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Old 02-01-2013, 10:41   #201
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post

Glock's statement in the manual [warning against C1 carry] clearly underscores the inherent danger of carrying its pistols with a round chambered. IT ALSO MEANS THAT A ND [negligent discharge] RESULTING IN DEATH, INJURY OR PROPERTY DAMAGE WILL BE DIFFICULT TO DEFEND BECAUSE THE FIREARM WAS USED IN A MANNER THE MANUFACTURER CLEARLY WARNS AGAINST. This is a very significant fact that anyone carrying in C1 should think seriously about.
This important point should not get lost in the shuffle. Its also important to note that I'm not a lawyer, so this statement regarding legal consequences of a negligent discharge in C1 represents only my opinion.

I suspect the defense would be even more difficult if it was discovered that the Glock was set up with a 5# or lighter trigger pull. This might be another factor in determining the degree of negligence.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-01-2013 at 11:57..
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:38   #202
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Originally Posted by Smithers View Post
That's interesting. I tend to agree with you, particularly since I've never felt the need to even carry a gun (64).

Changing times and all that. I have a S&W 5 shot I sometimes carry and never worry about an A/D.

My G-19 is a different story. Although the need for a weapon can come upon us at any time, I tend to agree with you and keep one in the chamber dependent upon my personal assessment of where I will find myself.

Drugstore in very safe suburb = not chambered

Anywhere within Cleveland borders = chambered

Everything is subject to change
I'm from Cleveland, and if I ever visited there, I'd have one in the chamber for sure.
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Old 02-01-2013, 14:02   #203
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Please indulge one question about your example in the above post.

Does this happen often, in your judgement, or have you known of any actual case(s) where this has happened?

I ask because decisions about CC for most of us, since we are civilians, should be practical; by that I mean they should be made on the basis of likely scenarios, not abstract possibilities. I know some self defense instructors promote skill development beyond the limits of our likely experiences; such instruction would be better suited for LEOs and military troops who are confronted with different situations than we are. Your example seems to be more appropriate for a professional combatant who works in an environment where they are often the target for an intentional kill shot.

Thanks.
I would doubt if it happens very often but then again, I would not want to be the example of the rarity of this taking place. As for;

"I ask because decisions about CC for most of us, since we are civilians, should be practical; by that I mean they should be made on the basis of likely scenarios, not abstract possibilities."

My take is to try my best to envision the widest set of possibilities that I can, then use that as my guide. True, some things are much less likely to become reality than others, but it is usually those things which we either didn't plan for or consider that catch us off guard and in the case of criminal attacks, could cost us dearly.

My position on carrying in full battery or with an empty chamber is simple. I view it as a personal choice. However when the question is raised on an open forum, then the requester is game for whatever ensues.... hopefully with a decent measure of civility tossed in. In other words, the opinions will flow and well they should when such questions are posed. Still, it IS the individual's choice and decision to take and no one else's and I completely respect that.
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Old 02-01-2013, 14:10   #204
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Glock says no to condition one in the only official reference I can find, the Glock Owners Manual. So to say that Glocks were designed for condition one carry ignores the only official guidance on record.

If someone wants to carry in condition one that's fine, but the statement, "Glocks were designed for condition one carry" is simply an opinion usless someone cares to share something from Glock I haven't seen.

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Actually, there is something to the idea that not only Glock, but probably all handguns design for defense were meant to be carried in full battery. In the case of Glock, reference the internal safety systems employed in the design. When viewed in this light, it is clear that the intent was that the carrier should have a round in the chamber, ready to go.

However in the final analysis, it is up to the individual how they wish to carry their sidearm. That, and nothing else, is the real arbiter of this issue.
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Old 02-01-2013, 14:17   #205
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
This important point should not get lost in the shuffle. Its also important to note that I'm not a lawyer, so this statement regarding legal consequences of a negligent discharge in C1 represents only my opinion.

I suspect the defense would be even more difficult if it was discovered that the Glock was set up with a 5# or lighter trigger pull. This might be another factor in determining the degree of negligence.
If you pull your gun, point it at someone, and pull the trigger, all done with deliberation and intent, there is no case of a ND or an AD. Doesn't matter what the pull weight of the trigger is or anything else. What does matter is that your actions were intended and deliberate and that you had justification to do this.

As for the quote from the manual.... now I'm going to have to go down in my basement and check that out. My guess is that Glock is simply covering their butts on this. Just like all the other red printing one sees in an owner's manual for a firearm.


UPDATE TO PREVIOUS PARAGRAPH
I pulled out the manual for my primary carry gen3 G23 and looked through the entire thing for anything in red (their warnings printing) that recommends civilians not carry with a round in the chamber. I found nothing in this manual like this.
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Old 02-01-2013, 16:19   #206
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Let me do some lookin bro. I should still have the manual from my issued glock that I bought from my department when we switched to m&p
I looked in my older manual and it also says that c1 is not recomended for civilian use.
Both are on page 15 towards the bottom in red. One manual is a gen 3 and the other is for gen 3 and 4.

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Old 02-01-2013, 17:05   #207
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Whether we agree or disagree on these points, the exchange is valuable, hopefully, to others in this quandary. As you and others have said, Southern Boy, the final decision is up to each person who carries a gun. In the end, the responsibility and accountability rest squarely on each individual's shoulders.

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Old 02-01-2013, 17:29   #208
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
If you pull your gun, point it at someone, and pull the trigger, all done with deliberation and intent, there is no case of a ND or an AD. Doesn't matter what the pull weight of the trigger is or anything else. What does matter is that your actions were intended and deliberate and that you had justification to do this.
Of course you are right, but in this post you simply state the obvious.

My point about the consequences of mishandling a Glock with the result that someone died or was injured turns on the fact that the owners manual specifically advises against carrying with a chambered round. One's defense that the incident was an accident and negligence was not a factor would fly in the face of plain language in the manual. I'm suggesting one's defense in a ND liability case would be very difficult if the manufacturer's warning was ignored.
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Old 02-01-2013, 17:32   #209
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I looked in my older manual and it also says that c1 is not recomended for civilian use.
Both are on page 15 towards the bottom in red. One manual is a gen 3 and the other is for gen 3 and 4.
Wow, I totally missed that and you are correct. Of course, they are just covering their butts since they have to know that few are going to adhere to this suggestion when carrying a defensive sidearm.
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Old 02-01-2013, 17:49   #210
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Wow, I totally missed that and you are correct. Of course, they are just covering their butts since they have to know that few are going to adhere to this suggestion when carrying a defensive sidearm.
I suspect Glock is covering its butt against product liability suits stemming from people being accidentally shot due to the absence of a manual safety device. The company faced many such suits early on because police officer and civilian NDs were widespread.

When Glock takes itself out of the liability mix by putting the warning in red in its manual, the full responsibility lands squarely on the gun owner.

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Old 02-01-2013, 18:13   #211
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Of course you are right, but in this post you simply state the obvious.

My point about the consequences of mishandling a Glock with the result that someone died or was injured turns on the fact that the owners manual specifically advises against carrying with a chambered round. One's defense that the incident was an accident and negligence was not a factor would fly in the face of plain language in the manual. I'm suggesting one's defense in a ND liability case would be very difficult if the manufacturer's warning was ignored.
I'm not so sure that would enter the picture in a criminal case but in a civil case, it would not surprise if it did. However, even with a criminal case, if you live in an area where the district attorney is known to have a negative opinion of citizens carrying guns, my guess is to people like that anything is subject to presentation.


On a different note, you have brought up this same topic before and have been the target of some pretty strong comments. It is commendable of you that you managed to keep your cool and remain civil under some of the responses you received. You have a particular view of how you wish to carry and for others to chastise you for this shows their lack of character..... not yours. Opinions offered in good measure are appreciated. Those given in less than civil tongue are products of questionable minds.
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Old 02-01-2013, 19:46   #212
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I'm not so sure that would enter the picture in a criminal case but in a civil case, it would not surprise if it did. However, even with a criminal case, if you live in an area where the district attorney is known to have a negative opinion of citizens carrying guns, my guess is to people like that anything is subject to presentation.


On a different note, you have brought up this same topic before and have been the target of some pretty strong comments. It is commendable of you that you managed to keep your cool and remain civil under some of the responses you received. You have a particular view of how you wish to carry and for others to chastise you for this shows their lack of character..... not yours. Opinions offered in good measure are appreciated. Those given in less than civil tongue are products of questionable minds.
Thanks. I've enjoyed and given serious thought to your points.

I probably have overstayed my welcome on this subject. My intent has always been to provide balance to the debate. People new to firearms and CC need to carefully consider their options and consciously think about the responsibility that accompanies their decisions.

I've said all I can say, and that was probably too much. I hope the OP isn't offended that I pushed my thoughts so intently.
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Old 02-01-2013, 21:13   #213
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Actually, there is something to the idea that not only Glock, but probably all handguns design for defense were meant to be carried in full battery. In the case of Glock, reference the internal safety systems employed in the design. When viewed in this light, it is clear that the intent was that the carrier should have a round in the chamber, ready to go.

However in the final analysis, it is up to the individual how they wish to carry their sidearm. That, and nothing else, is the real arbiter of this issue.
Not so clear if you think about it. The gun is obviously designed to be relatively impervious to knocks and drops when there is a round in the chamber, but it does not necessarily follow that it is designed to be carried that way.

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Old 02-01-2013, 21:36   #214
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If you're not responsible about handling your gun and that means following the 4 rules along with a holster that protects the trigger then you're probably not ready for carry.

If you're responsible there is zero reason to carry a brick instead of a gun. Put a round in the chamber.

Of course, you are free to do as you choose as long as you don't infringe on me but I fail to see any reason beyond irrational fear to carry on an empty chamber unless you have a pre transfer bar revolver or a old design gun without drop safties and the like. In that case, I'd get a newer gun.
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Old 02-01-2013, 21:48   #215
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I find your posts very interesting.

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Did I say thanks for stopping the flapping wings?
Ahh, yes, you sure did!
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Old 02-01-2013, 22:37   #216
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Glock says no to condition one in the only official reference I can find, the Glock Owners Manual. So to say that Glocks were designed for condition one carry ignores the only official guidance on record.

If someone wants to carry in condition one that's fine, but the statement, "Glocks were designed for condition one carry" is simply an opinion usless someone cares to share something from Glock I haven't seen.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Thanks for the interesting information.

As long as a self-defense shooting was legitimate I doubt carrying with a chambered round would make any difference at all, but a trigger that had been modified --- a point raised elsewhere --- may certainly figure into an anti-rights prosecutor's decision to pursue charges against the defender.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:24   #217
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Thanks for the interesting information.

As long as a self-defense shooting was legitimate I doubt carrying with a chambered round would make any difference at all, but a trigger that had been modified --- a point raised elsewhere --- may certainly figure into an anti-rights prosecutor's decision to pursue charges against the defender.
You really are a Rocket Scientist! (I'm impressed!)

Here ya go! http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=576
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:22   #218
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Not so clear if you think about it. The gun is obviously designed to be relatively impervious to knocks and drops when there is a round in the chamber, but it does not necessarily follow that it is designed to be carried that way.

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I believe their intent was to create a design that made the gun as safe as possible but also to be immediately ready to use in the event that it was called upon. I also believe that their statement about civilians not carrying with a loaded chamber was a result of some suits filed against them by people who should have sued themselves for negligence (pun intended). Case in point.

About two years ago, a man in a area shopping center parking lot shot himself in his right leg while holstering his Glock .40&W, which I think was a model 23. He died from his wound (he exsanguinated from a severed femoral artery). His children were in his SUV at the time of his death.

The shopping center doesn't allow firearms so he had apparently removed his and put it in the glove box before going into the center. When they went back to their vehicle, the wife had to go back for something and the father stayed with the kids in the SUV. He removed his gun from the glove box and when holstering it, the gun discharged. He had enough presence of mind to call 911, but he died on the scene. Seems a shirt tail* had gotten caught in the trigger guard and as he inserted his gun into his holster, it applied enough pressure on the trigger to fire the gun.

This is something I am always aware of on those rare times I disarm (like before going into a post office). I rearm outside of my car while standing up to make certain nothing gets in the way of my firearm and in the remote chance it does and the gun discharges, the bullet won't strike my leg.

A simple slip, a careless movement, perhaps a lack of training or consideration cost this man his life.


* Now that I think about this a little more, it wasn't a shirt tail. It was a part of his leather holster that had turned in a little and caught the trigger.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:59   #219
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You are right to be concerned about the Glock trigger.

Make sure the holster material that covers the trigger is rigid, and you are good to go.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:56   #220
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You are right to be concerned about the Glock trigger.

Make sure the holster material that covers the trigger is rigid, and you are good to go.
I agree and I have a leather holster which caused my gen3 G23's magazine to slip loose because the holster managed to press the magazine catch button enough to release the magazine. Needless to say, I don't use that holster any longer.

I try to handle my sidearm as little as possible when it is on my person. When I remove it from my belt at home, the gun does not leave the holster since it is just as good of a protective device when not on me as it is when on my side.
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