GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-31-2013, 18:28   #181
G-nineteen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 206
Dang it, my emotional restraint failed. I've edited my post above to remove the offensive language. My bad.

Several times, it has been opined that without one in the chamber, you are carrying a hammer. Can we disagree like men? I realize this is the new-fangled Interwebz.

I hope I haven't derailed PhotoFeller's questions from post #176. I'd love to see the answers.
G-nineteen is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 18:44   #182
NolePhin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 16
Just found this on YouTube, and I am actually surprised this guy recommended not having a round in the chamber with glocks. He seems like he knows what he's talking about but I'm not sure I agree with him.

NolePhin is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 18:58   #183
G-nineteen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 206
Risk assessment:

1. probability of ND/AD

VS.

2. probability of a non-LE facing a lethal situation, AND not having time to rack, OR having one hand/arm disabled at the start of the engagement.

However you carry, train to become proficient and safe. ND/AD make us all look bad. This has been a public service message from...ME.

Last edited by G-nineteen; 01-31-2013 at 19:39..
G-nineteen is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 18:59   #184
PhotoFeller
Senior Member
 
PhotoFeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Midwest and south
Posts: 2,840
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by clarson_75 View Post
If safety is the issue, why not try this. Carry the gun for say 6 months with a snap cap in the chamber.(if anything happens you had planned on racking the slide anyway) The snap cap will let you know if you do something wrong. When you finally become comfortable that your safety habits fit into your daily routine, then swap in a live round.
What you suggest is a good start for someone new to CC. As proficiency progresses, the move to C1 can be made.

Often a point of debate here is that the probability of a life-threatening attack is near zero', and the common retort by C1 proponents is that "a low probability is meaningless when someone is actually attacked".

When the C1 proponent's logic is used to discuss NDs, the logic is rejected. To a statement that the probability of a ND is low, but when one occurs, someone could be killed or seriously injured, the retort is "all you have to do is keep your finger off of the trigger until you're ready to shoot; if you do that, an ND just can't happen."

The notion that NDs represent 0 probability when the mind-controlled trigger finger is properly conditioned is, in my opinion, malarkey. We are much less perfect in our gun handling techniques than many are willing to admit. Perfection just isn't possible. If someone has a different way of looking at this, I would be anxious to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 01-31-2013 at 20:57..
PhotoFeller is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 19:00   #185
GlockFanWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington
Posts: 649
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaech View Post
Yep the instructor is a glock hater
I run into this from time to time. I don't if someone doens't like Glock handguns, there are handguns I don't like too. Just be smart about why you don't like them or admit your bias.
GlockFanWA is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 19:17   #186
GreenDrake
Rip Lips
 
GreenDrake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 7,735
If one is not familiar or comfortable with their chosen weapon for concealed carry, it is my personal opinion that that person should not carry. Firearms are engineered to be carried chambered and ready. You are not quick draw Israeli-carry man, give yourself a fighting chance.
__________________
"Can you FLY, Bobby?"
P229 EDC

Last edited by GreenDrake; 01-31-2013 at 19:17..
GreenDrake is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 19:25   #187
G-nineteen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
What you suggest is a good start for someone new to CC. As proficiency progresses, the move to C1 can be made.

Often a point of debate here is that the probability of a life-threatening attack is near zero', and the common retort by C1 proponents is that "a low probability is meaningless when someone is actually attacked".

When the C1 proponent's logic is used to discuss NDs, the logic is rejected. To a statement that the probability of a ND is low, but when one occurs, someone could be killed or seriously injured, the retort is "all you have to do is keep your finger off of the trigger until you're ready to shoot; if you do that, an ND just can't happen."

The notion that NDs represent a 0 probability when the mind-controlled trigger finger is properly conditioned is, in my opinion, malarkey. We are much less perfect in our gun handling techniques than many are willing to admit. Perfection just isn't possible. If someone has a different way of looking at this, I would be anxious to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.
Injecting reason, logic, and the laws of probability into an internet forum while removing emotion and not questioning anyone's intellect or manhood. Why...that's a dirty trick

Last edited by G-nineteen; 01-31-2013 at 19:26..
G-nineteen is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 20:52   #188
PhotoFeller
Senior Member
 
PhotoFeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Midwest and south
Posts: 2,840
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenDrake View Post
If one is not familiar or comfortable with their chosen weapon for concealed carry, it is my personal opinion that that person should not carry. Firearms are engineered to be carried chambered and ready. You are not quick draw Israeli-carry man, give yourself a fighting chance.
I've been thinking about your post, and I come away with two conclusions.

To suggest that I shouldn't be armed at all if I won't carry C1 is way off the mark considering that my judgement is based on the level of competency I feel is needed to carry C1, and your's is based on a generalized notion that C1 is the only acceptable self defense mode.

With respect to guns being "...engineered to be carried chambered and ready", I recall that my Toyota is "engineered" to run well over 100 mph, but that speed exceeds my driving skill level and the legal speed limit. Should I drive at speeds that the machine is capable of or stay within the limits of my driving skill?
PhotoFeller is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 21:08   #189
zbomb
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
With respect to guns being "...engineered to be carried chambered and ready", I recall that my Toyota is "engineered" to run well over 100 mph, but that speed exceeds my driving skill level and the legal speed limit. Should I drive at speeds that the machine is capable of or stay within the limits of my driving skill?
If your life depends on it....ya.
zbomb is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 21:17   #190
VinnieG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Iowa
Posts: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I've been thinking about your post, and I come away with two conclusions.

To suggest that I shouldn't be armed at all if I won't carry C1 is way off the mark considering that my judgement is based on the level of competency I feel is needed to carry C1, and your's is based on a generalized notion that C1 is the only acceptable self defense mode.

With respect to guns being "...engineered to be carried chambered and ready", I recall that my Toyota is "engineered" to run well over 100 mph, but that speed exceeds my driving skill level and the legal speed limit. Should I drive at speeds that the machine is capable of or stay within the limits of my driving skill?
I think your Toyota analogy is off the mark bro. Your truck is capable to run 100mph but not designed for it. It would never last at that speed and rpm for long, compared to how long those trucks will run.
A glock on the other hand was designed for c1. If it was not the need for internal safetys would not be there.
I'm not sayin that you should not carry because you carry c3. Just my observation bro.
I do believe that carrying in c3 is a handy cap for anyone in a self defense situation. But the great thing is we each get to make our own choice on how we want to carry. I always carry c1 and sure as heck dont want or expect to take s-it for it. And I would not give it to you or anyone else that carrys c3.

Last edited by VinnieG; 01-31-2013 at 21:19..
VinnieG is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 21:40   #191
happyguy
Man, I'm Pretty
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: You can't get here from there!
Posts: 15,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnieG View Post
trucks will run.
A glock on the other hand was designed for c1.
Citation please.

Glocks were designed for the Austrian army. What condition do they carry in?

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
__________________
Proverbs 21:31 The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but victory is of the LORD.

"I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive at death safely."
happyguy is offline  
Old 01-31-2013, 23:33   #192
VinnieG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Iowa
Posts: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Citation please.

Glocks were designed for the Austrian army. What condition do they carry in?

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
The condition that they carry in was not listed in the original specs for the pistol. It was listed that the pistol could not fire from a shock test, I believe it was a 2 meter drop on a hard surface. So I guess you and I are both speculating on how the pistol was designed to be carried
I keep hearing people bring up how Israel carrys and now how Austria carrys. That has nothing to do with how a civilian or le carrys in this country. A soldier, I don't care what country, does not walk around in a combat zone with a c3 pistol in a holster as his primary weapon.
In this country (not a war zone) there is no known safe zone. You never know when or where a self defense situation will happen. It's two totally different things
VinnieG is offline  
Old 02-01-2013, 00:33   #193
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by NolePhin View Post
Just found this on YouTube, and I am actually surprised this guy recommended not having a round in the chamber with glocks. He seems like he knows what he's talking about but I'm not sure I agree with him.

Gun Gripes Episode 6: "Safety Issues" - YouTube
At the outset the demonstrator shows just how quickly a defender can rack the slide.

He also has good familiarity with a number of different weapon designs, and the last sentence he spoke tells us his next video will cover, " ... all the negligent discharges I've had in my life". That's another anecdotal bit telling me that experience with firearms doesn't inoculate a person from potential disaster.
__________________
Rocket Scientist
unit1069 is offline  
Old 02-01-2013, 06:22   #194
GreenDrake
Rip Lips
 
GreenDrake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 7,735
I merely stated my personal opinion, and prefaced it as such. No intent to offend those of you who do not carry in that capacity. As for me, I don't even want a thumb or grip safety anymore, just booger hook on the bang switch and one in the pipe. No bravado, just want as few facets of motion to ensure what happens if I have to use it.
__________________
"Can you FLY, Bobby?"
P229 EDC
GreenDrake is offline  
Old 02-01-2013, 07:00   #195
happyguy
Man, I'm Pretty
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: You can't get here from there!
Posts: 15,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnieG View Post
The condition that they carry in was not listed in the original specs for the pistol. It was listed that the pistol could not fire from a shock test, I believe it was a 2 meter drop on a hard surface. So I guess you and I are both speculating on how the pistol was designed to be carried
I keep hearing people bring up how Israel carrys and now how Austria carrys. That has nothing to do with how a civilian or le carrys in this country. A soldier, I don't care what country, does not walk around in a combat zone with a c3 pistol in a holster as his primary weapon.
In this country (not a war zone) there is no known safe zone. You never know when or where a self defense situation will happen. It's two totally different things
Glock says no to condition one in the only official reference I can find, the Glock Owners Manual. So to say that Glocks were designed for condition one carry ignores the only official guidance on record.

If someone wants to carry in condition one that's fine, but the statement, "Glocks were designed for condition one carry" is simply an opinion usless someone cares to share something from Glock I haven't seen.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
__________________
Proverbs 21:31 The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but victory is of the LORD.

"I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive at death safely."
happyguy is offline  
Old 02-01-2013, 07:04   #196
tnedator
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by NolePhin View Post
Just found this on YouTube, and I am actually surprised this guy recommended not having a round in the chamber with glocks. He seems like he knows what he's talking about but I'm not sure I agree with him.

Gun Gripes Episode 6: "Safety Issues" - YouTube
Since I'm sure a lot of people won't take the time to watch the video. To clarify, he said he didn't carry one in the chamber of his G19, because he uses a clip carry system of some kind, meaning the gun is hung from a clip IWB with nothing covering the chamber.

He then did demonstrate how quickly you can rack it and chamber a round. As has been discussed ad nausea, it clearly is very fast to chamber a round, when you've trained thousands or tens of thousands of times to make that second nature, and more importantly, if you are lucky enough to have one of those encounters where you can use both hands drawing the encounter.
__________________
NRA Benefactor - Life Member
tnedator is offline  
Old 02-01-2013, 08:55   #197
VinnieG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Iowa
Posts: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Glock says no to condition one in the only official reference I can find, the Glock Owners Manual. So to say that Glocks were designed for condition one carry ignores the only official guidance on record.

If someone wants to carry in condition one that's fine, but the statement, "Glocks were designed for condition one carry" is simply an opinion usless someone cares to share something from Glock I haven't seen.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
The manual says no to condition 1 for civilian use. I interpret this as c1 is ok, but a higher level of training is needed.
This is just my opinion and interpretation. I believe if they did not intend for the glock to be carried c1, the manual would have not specified "for civilian use".
VinnieG is offline  
Old 02-01-2013, 09:54   #198
PhotoFeller
Senior Member
 
PhotoFeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Midwest and south
Posts: 2,840
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnieG View Post
The manual says no to condition 1 for civilian use. I interpret this as c1 is ok, but a higher level of training is needed.
This is just my opinion and interpretation. I believe if they did not intend for the glock to be carried c1, the manual would have not specified "for civilian use".
The company may be assuming that military and police buyers receive adequate training to carry the pistol without a manual safety. Thus, the warning against C1 applies only to civilians.

My understanding is that Glock was sued by agencies and individuals in the beginning because of numerous ND incidents. That likely prompted the company to warn against chambered carry when civilians are acquiring the guns.

It is interesting that the manual doesn't say chambered carry is ok when proceeded by proper training. I wonder if the manuals provided with LEO purchases also contain the warning against C1.

Glock's statement in the manual clearly underscores the inherent danger of carrying its pistols with a round chambered. IT ALSO MEANS THAT A ND RESULTING IN DEATH, INJURY OR PROPERTY DAMAGE WILL BE DIFFICULT TO DEFEND BECAUSE THE FIREARM WAS USED IN A MANNER THE MANUFACTURER CLEARLY WARNS AGAINST. This is a very significant fact that anyone carrying in C1 should think seriously about.

Thanks for the info, Vinnie.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-01-2013 at 10:24..
PhotoFeller is offline  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:21   #199
VinnieG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Iowa
Posts: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
The company must be assuming that military and police buyers receive adequate training to carry the pistol without a manual safety. Thus, the warning against C1 applies only to civilians.

My understanding is that Glock was sued by agencies and individuals in the beginning because of numerous ND incidents. That likely prompted the company to warn against chambered carry when civilians are acquiring the guns. Product liability cases can be very expensive, especially for products like firearms.

It is interesting that the manual doesn't say chambered carry is ok when proceeded by proper training. I wonder if the manuals provided with LEO purchases also contain the warning against C1.

Thanks for the info, Vinnie.
Let me do some lookin bro. I should still have the manual from my issued glock that I bought from my department when we switched to m&p
VinnieG is offline  
Old 02-01-2013, 10:26   #200
Smithers
Senior Member
 
Smithers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
Have I not done a wonderful job of staying out of this one!
I find your posts very interesting.

Thanks for stopping the flapping wings.

Did I say thanks for stopping the flapping wings?
Smithers is offline  

 
  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:21.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 919
270 Members
649 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31