach for many years.
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment.

definatally
rediculas
theirs'
oldgraywolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:00   #6
Restless28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Solsbury Hill
Posts: 16,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMason View Post
The middle class has been getting hammered for decades. Since the 70s the middle class has lost pensions, health benefits, wages haven't kept up with inflation and jobs have been sent overseas. What is called middle class now - was lower middle class in the 60s/70s
They have also done it to themselves. They are not innocent.
Restless28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:01   #7
Restless28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Solsbury Hill
Posts: 16,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgraywolf View Post
So true. I'd say that the ease of buying big items on credit (without sufficient financial backing for said credit) and the inability of people to delay gratification are largely responsible. I grew up knowing that if I wanted something, I had to "save up" for it. That hasn't been a common approach for many years.
Yep. Debt makes America run.
Restless28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:15   #8
PaulMason
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post
They have also done it to themselves. They are not innocent.
How so?
PaulMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:19   #9
Restless28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Solsbury Hill
Posts: 16,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMason View Post
How so?
Seriously? Look around.
Restless28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:31   #10
Fear Night
NRA Life Member
 
Fear Night's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sweet Home Alabama
Posts: 3,853
The average American's budget looks similar to the US Government's budget. Coincidence?
Fear Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:33   #11
LEO/Dad
Navy Veteran
 
LEO/Dad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 880
My parents taught me to be thrifty.....!

I don't think young people are being taught this by their parents, especially if the parents aren't thrifty themselves. This includes budgeting and living within your means. I was listening to Dave Ramsey yesterday, and a mother called in upset with her son for borrowing a good amount of money for his New Years Eve. date!! Dave couldn't believe it, and laughed for a considerable amount of time. I am retired, but I know a good amount of people that are living paycheck to paycheck, both parents working. In most cases, it is by choice, just because of all the toy payments they must make. I was really surprised last summer when my local boat dealer owner told me that people were taking out Home Equity Loans to buy boats!! Really, putting your home at risk for a freakin boat. We are dealing with a culture of people today that are off the charts. Most probably voted for Obama.
LEO/Dad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:33   #12
PaulMason
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post
Seriously? Look around.
You said they did it to themselves. I was asking how. I don't understand what you were saying.
PaulMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:34   #13
Gallium
CLM Number 182
Charter Lifetime Member
 
Gallium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 47,557


I don't know what class I am in, but the only debts I have are taxes (property tax) and a mortgage. If I didn't pay for the car it probably is not going to make it in my driveway - ditto for furniture/etc.

One of the kids' college education is partially financed, but that was his doing and choice.

The only other thing I plan on financing is a family plot for 6-10 graves. The momz are not getting any younger.
Gallium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:39   #14
oldgraywolf
NRA, SAF
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: N.W. Lower Michigan
Posts: 3,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMason View Post
The middle class has been getting hammered for decades. Since the 70s the middle class has lost pensions, health benefits, wages haven't kept up with inflation and jobs have been sent overseas. What is called middle class now - was lower middle class in the 60s/70s
How do you figure global competition works?
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment.

definatally
rediculas
theirs'
oldgraywolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 06:50   #15
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,845


Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMason View Post
The middle class has been getting hammered for decades. Since the 70s the middle class has lost pensions, health benefits, wages haven't kept up with inflation and jobs have been sent overseas. What is called middle class now - was lower middle class in the 60s/70s
Utter BS.

You take a cop married to a nurse(or just about any 40-60K a year couple) in a medium to large city...without getting over their head, they are living the lifestyle that used to be UPPER middle class in the 60s and 70's.

People live better now. The POOR in this country live the life that blue collar folks used to live.
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:17   #16
PaulMason
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
Utter BS.

You take a cop married to a nurse(or just about any 40-60K a year couple) in a medium to large city...without getting over their head, they are living the lifestyle that used to be UPPER middle class in the 60s and 70's.

People live better now. The POOR in this country live the life that blue collar folks used to live.
True - but in the 60s and 70's it only took one wage earner to do that; now two as you say.



Do your homework - research 1960s to now

Percent of workers covered by defined pension plans

percent of workers provided with health benefits

wages & inflation

Last edited by PaulMason; 02-07-2013 at 07:30..
PaulMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:25   #17
RC-RAMIE
Senior Member
 
RC-RAMIE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEO/Dad View Post
I don't think young people are being taught this by their parents, especially if the parents aren't thrifty themselves. This includes budgeting and living within your means. I was listening to Dave Ramsey yesterday, and a mother called in upset with her son for borrowing a good amount of money for his New Years Eve. date!! Dave couldn't believe it, and laughed for a considerable amount of time. I am retired, but I know a good amount of people that are living paycheck to paycheck, both parents working. In most cases, it is by choice, just because of all the toy payments they must make. I was really surprised last summer when my local boat dealer owner told me that people were taking out Home Equity Loans to buy boats!! Really, putting your home at risk for a freakin boat. We are dealing with a culture of people today that are off the charts. Most probably voted for Obama.
I'm in sales in La, I could count the sales to Obama voters on one hand. Bad money decisions are made by left and right voters.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

Last edited by RC-RAMIE; 02-07-2013 at 07:26..
RC-RAMIE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:30   #18
Dennis in MA
Get off my lawn
 
Dennis in MA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Taunton, MA
Posts: 52,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Night View Post
The average American's budget looks similar to the US Government's budget. Coincidence?
Bullbutter! See below. Completely patently false.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMason View Post
True - but in the 60s and 70's it only took one wage earner to do that; now two.
As I said yesterday in a different thread, we all have affordable toys that NO ONE had in the 60's and 70's. How many TV's does the average house have? How many vacations that AREN'T camping at $3/night? Home in the 'burbs with 1.2acres of land and 2,000 sf of living area? Latest/greatest toys and activities for Jr? All this cost money. We didn't trade lower anything for that. We traded an at-home mom for livin large, yo.

Couple that with the skyrocketing divorce rate and the need for 1.5 households per "baby-makers" and you HAVE to have them work. Staying married is cheaper than getting divorced.


The bottom line is this: The original post is an anecdotal story, not statistical fact. Statistical fact is debt is FALLING in this country as people get MORE responsible. Just look it up. Of course, it trumps the "this country going to hell handbasket yada yada" so you have to find something else to grouse about.
__________________
The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.
Dennis in MA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:41   #19
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,818
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post
The bottom line is this: The original post is an anecdotal story, not statistical fact. Statistical fact is debt is FALLING in this country as people get MORE responsible. Just look it up. Of course, it trumps the "this country going to hell handbasket yada yada" so you have to find something else to grouse about.

The Okie Corral

Household debt is falling the last couple of years only because of recession and inability to get loans. Look at the trend over the last 30 years and explain the trend based upon you statement.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:41   #20
schild
Senior Member
 
schild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Socialist Republic of Illinois
Posts: 3,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
Utter BS.

You take a cop married to a nurse(or just about any 40-60K a year couple) in a medium to large city...without getting over their head, they are living the lifestyle that used to be UPPER middle class in the 60s and 70's.

People live better now. The POOR in this country live the life that blue collar folks used to live.
A cop and a nurse here would make 120k+.
__________________
Schild

"You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." Ayn Rand

We are all outlaws in the eyes of America.
schild is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:44   #21
Dennis in MA
Get off my lawn
 
Dennis in MA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Taunton, MA
Posts: 52,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by schild View Post
A cop and a nurse here would make 120k+.
They'd make $180K here. LOL And 80% pensions. And health care. Why are my taxes so high again??
__________________
The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.
Dennis in MA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:45   #22
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,818
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless28 View Post
and large homes that are easily 5 to 10 times their gross income.
This isnt exactly a poor decision.

1) They get a tax break and lower their income tax bracket based upon mortgage interest and property tax paid.

2) The house, including the financed part, is appreciating. As long as the appreciation is equal to or higher than than the finance interest rate, one is making money on the house. Debt that you make money on is good debt. In the financial world this is called "leveraging"

If you combine number 1 and 2, it is actually not a decision to have a valuable piece of property.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:53   #23
Dennis in MA
Get off my lawn
 
Dennis in MA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Taunton, MA
Posts: 52,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
The Okie Corral

Household debt is falling the last couple of years only because of recession and inability to get loans. Look at the trend over the last 30 years and explain the trend based upon you statement.
Oh, it's definitely not a long-term trend. We got suckered for 30 years on "debt helps the economy." But household debt is DROPPING faster than payments on said-debt would be.

Cars are flying out of showrooms. Do you really think the average 'Murican can't get credit??? And if we are in a recession, wouldn't debt payments, as a percentage of income, go up? (Is debt falling or are overall wages increasing???? Dang. Good news or . . . good news. Hmmmm.)

The number of people acting like the dufus in the OP is DECLINING, not increasing.

The only debt we have to have continued concern over is student loan debt. Because 'Murica hasn't turned the corner on "wait, this $200K piece of paper won't get me $200K more than the $50,000 piece of paper from Ayatollah State U." I'm hoping that's soon. I can't see how a Belgian Waffle Station, nice gas fireplaces and a teacher that got an article in Obscurity This Month is going to translate into a higher wage after graduation. (The BW station is my alma mater - which no longer gets any $ from me, the gas fireplace is at the library AT THE LOCAL STATE U! ARRGGGHHH!! Did I mention they have a 15M shortfall and may have to cut education. . . . because of fireplaces? Ugh.)
__________________
The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd.
Dennis in MA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:58   #24
Restless28
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Solsbury Hill
Posts: 16,259
I hope that you weren't insulting me, Dennis.

Last edited by Restless28; 02-07-2013 at 07:59..
Restless28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 08:00   #25
LEO/Dad
Navy Veteran
 
LEO/Dad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by schild View Post
A cop and a nurse here would make 120k+.
Where I live, probably 150K. or more.
LEO/Dad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:26.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,209
393 Members
816 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42