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Old 01-27-2013, 14:31   #21
wlkjr
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I tend to look at a bigger picture. The total energy of 10 or 15 10mm loads vs. 5 or 6 in .357 or .44 mag. I don't know if that would be a valid comparison.
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Old 01-27-2013, 14:40   #22
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Originally Posted by wlkjr View Post
I tend to look at a bigger picture. The total energy of 10 or 15 10mm loads vs. 5 or 6 in .357 or .44 mag. I don't know if that would be a valid comparison.
I find that bit strange, given the goals should really be a "one shot stop" If it takes you 10 or 15 shots to hit something vital then maybe you would be better off with something full auto.
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Old 01-27-2013, 15:05   #23
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Old 01-27-2013, 15:08   #24
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I find that bit strange, given the goals should really be a "one shot stop" If it takes you 10 or 15 shots to hit something vital then maybe you would be better off with something full auto.
That would be my goal and if I was always precise I would only carry one shot. Guess it's a matter of perspective.
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Old 01-27-2013, 17:30   #25
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I find that bit strange, given the goals should really be a "one shot stop" If it takes you 10 or 15 shots to hit something vital then maybe you would be better off with something full auto.
The goal is avoid ever having to defend yourself at all. The next goal is to avoid ever having to use a gun. Then the goal is not to have to shoot the gun. Then the next goal is not to have to shoot somebody. Then the goal is to stop the threat as quickly and safely as possible. That level is what you are talking about...ending the threat as quickly and safely as possible.

Generally people don't train for headshots, and generally training and SOP is not to shoot for the head in a defensive situation. High center of mass (COM) is kind of the go-to standard. As such a "one shot stop" with a handgun isn't so much a goal as it is wishful thinking that, while it has a chance of coming true, is far from guaranteed, regardless of your cartridge choice. Or, if it does happen, it's more likely to be from a psychological effect rather than physiological.

As we all know, handguns in handgun cartridges are weak and ineffective as a general rule, and real life, life-or-death situations generally lead to much lower accuracy than at the range (civilian defensive accuracy hovers around 20%). As such, all else equal, more rounds is better than fewer rounds.

And that's without getting into the possibility of multiple attackers.






In other words...the old, overused, lame accusation...be it explicit or implied...that a person who would rather have 15 rounds than 6 is a bad shot really doesn't belong here.
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Old 01-27-2013, 17:32   #26
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Personally I chose .357 magnum over 10mm. I had a Glock 20, but sold it. I have a Ruger GP100, 4", .357 magnum though.

10mm is much more difficult to locate than .38spl or .357 magnum. More expensive, too. That's the primary reason I chose the way I do.
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:53   #27
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So, this only affects hardcast bullets? Is faster = more penetration with FMJs?
It's pretty much true across the board. Hardcast, FMJ but especially JHP bullets. One of the downfalls with loading bullets warm, no matter the caliber is that when you push them beyond the velocity they're designed for, it's going to negatively affect performance.

A positive example would be 9mm bullets designed for the 9X19 and others designed for the faster velocities of the 357 Sig. Also some .357" JHP bullets are designed for 38 Special velocities or low-end .357 Mag, and then there are .357" JHP bullets designed specifically for full house .357 Magnum speed. Same with 44 Special vs. 44 Magnum and .45 Colt vs. "heavy" .45 Colt/454 Casull.

A negative example would be most all .400" JHP bullets as they're designed for typical .40 S&W velocity. When you load the .40 S&W warm, or the 10mm too, you begin to push bullets beyond what they're designed for and that can limit penetration. Now as you begin to push them faster you may gain penetration and expansion up to a point, but after that is reached, you will begin to lose penetration although expansion may increase or worse, the bullet comes apart. Like I said, some .400" JHP do better than others at higher speeds.

Same is true with loading the .45 Super/460 Rowland with .45 ACP designed JHP's. I've found that some .45 ACP JHP's don't like to be pushed much more than 1200 fps, but others can handle a little more. Some .45 Colt JHP designs can be loaded in the .45 Super/460 Rowland, but sometimes their profile makes them a poor choice for feeding. Although there are some 240-260gr designs that will work, but after that you've got 300 grainers and they're too heavy for either to shoot fast enough.

As for hardcasts, what Tiro Fijo said is right on "Hardcast bullets in a handgun are not as dependent upon velocity to fulfill their mission."
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:03   #28
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It's pretty much true across the board. Hardcast, FMJ but especially JHP bullets. One of the downfalls with loading bullets warm, no matter the caliber is that when you push them beyond the velocity they're designed for, it's going to negatively affect performance.

A positive example would be 9mm bullets designed for the 9X19 and others designed for the faster velocities of the 357 Sig. Also some .357" JHP bullets are designed for 38 Special velocities or low-end .357 Mag, and then there are .357" JHP bullets designed specifically for full house .357 Magnum speed. Same with 44 Special vs. 44 Magnum and .45 Colt vs. "heavy" .45 Colt/454 Casull.

A negative example would be most all .400" JHP bullets as they're designed for typical .40 S&W velocity. When you load the .40 S&W warm, or the 10mm too, you begin to push bullets beyond what they're designed for and that can limit penetration. Now as you begin to push them faster you may gain penetration and expansion up to a point, but after that is reached, you will begin to lose penetration although expansion may increase or worse, the bullet comes apart. Like I said, some .400" JHP do better than others at higher speeds.

Same is true with loading the .45 Super/460 Rowland with .45 ACP designed JHP's. I've found that some .45 ACP JHP's don't like to be pushed much more than 1200 fps, but others can handle a little more. Some .45 Colt JHP designs can be loaded in the .45 Super/460 Rowland, but sometimes their profile makes them a poor choice for feeding. Although there are some 240-260gr designs that will work, but after that you've got 300 grainers and they're too heavy for either to shoot fast enough.

As for hardcasts, what Tiro Fijo said is right on "Hardcast bullets in a handgun are not as dependent upon velocity to fulfill their mission."
Interesting... So, am I gaining anything if I load a bullet designed for 1000 fps to go at 1500 fps? Am I at least getting bigger energy dump, even if bullet itself falls apart? Many hot 10mm cartridges (1600 fps or greater velocity) use bullets that were designed for much slower .40 cal.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:11   #29
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It's really a 6rds vs 16rds issue more than whether one will do something the other will not.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:21   #30
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Interesting... So, am I gaining anything if I load a bullet designed for 1000 fps to go at 1500 fps? Am I at least getting bigger energy dump, even if bullet itself falls apart? Many hot 10mm cartridges (1600 fps or greater velocity) use bullets that were designed for much slower .40 cal.
You're gaining energy for sure, and something that is flatter shooting. As long as the bullet is designed to hold up at 1500 fps, you should be fine. Even if driven too fast, that doesn't necessarily mean it flat out won't work, it just means you're likely to see some type of failure, whether it be bullet failure or lower penetration, and some won't see that as a failure per say, but it is an effect.

Take a 135gr JHP for example, even at ~1300 fps it can exhibit fragmentation, push it to 1500 fps and it's going to fragment worse. I'm not really sure there is much point to pushing it much faster than that, other than just to see what happens. I've pushed them over 1800 fps in a .40 but never shot anything with it, although I'm certain it would be explosive on large pesky "rodents".

I think the 155gr and 165gr Gold Dot do pretty well at higher speeds, I think it's the shallow cavity that helps it. I've shot them out of .40's doing 1100-1200 and they do just fine, and even at 1400 fps and they seem to hold together. There is a limit to every design, it's just finding it. The 180gr Gold Dot does pretty well, but the deeper cavity Gold Dots seem to break apart faster than the shallow cavity ones, and a Gold Dot WILL break apart if driven too fast.
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:55   #31
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Interesting... So, am I gaining anything if I load a bullet designed for 1000 fps to go at 1500 fps? Am I at least getting bigger energy dump, even if bullet itself falls apart? Many hot 10mm cartridges (1600 fps or greater velocity) use bullets that were designed for much slower .40 cal.
Rifle shooters figured out that pushing a bullet faster than it was designed for was bad mugambo, when are pistol shooters going to get it?


A "bigger energy dump'' may include far less penetration than needed, over pushed bullets tend to expand prematurely

Don't get too impressed about bullets that are used in both .40 and 10mm factory loads. after all, the factory 10mm loads aren't that much hotter than the .40 loads
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:21   #32
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I no longer have a .357 Mag or 10mm, but when I had the 6" GP100 .357, some of the warmer handloads I can remember off the top of my head included a 125gr JHP @ ~1700 fps, a 158gr hardcast at around 1530 fps and a 180gr XTP @ around 1325 fps. Some factory 125gr .357's are fairly warm, the Remington 125gr JHP does almost 1600 fps from a 6" GP100. The .357 loads I used were with book charges, where a number of "warm" 10mm loads aren't.

I prefer larger bullets myself, but the higher sectional density of the .357 bullets will give them the edge in penetration, a 180gr .357 has higher sectional density than a 220gr 10mm, and there are 200gr .357's too. Then there are 16-24" barreled lever action .357's too which take it up to the next level as well, something you don't get with the 10mm.

The 10mm is loaded "lite" but so are most cartridges from the big ammo makers, and I know a 10mm can shoot a 220gr @ close to 1250 fps from a long barrel, I've personally done it, but it's an over pressure load any way you slice it. However, I load that way too in my setup, I'm just saying that often "full power" 10mm is also "over pressure" 10mm. I would say the .357 Mag and 10mm compare favorably to one another, .40 too when you throw in a 6" bbl. I wouldn't put the 10mm in .41 Mag territory myself.
A very thoughtful post. I like the super-hot .357 125gr JHP loading.
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Old 04-17-2013, 23:58   #33
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I believe the original post was about .357 Mag vs. 10mm Auto.

To that end, the 10mm Auto is slightly better than the .357 Mag in that the 10mm pushes a heavier bullet faster. Period.

...also because most 10mm Autos are pistols, where as most .357 Mags are revolvers. Revolvers tend to have a greater felt recoil impulse. This makes for slower follow-up shots.

Pistols tend to have a larger ammunition payload and are much quicker and easier to reload. The difference is exponential. A revolver starts with 5 or 6 and is reloaded with 5 or 6 for a total of 10 to 12. A Glock 20 is loaded with 15 or 16 and is reloaded with 15 for a total of 30 or 31. another reload for each brings the total for the revolver to 15 or 18 while the total for the Glock goes up to 45 or 46. So as I said, the difference is exponential.

Most malfunctions in a pistol are simple to over come, where most malfunctions with a revolver renders it inoperable.

I could go on...

As to the 10mm Auto being an equal to the 41 Magnum. No, it is not. The 10mm Auto is close but not quite on the same level. The real benefit is not in the power of the 41 Mag, but in the ammunition payload of the Glock 20 10mm Auto. It is the same argument as above, 5 or 6 rounds vs. 15 rounds. More is better.



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Old 04-18-2013, 00:17   #34
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I know this is a 10mm vs 357 thread, but the .41 and .44 keep coming up. I load my Readhawk with Hornady's 265 grain bullet designed for the .444 Marlin at rifle velocities. The jacket is thicker in addition to being a heavier bullet than the more common 240. I load 23 grains of WW 296 behind the Hornady. I've taken several black bears and moose with this load in addition to many deer and a few elk. I will also load Hornady's 300 gr XTP, but I jus plain like the 265 better. Nothing walks away from it. Oh, and I don't need 15 to 20 shots.
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Old 04-18-2013, 03:46   #35
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I know this is a 10mm vs 357 thread, but the .41 and .44 keep coming up. I load my Readhawk with Hornady's 265 grain bullet designed for the .444 Marlin at rifle velocities. The jacket is thicker in addition to being a heavier bullet than the more common 240. I load 23 grains of WW 296 behind the Hornady. I've taken several black bears and moose with this load in addition to many deer and a few elk. I will also load Hornady's 300 gr XTP, but I jus plain like the 265 better. Nothing walks away from it. Oh, and I don't need 15 to 20 shots.
That 265 .430 bullet is a GREAT one!!

Another worth a try is Speer 270g Gold Dot (Now called deep curl) SP. Its a tremendous 44 bullet we have been using in 44 pistols and carbines with stellar results! I don't know how good it would do at 3-500 more FPS available with the 444.

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Old 04-18-2013, 09:34   #36
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I have never been a real big fan of the 10mm. I just never had any interest in that caliber. Once at the range I shot a 10mm (about 25 rounds or so), nice caliber, seems very capable but as my son would say "it just doesn't make my hair blow back"!

I have owned and shot .357 magnums for many years so I have quite a history with that caliber. I guess for me it just comes down to personal preference.

I toss my vote in for the .357 magnum... just because.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:03   #37
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Oh, and I don't need 15 to 20 shots.
The thread is about .357 Magnum vs. 10mm Auto for Home Defense and Self Defense. This is not a thread about handgun hunting with the .44 Magnum. And while it is great that you don't need 15 or 20 rounds for hunting with your super awesome pet load in .44 Magnum, we are typing about protection of one's self from stuff like home invasion... where there could be multiple bad guys trying to bum rush your front door and/or back door. Last year, five bad guys rushed a home during a home invasion. Three went in the front and two busted down the back door. I don't know about you, but I don't want to ever be in that type of event, but if I am, I don't want a big heavy revolver when I could have a modern Glock semi-auto.


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Old 04-18-2013, 11:27   #38
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The thread is about .357 Magnum vs. 10mm Auto for Home Defense and Self Defense. This is not a thread about handgun hunting with the .44 Magnum. And while it is great that you don't need 15 or 20 rounds for hunting with your super awesome pet load in .44 Magnum, we are typing about protection of one's self from stuff like home invasion... where there could be multiple bad guys trying to bum rush your front door and/or back door. Last year, five bad guys rushed a home during a home invasion. Three went in the front and two busted down the back door. I don't know about you, but I don't want to ever be in that type of event, but if I am, I don't want a big heavy revolver when I could have a modern Glock semi-auto.


Well if there is only 5 of them.......Game on Redhawk LOL.
Think Mossberg 590 with a speed feed stock and alternate loads of buckshot and goose loads.
But I am not aware of anyone hosing 5 masked intruders in one event, except for Ralpie in Christmas Story with his Red Ryder BB gun when he held off Black Bart and his gang.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:26   #39
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In terms of reloading, unless I have a magazine loaded and ready to go, I'm SoL compared to a revolver, speed loader handy or not. I know my father, a 25 year lawman can drop a spead load in his python faster than most of his coworkers could get their autos reloaded and ready to fire.
Reloading advantages are a moot point unless you're in a very long and drawn out situation.
Other than that, he has his .357 Mag Python, I have my G20., both running Underwood now.

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Old 04-18-2013, 13:03   #40
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Comparing the .357 magnum to a 10mm is like comparing an El Camino to an F-350 4x4. Sure, they both have four wheels, a pickup bed, and can haul sheets of plywood, but one is capable of much more when used to its full potential. The 10mm can do anything the .357 can do, as well as do SO MUCH more if you want it to. Sure, you can load a 10mm down to .357 magnum performance levels, but you can also load it up to .41 magnum performance and be within SAAMI spec, or you can go a little "over book" and be solidly into .44 magnum territory. Set up with a fully supported chamber and loaded properly, a 10mm can chuck 200gr hardcast lead at 1400-1450 fps without getting pressure signs. You CAN'T do that with a .357.
+1 on that.
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