[scattershot]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

Aren't Karhrs, at least in other calibers, known for having short leades also?

I'm new to Kahrs, but I'm starting to hear more about the problem.

[n2extrm]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

My trigger was terrible and I'm not a trigger snob. It wasn't even the weight as much as the grit and creep. But, in just 100 rounds it has gotten better. I'm definately going to leave this gun with the smith and let him clean it up. I bet he can get a near match trigger out of it with the stock parts in about 5 minutes. I'll play around with some of the other 1911's that will be there to feel different trigger weights. I'm guessing I'll want somewhere around 4# or so, not too light, but definitely CLEANER on the break.

Mine came with nice checkered stocks, so I'm good with those. How do I avoid screwing up the grips screw bushings?

ETA: those MG and GD bullets might be more like ball in that the long ogive means the full diameter of the bullet is in the case. It seems there can be NONE of the bullet with a diameter of 0.452" or greater out of the case. The Rem ammo I have has only ogive sticking out, so I'm wondering if the manufacturers know that 1911's are like this and the ammo accounts for this.

Is the gun right and my ammo is wrong? I don't want to change the gun to fit ammo that isn't "correct", but then there is no way the Hornady TAP or Custom factory loaded XTP's are going to fit in this thing.

Same thing with my trigger. 4lbs is about as light as I will go. I am running the MTGs short.

Here's the 1911. There's 2 versions mil spec and GI. IIRC the mil spec has the lowered ejection port and a better lead in the barrel I do have the mill spec.








Yeah it doesn't see the gold dots, I just ran a few for function testing. I use the target load from the label above.

Actually really getting serious about maybe casting. Can't deal with the price and no availability any more. Just time and finding lead are the issue.


Some where I have the grips I bought and never put on. They are the GI grips marked US.

I never had an issue with grip bushings. Common sense don't go crazy tightening things. Some guys use small o rings under the screws or grips like lock washers to keep em tight. I just snug em once in a while when I wipe the gun down in and out of the safe.

[Steel Head]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

I agree, they should, but I don't think they will. What is the COAL of the 230 TAP if you don't mind measuring for me? If it's over 1.180", it won't fit.

Fed AE 230 ball=1.267 OAL--sits .012 below flush

Hornandy custom 200XTP 1.221 OAL---sits .008 below flush.

Hornandy TAP 230XTP 1.210---sits .010 below flush.

The 230 shocked me Bit the shorter oal,I weighed them to be sure.
The bal and XTP230's I could not push into chamber and get to stick at all,Tried a handful of both.
The 200XTP's I could get to stick about 70% of a handfull of rounds

All factory loaded.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by n2extrm

Same thing with my trigger. 4lbs is about as light as I will go. I am running the MTGs short.

Here's the 1911. There's 2 versions mil spec and GI. IIRC the mil spec has the lowered ejection port and a better lead in the barrel I do have the mill spec.


Yeah it doesn't see the gold dots, I just ran a few for function testing. I use the target load from the label above.

Actually really getting serious about maybe casting. Can't deal with the price and no availability any more. Just time and finding lead are the issue.


Some where I have the grips I bought and never put on. They are the GI grips marked US.

I never had an issue with grip bushings. Common sense don't go crazy tightening things. Some guys use small o rings under the screws or grips like lock washers to keep em tight. I just snug em once in a while when I wipe the gun down in and out of the safe.

Mine was before they had the GI and MilSpec. They had only one. I think the ejection port is lowered, judging by pics online, but I know it's not flared. I took a pic of it with my phone, but it's a Samsung and I need a Samsung cord to load them in the computer (it's not a smart phone). The cord is in my drawer. Actually, it was in my drawer before the guy who stole my sock from the dryer moved it. The wife is at work, she'll know where it is and I can post pics tomorrow.

It's kind of in-between the GI and MS. It doesn't have every feature of the MS, but it has better sights than the GI. It has some real nice checkered grips on it with no logos and that greenish parkerizing.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Steel Head

Fed AE 230 ball=1.267 OAL--sits .012 below flush

Hornandy custom 200XTP 1.221 OAL---sits .008 below flush.

Hornandy TAP 230XTP 1.210---sits .010 below flush.

The 230 shocked me Bit the shorter oal,I weighed them to be sure.
The bal and XTP230's I could not push into chamber and get to stick at all,Tried a handful of both.
The 200XTP's I could get to stick about 70% of a handfull of rounds

All factory loaded.

Thanks for running all of that down. There is no way the 230 XTP's would chamber at that length. The others I'm not sure about.

[WiskyT]

I have a box of WinUSA from about the same time as when I got the gun. While I can push then in the chamber, it takes a fair amount of thumbnail to pull them back out. I think the slide would close on them, but it shouldn't be that tight.

[Steel Head]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

I have a box of WinUSA from about the same time as when I got the gun. While I can push then in the chamber, it takes a fair amount of thumbnail to pull them back out. I think the slide would close on them, but it shouldn't be that tight.

No,it's not

Looking into the chamber can you see a taper(the leade)cut into the rifling at all?
Mine for no better words to describe it is a square.
The taper is cut as deep at the rifling bands are wide.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Steel Head

No,it's not

Looking into the chamber can you see a taper(the leade)cut into the rifling at all?
Mine for no better words to describe it is a square.
The taper is cut as deep at the rifling bands are wide.

I can see clearly into the area of the chamber in question and it looks like there simply isn't any leade. Certainly not the type that you describe yours as having.

[Steel Head]

It's not going to win any Picture of The Year awards but you can clearly see the leade from the chamber step to rifling.

This is from a Springfield RO.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Steel Head

It's not going to win any Picture of The Year awards but you can clearly see the leade from the chamber step to rifling.

This is from a Springfield RO.

Wow! You da man! I was thinking of taking a macro shot of mine and I was wondering if it would turn out well. Now I don't have to

Mine looks just like yours, except the rifling goes all the way to the headspace shoulder. There is no leade. All of that nice taper you have leading to the rifling doesn't exist. It just starts, and right at the end of the chamber itself where cartridge case ends.

I wonder if the leade is cut in a different step from the rest of the chamber cutting and they forgot to do it? The chamber itself looks to be nicely done, not that I'm an expert. So if the leade is cut with the reamer that does the rest of the chamber, I don't see how the leade wouldn't have been cut at the same time. Maybe SA thinks this is the way the chamber should be done, or at least they did 20 years ago?

Either way, the gun is going to the smith. I almost can't wait until Thursday.

[Steel Head]

Glad it helped
I'm not sure how the leade is cut.
I'm curious now and will search out what I can.
I wonder how the lack of leade affects accuracy and pressure

[Jim Watson]

I expect a mass produced barrel will have the chamber and leade cut in one pass with a reamer ground to shape.

The SAAMI specification is for a 2 deg 35 min taper from the chamber mouth into the rifling with no cylindrical throat as commonly seen in rifle chambers.

A chamber without that tapered leade is incomplete and incorrect.
You can accomodate it by seating all the bearing surface down in the case but might see leading or coppering as the bullet slams into the abrupt start of the rifling.

A real accurizing gunsmith will cut the leade and maybe even a throat* separately, either to suit the customer's ammo, or he will recommend ammunition.

*"Throating" a 1911 has come to mean grinding on the other end of the chamber for the purpose of feeding odd bullet shapes. Those old time accurizing gunsmiths would refer to that as "ramping" because they were "throating" the front of the chamber for a good entry into the rifling.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

I expect a mass produced barrel will have the chamber and leade cut in one pass with a reamer ground to shape.

The SAAMI specification is for a 2 deg 35 min taper from the chamber mouth into the rifling with no cylindrical throat as commonly seen in rifle chambers.

A chamber without that tapered leade is incomplete and incorrect.
You can accomodate it by seating all the bearing surface down in the case but might see leading or coppering as the bullet slams into the abrupt start of the rifling.

A real accurizing gunsmith will cut the leade and maybe even a throat* separately, either to suit the customer's ammo, or he will recommend ammunition.

*"Throating" a 1911 has come to mean grinding on the other end of the chamber for the purpose of feeding odd bullet shapes. Those old time accurizing gunsmiths would refer to that as "ramping" because they were "throating" the front of the chamber for a good entry into the rifling.

Boy, you aint kidding. I have a little leading just at the beginning of the rifling as you will see in the pics.

After a little reading on Stephen A. Camp's sight, I found that I probably have a two piece barrel. I don't know how that effects the reaming process. The seam is obvious on the outside of the barrel, but not the inside where it counts, so I can't tell where one piece ends and the other begins inside the chamber.

[WiskyT]

Here is the chamber. After looking at it under a magnifying glass, and taking this super-macro picture, nothing looks right about it at all with regards to the leade.

[WiskyT]

Here is the gun and a dummy round with the 230XTP loaded so it will fit the gun. I blotted out the last three digits of the SN, so don't think it's some kind of super-low number gun

Am I correct on the lowering of the ejection port?

[Steel Head]

Your chamber pic shows the lack of leade well.
Your ejection port does look a bit lower than an early gov colt.
What is the oal of the dummy round?

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Steel Head

Your chamber pic shows the lack of leade well.
Your ejection port does look a bit lower than an early gov colt.
What is the oal of the dummy round?

The dummy is 1.180" if I remember correctly. I got 1.180" to fit, but I might have gone a LRCH deeper to see if it fit better. At any rate, it's close enough to 1.180" in that picture to call it that.

[WiskyT]

I just got in email contact with the smith. He wants to see the gun and will be there Thursday, so I'm looking forward to that. He attached two targets that he shot from two different guns, both with Kart barrels which have no leade. He said the accuracy was "typical". They were 10 shot groups measuring 2.25" at 50 yards.

So it's not simply a matter of "right" and "wrong" apparently. It's probably going to be a matter of what the gun is being used for.

[SargeMO]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

I just got in email contact with the smith. He wants to see the gun and will be there Thursday, so I'm looking forward to that. He attached two targets that he shot from two different guns, both with Kart barrels which have no leade. He said the accuracy was "typical". They were 10 shot groups measuring 2.25" at 50 yards.

So it's not simply a matter of "right" and "wrong" apparently. It's probably going to be a matter of what the gun is being used for.

They should all have a leade... they are either 'blueprint' or they are not.

Photo excerpted from the '42 Blueprint


Read this before you turn somebody loose on your barrel. The important point is in the first post:

Perhaps most smiths don’t realize the chambers are not cut. It is very easy to tell if one has been done or not. For example, every Kart barrel I have fit has a bump in the chamber from the factory. It is apparently part of their barrel making process that leaves a slight raised area in the chamber. The bump is not a problem unless it is not removed. If left as is, I believe it can cause broken extractors, failures to feed and eject, not to mention accuracy suffers greatly.

Barrel Chamber Misunderstandings

Just as an aside, I take stock Rock Island, Auto Ord. etc. 1911's with stock barrels and get them holding 5 shots inside 3 1/2" at 50 yards, just by fitting a bushing, squaring the bottom lugs (when necessary) and installing a slide stop with a 0.200" crosspin.

Yes, there are ways to make them put 10 shots under 2" at that distance, but eliminating the chamber leade is not one of them. Many bullseye shooters run a 200 grain LSWC of the H&G #68 pattern, loaded to 1.250" overall, and they will not seat in a short-chambered barrel.

I'm not trying to tell you your business here, but I would simply tell the guy I wanted the chamber reamed to SAAMI or USGI specs and ask- can you do it or not? Once you get there, your pistol will run WAY better and still have all the accuracy you'll likely ever need.

[SargeMO]

Just FWIW, here's a short-chambered Rock Island barrel that gave me the exact same problem, early last year. I sent it back for reaming and you could not make it choke, after that.



http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/rock...gi-m1911-a1fs/

[WiskyT]

I finally got the chance to meet up with the smith. He actually liked the chamber. He thought I should just load short rounds to fit it. His work focuses on 50 yard accuracy. He builds about 40 guns a year with chambers like mine. He also liked the rest of the gun. He said it was tighter than what Colt has been putting out for the last few years.

He said he'd be happy to run a standard Clymer reamer in it if I wanted, so I went with that. He'll turn it by hand until so as not to cut the chamber itself any deeper. He also is putting a slight bevel on the sides of the chamber entrance to make it less likely to choke on SWC's.

He's going to peen the link pin slightly so it doesn't fall out like it does now when the gun is stripped. He also found a spot on the guide rod that is rubbing somewhere it isn't supposed to so he is going to bevel that slightly.

He thought the trigger should be left as is, 5# and no creep. He said he could lighten it up, but recommended against going any lighter for a gun that is for social work.

[WiskyT]

I got my barrel back last Thursday. One week turn around and I won't tell you the price because it was so low. This from a guy who has a long waiting list despite the fact that he builds 40 guns a year. I tried to pay him more, but he wouldn't take it.

It now chambers my reloads perfectly. I ran 50 rounds through it and it didn't miss a beat. I made a dummy up longer than I intend to load them, and it fit just fine, so I have a little slack for reliability. I also made up a dummy 230 XTP at 1.230", which I understand is the norm for Hornady factory ammo, and it chambered it easily.

He also "throated" it, similar to SargeMO's, but nearly as deep. He just broke the edge a bit on the sides rather than making it as pronounced. The gun fed 10 out of 10 SWC's I tried in it before having it tweaked, so the "throating" wasn't really needed, but he said that just by breaking that edge, it will help insure reliability with SWC's.

He peened the link pin so it doesn't fall out, and made a bevel on the rear of the recoil plug just like he said it would. He told me that the cut on the plug makes it contact the frame of the gun instead of the lower barrel lugs, which can help with accuracy.

I can't really speak to accuracy yet because I was shanking some wicked fliers. After all the years of shooting double actions and Glocks, the nice SA trigger is a bit odd for me. Even off a rest I pulled one and it was definately me and not the gun. I'll train with it some more and update on the accuracy.

[Steel Head]

Nice.

[n2extrm]

Sound like he did the right thing by you. I think you will like it if you give it some time. But then again I am a 1911 guy, so I am biased.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by n2extrm

Sound like he did the right thing by you. I think you will like it if you give it some time. But then again I am a 1911 guy, so I am biased.

I like it. It's just that for the last 25+ years I've been shooting DA with a big front sight. Now I have a front sight that is a little bigger than the GI sights and a SA trigger. Also, if I close my eyes, when I open them the gun is pointing high. So, the grip angle, sights, and trigger are totally different for me. I'm keeping them all on a piece of paper at 25 yards, it's just that in terms of group size, I do better with my G17 at this point or my GP100 shooting DA.

I figure once I get dialed in with it, I should be able to shoot the 1911 better due to it's better trigger. 500 rounds and a few weeks should take care of it.

I was surfing around for some sight ideas and it seems 1911 sights aren't a imple afair. Heinie and Novak require dovetailing. I'm going to search MGW as I saw one in a youtube video and it looks like they might make something that would work for me.