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Old 01-25-2013, 17:41   #101
Lone Wolf8634
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Originally Posted by RJ's Guns View Post
Instead of vandros focusing on "fine motorskill", I would suggest that he practice more so that drawing a handgun in a safe manner, such as you suggested, i.e.; “PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target” becomes a matter of “muscle memory”.

That type of muscle memory is so engrained in me, that I do not even think about it. It seems to me that vandros has been practicing the wrong thing.

I do find it useless to waste the time try to change someone like vandros’ opinion or way of thinking on this matter. It reminds me of a gun-grabber and how intransigent they are about how dangerous they perceive firearms to be.

RJ
This. It looks, feels and sounds foolish and mall ninjaesque (yes, I make up words) but I have practiced drawing my gun properly from my IWB, shoulder holster and BH Serpa thousands of times each. And each time I do it I make a point to follow the "Booger hook off the bang stick" rule.

If it becomes so ingrained that you cannot force yourself to place your finger in the trigger guard until you're on target....you're almost there, practice a bit more.

It also has the advantage of informing you what the limitations of time and position are in reference to your chosen carry method and cover clothing.
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Old 01-25-2013, 17:54   #102
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Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

IGF
Well, heck, why not just lock every thread? Shucks, why even have a discussion forum at all? You can find opinion on virtually every topic via Google that's in old forum threads, Twitter or blogs/articles.

I think we should petition GT to have an "auto-close" feature five minutes after any thread is created. /sarcasm

Ok, sorry, shouldn't have done it, but it's a pet peeve of mine when the forum police want to dictate which topics are worthy of discussion on a DISCUSSION forum.

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It also has the advantage of informing you what the limitations of time and position are in reference to your chosen carry method and cover clothing.
I wanted to highlight this part of your post. It was all good, but wanted to bring attention to this. Far too often people practice, or simply assume, the best case scenarios. What happens when you have a concealment garment and winter coat? What about when you wear tucked shirt (assuming you do)? What about when you are sitting? In the car with the seat belt fastened?

Each of these, and many other situations, create completely unique draw scenarios, and take varying amounts of time. If you are seated and your shirt is too long, you can be sitting on it, and might not be able to rip it up in a clean ripping motion. There are so many factors.

So, whether you are practicing with an unloaded gun, or a Blue rings gun that is the same model as your gun (good overall, but doesn't properly replicate weight), you need to not only make the general draw stroke second nature (start here), but then in addition to continuing to practice to not lose the draw stroke, you need to start practicing drawing from less than ideal positions, clothing, etc.
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Old 01-25-2013, 17:58   #103
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Carry chamber empty. That way you'll look like a bad ass racking the slide in front of the bad guy right before he shoots you. :rolleyes:
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Old 01-25-2013, 18:06   #104
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Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
Several advantages for chamber carry plus a few disadvantages.

1) Simplicity. No need to add another step to get the weapon in action.

2) Immediate first shot in the shortest time period, especially from retention position (that is grabbing distance.)


3) No need for two hands to chamber. You may have one hand hurt or busy and not be able to use two hands.

Grappling with an attacker also makes chambering with two hands rather tough. Opponent may slam you to the ground, or grab the weapon, or just punch you while you try to chamber a round.


4) When under pressure you might short stroke the action and jam the weapon.

The downside is that if you forget the gun is loaded you can pull the trigger and have a AD/ND (but then, just KYFFOTFT till the weapon is on target.) Yes there are AD/NDs every year. No doubt many have their weapons chamber loaded, but then many are ‘cleaning’ their weapons and well, who knows what state their weapons was really in.

Now chamber empty (C3) has a few advantages.

1) A gun snatch will give you a few seconds for the BG to react (you hope) to get the weapon back.


2) If you have kids, and the slide is hard to rack, it's less chancy of they get the gun somehow (but then I feel you should just pick the gun up, ok.)

3) If your gun is not drop safe, then chamber empty is the best way to carry.

4) No safe way to carry the weapon (lack of holster, poor holster, etc..)

5) If you tend to take your gun out and play with it instead of keeping it holstered then C3 might be a better way to carry. (not kidding, there are people that do mess with their weapons like that.)

Overall, chamber empty is an inferior technique for most people.

There are some where it serves a purpose like having the weapon hidden around the house and you have time to chamber a round, but for most, chamber loaded is the better technique for a defensive handgun.

Now why is C3 inferior?

Because of the extra steps one has to take that mostly require two hands under very stressful conditions.

Yes I am aware you can chamber one handed but can one do this quickly and reliably adverse conditions? I do mean quick and reliable, say when grapping with an attacker? Or with various simi-autos that are produced now?

Or in the rain? Or while moving? I doubt it.

One doubts it, right? Doing a one handed rack on a square range on a sunny day isn't the same thing as on the street when things are going down hill quickly.

Is chamber empty safer to carry in the light of ND/ADs?

It is difficult so see how it is safer if you keep the weapon in a proper holster that covers the trigger guard and has adequate retention (in case of a fall or such) and don/doff with the weapon in the holster.

That way the trigger cannot be pulled in any way.

But wither one carries their weapon C1 or C3, it is very important to train to be safe.

If you cannot keep your weapon holstered until needed, don't carry C1, and if you tend to fumble chambering a weapon fast, don't carry C3 (and for BOTH C1 and C3, if you can't keep your finger off the trigger until the need to fire, leave the gun home!) Training is the most important part.

Ignorance is what causes AD/NDs, not the state of the weapon.

Deaf
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Old 01-25-2013, 19:04   #105
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This subject has been beaten to death on every forum etc.Bottom line anyone who fears caring with one in the chamber.? I strongly suggest that they start caring a Revolver.? Case Closed.
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Old 01-25-2013, 21:56   #106
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My suggestion as some have already noted is for you, meaning any poster or reader of this post, to PRACTICE!!! I do not care if you want to carry chamber empty, or loaded. Just practice whichever technique you plan to use until it becomes an ingrained memory.

My primary carry is a G22. My primary and secondary competitive guns are a 2011 and a 1911. I am so used to swiping the safety off that I try to take one off on my Glock. This translates to my thumb coming down into position as my strong hand grips the gun in a manner that will wipe the safety off even though it is not there.

My 2011 is competition only. My 1911 is easily a carry gun. I would have no problem carrying my 1911 because the muscle memory is there to draw the gun, remove the safety, and then place my finger on the trigger as it indexes on the target for an active engagement situation, or along side the frame when dealing with a non shooting situation. As long as I have no intention of firing the gun my finger is on the frame. When I plan to fire it subconsciously drops into place on the trigger. This is in a large part due to thousands of repetitions over a 20 year + time span. So do things however you want, but practice the hell out of it.
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Last edited by Poppa Bear; 01-26-2013 at 00:12..
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Old 01-25-2013, 23:38   #107
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One in the chamber and DON'T call it a CLIP! It's a MAGAZINE!
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:30   #108
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I'v already stated my own opinion and preference for one up the snout earlier. However, there is another alternative for folks who don't want to carry with a round in the chamber. However, it's not a Glock.

There are a number of DA/SA pattern handguns out there that have the true safety lever. Sig would be an example of a decocker and Beretta B92F an example of a safety/decocker.

For those who don't know the details, a DECOCKER safely decocks the hammer and the spring returns the decocker, trigger and firing mechanism to it's ready DA position. Pull trigger and gun fires DA mode.

A SAFETY lever decocks the hammer, disconnects the trigger and the lever then remains in the down position (no spring loading). Pull trigger and nothing happens, also a steel block remains between the firing pin and hammer. To fire, the SAFETY lever has to be manually moved upwards and the trigger pulled.

In other words, if you don't like a live round chambered, a DA/SA with a true safety would effectively give you the same level of comfort as an empty chamber. The trigger is disconnected and the steel block is in place. All it takes is a thumb flick up to fire, not a racking of the slide.

This type of gun is popular with some guys that work corrections, bookings or other jobs that require the person to be armed (safety on/down), but in close proximity to bad guys that may want your gun. Of course, many shooters don't like DA/SA guns so this is not an option.

While these types of discussions are always interesting, civilians are fortunate enough to have a wide range of individual choices. You get to make yours and I get to make mine, which is the way it should be.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:39   #109
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Carrying a round in the chamber has a tactical advantage and is okay if you practice gun safety religiously.

At the moment I carry with an empty chamber because I don't have exclusive access to the gun safe, and my assessment is that the increased safety in administrative handling from gun safe to person is worth more than the reduced safety of needing to chamber a round in a hypothetical encounter justifying and necessitating deadly force. But that's just me and YMMV. This is a temporary arrangement and I shall soon go back to a normal safe.
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Old 01-26-2013, 19:26   #110
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Originally Posted by COLDSTEEL165 View Post
This subject has been beaten to death on every forum etc.Bottom line anyone who fears caring with one in the chamber.? I strongly suggest that they start caring a Revolver.? Case Closed.
Sir, you win the Internet this evening. Good post.

And I concur. There are quality revolvers from major manufactures in every (ok, just about) caliber. Get a good revolver and a good holster and take comfort in having 5-8 shots ready to go without the need to "chamber a round".

I carry a Kahr CM9 in a Desantis, strong side hip pocket. I always have 1 in the chamber. I try not to "handle" the firearm except to take the whole rig (holster and pistol) out of my pocket in the evening and to put it back in my pocket the next morning.

That being said, I pocket carried a j frame for 3 years and never felt under armed.
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Old 01-26-2013, 20:19   #111
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I never had and never will have round in the chamber - instead I practice racking the slide when dryfiring. Racking slide instinctively becomes as quick/smooth as drawing from the holster. The time it takes me to take the gun out, rack the slide, and place sights on target is minimal since the gun follows the same trajectory out of the holster and on target without slowing down. Racking the slide takes place while the gun is moving to the target.

My rationale - I want to guarantee no AD due to operator error and I don't want to shoot myself in the hip when the adrenaline dump begins and your fine motor reflexes go out the window making you likely to accidentally place finger on the trigger and squeeze the trigger without realizing you are doing this. Some might argue: Practice keeping the f@$#&ng finger off the trigger. And, I do. But, I want an extra precaution for the flight/fight episodes.

If not cambering round works for Israeli military - a superb force operating in some of the most challenging/dangerous environments - it is good enough for me.

But you need to practice (and practice, and practice) racking the slide. As a very useful bonus, being able to quickly rack the slide makes you faster when clearing malfunctions.

Good luck with that.
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Old 01-27-2013, 16:37   #112
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This topic is just more than old. Hey, if you are going to carry a Glock for self defense for God's sake have a round in the chamber. The weapon was designed for this. If you think that you might have to rack one one in the chamber you are a complete moron. Sorry for being so blunt but how the hell else could I be.
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Old 01-27-2013, 16:48   #113
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I carry with one in the chamber and a full mag. Former Deputy Sheriff.
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Old 01-27-2013, 16:57   #114
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The weapon [Glock] was designed for this [one in the chamber]. If you think that you might have to rack one one in the chamber you are a complete moron.
Your wisdom is automatically cancelled by your ignorance.
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Old 01-27-2013, 17:32   #115
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Yes

Yes...
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Old 01-27-2013, 17:49   #116
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Oh God, not again!


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Old 01-27-2013, 17:51   #117
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If your that worried about, maybe you shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place....
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Old 01-27-2013, 18:06   #118
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Old 01-27-2013, 18:12   #119
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Would you carry a revolver unloaded? Same thing really.
Not even close.

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Old 01-27-2013, 18:59   #120
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Jerry could carry one unloaded. Of course anyone that can do 6 reload 6 in 2.99 seconds is not your normal revolver guy. LOL
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