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Old 02-03-2013, 11:13   #26
deadandgone
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to the Shadow

pm sent
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Old 02-03-2013, 13:22   #27
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PM answered...
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Old 02-03-2013, 13:51   #28
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This isn't the first time we have heard of a KB with a G29 and Swampfox ammo. The last time it happened, as a result Mike created a downloaded 200 grain load at 1190 specifically intended for the 29. He was of the opinion this phenomenon was specific to the 29 and 200 grain ammunition.

Obviously this was incorrect.

Deadandgone, I am glad you are for the most part okay. It could have been much worse.

I will be interested to hear what Shadow comes up with when he pulls those bullets apart.
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Old 02-03-2013, 14:16   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Deadandgone my offer still stands about the ammo, I'd like to learn more! If you would like, you could send them to me and I would pull them and carefully document what is inside...I like doing pull-downs and understanding the dynamics that lead up to issues like you experienced. PM me if this would be of interest to further educate ourselves to what happened.

I'd even reimburse you the postage of a small flat rate mailer!
You do not want to be mailing ammo USPS, with it being a federal offense for both parties. You are stuck sending it UPS or FedEx w/ haz mat/orm-d charges.
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Old 02-03-2013, 14:37   #30
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You do not want to be mailing ammo USPS, with it being a federal offense for both parties. You are stuck sending it UPS or FedEx w/ haz mat/orm-d charges.
Last time I ordered ammo from a big store it came USPS no haz. Just reg mail.

I read the rules the other day and I did not see anything about loaded ammo. Only power and explosives. Not one word about ammo.
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Old 02-03-2013, 14:52   #31
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Off the USPS website, not sure how it will format... If anyone sends you ammo you are taking a big risk. Do your own search, I'm not making this stuff up. Empty brass and component bullets OK, powder and/or primers a BIG no-no.

Cartridges, flash 1.1G UN0049 II Prohibited

Cartridges, flash 1.3G UN0050 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, blank 1.1C UN0326 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, blank 1.2C UN0413 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, blank or Cartridges, small arms, blank 1.3C UN0327 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, blank or Cartridges, small arms, blank 1.4C UN0338 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, blank or Cartridges, small arms, blank 1.4S UN0014 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile 1.2C UN0328 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile or Cartridges, small arms 1.3C UN0417 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile or Cartridges, small arms 1.4C UN0339 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, inert projectile or Cartridges, small arms 1.4S UN0012 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.1E UN0006 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.1F UN0005 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.2E UN0321 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.2F UN0007 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.4E UN0412 II Prohibited

Cartridges for weapons, with bursting charge 1.4F UN0348 II Prohibited

Cartridges, oil well 1.3C UN0277 II Prohibited

Cartridges, oil well 1.4C UN0278 II Prohibited

Cartridges, power device 1.2C UN0381 II Prohibited

Cartridges, power device 1.3C UN0275 II Prohibited

Cartridges, power device 1.4C UN0276 II Prohibited

Cartridges, power device 1.4S UN0323 II Prohibited

Cartridges, safety, blank, see Cartridges for weapons, blank (UN0014)

Cartridges, safety, see Cartridges for weapons, other than blank or Cartridges, power device (UN0323)

Cartridges, signal 1.3G UN0054 II Prohibited

Cartridges, signal 1.4G UN0312 II Prohibited

Cartridges, signal 1.4S UN0405 II Prohibited

Cartridges, small arms ORM–D Prohibited

Cartridges, sporting, see Cartridges for weapons, other than blank

Cartridges, starter, jet engine, see Cartridges, power device

Cases, cartridge, empty with primer 1.4S UN0055 II Prohibited

Cases, cartridges, empty with primer 1.4C UN0379 II Prohibited

Cases, combustible, empty, without primer 1.4C UN0446 II Prohibited



Cases, combustible, empty, without primer 1.3C UN0447 II Prohibited

Last edited by Any Cal.; 02-03-2013 at 14:58..
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Old 02-03-2013, 15:05   #32
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OUCH! UPS is probably the way to go then...
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Old 02-03-2013, 18:56   #33
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Damn government always making things harder.
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Old 02-03-2013, 18:59   #34
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Damn government always making things harder.
That's why the postoffice is broke...
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Old 02-03-2013, 20:12   #35
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That's why the postoffice is broke...
Yep. The government can't run the post office, the DMV, or Amtrack but they think they can do a good job at managing our healthcare. Be afraid.
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Old 02-03-2013, 22:22   #36
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If shipping ammo, UPS is the only way to go. USPS is a no-go. FedEx will do it with a HazMat agreement setup, so more of a hassle.

To ship UPS the box must be marked conspicously with "Cartridges Small Arms." Also, inside a large rectangle, you must put "ORM-D". It is pretty easily described on the UPS sight.

There is no hazmat for ammo. Also you will likely need to go directly to a UPS shipping center. The outlets and shipping stores typically will not accept ORM-D packages.

Last edited by Taterhead; 02-03-2013 at 22:32..
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Old 02-04-2013, 12:11   #37
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There is no hazmat for ammo.
Oops. Thanks for chiming in since that part of my earlier statement was less right than the rest...
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:47   #38
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gun gone to Glock

I called Glock on Shadow's advice. I explained that the gun is not stock, and that there was an explosion. I told them the whole truth because I want to know if the gun is still safe. I know the frame is toast, but I want them to look at the slide to see if there is any damage there. They said send it on, they will take a look at it, and they said a new frame would run around $100. I almost passed out....I figured a new frame would be much more than that. So it is on the way there, and in about two months I should have it back. By then this thread will be buried....but I promise to let everyone know how it all turns out.

Some bullets on the way to Shadow for him to examine. Honestly, at this point, nothing would surprise me. I would just say if you have any Swamp Fox ammo....be very, very careful.


My hand is healing nicely...still hurts but it is still there. When I think about how bad it could have been....

A couple of weeks from now I'll shoot some. Will I flinch? I wouldn't bet against it. Some dry fire exercises coming soon.
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Old 02-06-2013, 13:00   #39
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Deadandgone,

I'm sure you've seen the thread where Shadow and I (and others) disassemble some "SwampFox 200gr @ 1325fps" ammunition.

I actually did the pulling and measuring on two example rounds a member sent me. Well, one of the rounds had 9.4gr LS and the other had 10.0gr LS. THESE ROUNDS WERE FROM THE SAME BOX.

Shadow and I and others have both done our own workups to try and duplicate the numbers SF attained. I stopped my own workup at 9.4gr (as did Shadow IIRC)

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm glad you weren't hurt too badly and are getting your G29 back. That SF ammo was quite hot, bordering dangerous in that particular load.

Nick
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Old 02-06-2013, 16:13   #40
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Deadandgones Swamp Fox ammo arrived today. HERE is what was inside!

Cartridgeis from Ammo Manufacture: SwampFox Ammo 165gr GDHP
BallisticsInformation: 40S&W (Too HOT)
Advertized MuzzleVelocity: 1325 fps
Advertized MuzzleEnergy: 643 ft. lbs
BrassMake/Headstamp: Star Line – Brass
BulletMake/Weight/Construction/Info;Length 0.5780”/Dia.0.400”: Speer Gold Dot 165 gr.JHP actual weight 165.6 grains (heavy crimp bullet ring 0.3900”)
C.O.A.L.:1.1225”
Primer:Nickel color
Case:Diameter 0.4215” Crimp Diameter 0.4220” Length 0.8445”
PowderDescription/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: LongShot 10.0 grains
***(2.2 gr over Hodgdon's listed data)
Pictures: Before/After disassembly:
The 10 Ring


The 10 Ring
The 10 Ring

The 10 Ring

The 10 Ring

In my non-professional opinion I feel that Swamp Fox pushed this loading too far. 2.2 grains in this smaller 40S&W casing. This led to extreme over pressures which resulted in the brass casing's failure. The over pressure of expanding hot gas blew the casing head out, which bled this high pressure jet of gas down into the magazine well. The frame was compromised before the magazine was ejected. Without having seen or observed the damaged gun or the damaged cartridges or other cartridges ion person, I might speculate that, it was possible the gas was forced into the next cartridge at the top of the magazine, which may have ignited that charge of powder as well, to further add to the damage experienced.

This was a tragic event so, I wish to thank Deadandgone for sharing his experiences with us here on GlockTalk and wish him a speedy recovery.

Those of you who have some of SwamFox's ammo, you may want to get with someone who is a handloader to get a better understanding of what you have for safety sake!
Mike Willard is no longer with us (R.I.P.) to make things right.

add data 02/07/2013
Here is the run down of all 35 SwampFox Ammo 40S&W cartridges loaded with Hodgdon's LongShot powder, as pulled-down from Deadandgone box. Once again we wish to thank him for sharing so we can learn for this incident!

13 cartridges @ 09.6 gr / 11 cartridges @ 09.4 gr / 4 cartridges @ 09.8 gr / 4 cartridges @ 09.9 gr and 2 cartridges @ 10.0 gr

10.0 gr
09.9 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
10.0 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.9 gr
09.8 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.9 gr
09.8 gr
09.9 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr

All loads were checked on two scales, the loads at 09.9 grains were for my balance beam RCBS 5-10 Scale these would have shown 09.8 on the digital because it only shows even numbers in the tenths column...
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Last edited by _The_Shadow; 02-07-2013 at 11:38..
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Old 02-06-2013, 16:15   #41
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Hodgdon's site list for the 40S&W 165 grain JHP as a max load of 7.8 grains of LongShot powder yielding 1185 fps with a pressure of 33,400 PSI
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Old 02-06-2013, 18:36   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Shadow View Post
Hodgdon's site list for the 40S&W 165 grain JHP as a max load of 7.8 grains of LongShot powder yielding 1185 fps with a pressure of 33,400 PSI
That is a big difference from 10 grains of Longshot.

Thanks for the pull down, Shadow.
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Old 02-06-2013, 23:30   #43
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That was some hot .40.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:09   #44
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Good to hear nobody got seriously hurt, but +640 ft lbs from a .40 S&W is just crazy. With all due respect to Mike, but selling this kind of ammo is insane, what was he thinking? He made a hot 10mm out of a .40. Knowing that the Glock has had the most kabooms in .40 this was just a recipe for disaster. I'm surprised this hasn't happened more often. Anther lesson learned I guess, but this could have been avoided if Mike didn't went overboard with his ++++++P loads. You don't talk bad about people who are no longer among us, but the fact is that he endangered peoples lives with his dangerously loaded ammo.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:55   #45
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Yikes!

I never even knew they offered such a load. I've worked with Longshot quite a bit in the .40 but 10.0gr for a 165gr is a bit warm obviously.

I have issue with the 7.8gr load listed by Hodgdon, but the 165gr Sierra JHP is a somewhat long JHP compared to the shorter 165gr Gold Dot. The main reason this data from Hodgdon is suspect is that the 180gr has a higher max charge (8.0gr) than does the 165gr...which is whack. But that Sierra JHP is almost as long as some 180gr JHPs. Looking at other loads, with a 165 Gold Dot somewhere around 9.0gr should be fairly close to what should be listed.

Due to the shorter OAL of the 165gr Gold Dot, I've worked up to 9.5gr in the .40, which out of the 6" G24 length KKM barrel averaged 1,485 fps/ 800+ ft-lbs. I stopped there since almost 1500 fps with a 165gr Gold Dot out of a .40 is plenty for me. However, would I want to shoot that from a stock barrel? I wouldn't without working it up in a stock barrel, but I prefer the better support of the KKM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:20   #46
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For an idea of what can be acheived safely I look at Buffalo Bore's #s, as they seem to load as hot as possible safely. Their .40 +P load is 155 @ 1300 out of a 5" barrel. Anybody claiming or getting 100fps more is doing something VERY wrong, and risking other people's health in the process.

Thanks for the pulldown Shadow. Did you pull several to check consistency?
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:03   #47
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FWIW ,
When I run the numbers in my Quickload program for the 40 SW-165gr GD and Longshot powder at 10.0gr at 1325 fps = 49,700 PSI. No wonder something blew up.
I think we might need to pay more attention to what we are shooting. A 165gr JHP in the 10MM at 1325 is medium high pressure how much more in the 40 SW.
Lets be safe out there men.


Sean

Last edited by 475-480; 02-07-2013 at 11:06..
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:37   #48
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Here is the run down of all 35 SwampFox Ammo 40S&W cartridges loaded with Hodgdon's LongShot powder, as pulled-down from Deadandgone box. Once again we wish to thank him for sharing so we can learn for this incident!

13 cartridges @ 09.6 gr / 11 cartridges @ 09.4 gr / 4 cartridges @ 09.8 gr / 4 cartridges @ 09.9 gr and 2 cartridges @ 10.0 gr

10.0 gr
09.9 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
10.0 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.9 gr
09.8 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.8 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.4 gr
09.9 gr
09.8 gr
09.9 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr
09.6 gr
09.4 gr
09.6 gr

All loads were checked on two scales, the loads at 09.9 grains were for my balance beam RCBS 5-10 Scale these would have shown 09.8 on the digital because it only shows even numbers in the tenths column...

UPDATED the previous post with this data as well...
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:12   #49
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The 9.4gr loads are BORDERLINE OK ,still over pressure but workable in a fully supported barrel.
His QC on powder measurements is sorely lacking. Kinda makes me wonder what brand powder measure he used.

Sean
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:33   #50
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The 9.4gr loads are BORDERLINE OK ,still over pressure but workable in a fully supported barrel.
His QC on powder measurements is sorely lacking. Kinda makes me wonder what brand powder measure he used.

Sean
It might be, but I don't wish to work to those levels in the 40S&W cartridges...

Did the Quickload program ever get data for the IMR800X powder? ??? LongShot is very simular by weight as 800X.
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