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Old 01-25-2013, 08:55   #76
chemboy
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Originally Posted by ArlenGunClub View Post
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
I always CCW a Glock and I always carry 'hot'.
Sole reason for that is in a CCW scenario you have to react to the assailant-doesn't leave much time to rack the slide back to chamber a round.

I don't want to have to worry about having to manually chamber a round when I have a guy wanting to kill me.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:07   #77
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Originally Posted by janice6 View Post
A neighbor girl has a permit to carry (she got hers with my family a while ago) and told me she was very uncomfortable about carrying a loaded gun (she has a S&W 642 .38 Special) She said she was fearful that since she wasn't used to carrying the gun, she worried she might do something to cause it to fire unintentionally. She has served a hitch in the Air Force so she is hardly timid.

She works in health care and goes to some seedy areas of town and has many shifts during the dark hours. I worry about her unarmed. She is our "fourth daughter, but by another mother". I suggested she make a special effort to carry her pistol unloaded, all the time she is home, everyday, in a proper holster, until she feels comfortable with it, her trigger discipline and handling of it. When she is comfortable that it is becoming second nature to deal with it properly and safely, she can then do the same with it now loaded.

She also asked to come with me to the range often, to gain more confidence in her ability with it. This is a great excuse for me to go shoot also. I love to go shooting. My wife, not so much.

When she believes it is safe for her to carry a loaded pistol all the time, carry it outside every waking moment from then on. You will get so that it is a physical constant, an extension of your body, and you will feel it is no hindrance at all in daily functions, but you always know it is there when needed.

If you live with your firearm, you must respect it, and the responsibility that goes along with it. Then you will not worry about unintended consequences.
Well said, and sensible advice. Everyone new to CC would do well to follow this plan.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:17   #78
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I'm obviously in minority in my position that one should not chamber when carrying, and that's fine. A lot of knowledgeable folks disagree with me. A lot of knowledgeable folks (i.e., Israeli military) agree with me.

It seems folks disagreeing with me assume they will operate their firearm when adrenaline dump begins in exactly the same way that they do during their range training. The maxim I agree with is: You fall back on your training when SHTF and you are attacked. BUT, this does not mean you'll perform EXACTLY like you've trained when flight/fight reflex takes a hold of you. Just ask all those police officers who had NDs when placed under stress.

Racking slide takes me about 0.2 second, and it takes place while the gun is being moved to target. If you so concerned about this 0.2 second, perhaps you should have bullet-proof vest on, have helmet on, have an AK47 with 100-rounds drum with round chambered and have the weapon always in your hands ready to go. And even that will not address all possible scenarios fully.

Again, all your guys' scenarios are valid and definitely worth pondering. And careful analysis should always be part of each of our individual threat assessment. I see how you all want to be prepared for these scenarios, and I appreciate that. But round in the chamber does not address all possible scenarios. If we follow the logic of wanting to address every possible contingency, then having a loaded gun in the hand is even better than simply having a holstered weapon with round chambered. Having an AK in your hands is even better than Glock. Sitting in a tank is even better than having an AK. See where our natural desire to address all possible contingencies can lead us?

Conventional wisdom here seems to be that a round should always be chambered when carrying glocks. It also seems conventional wisdom that NDs are a normal occurrence when under stress - especially when holstering/unhostering. I just can't accept this. After reading numerous volumes on the matter, participating in training, and carefully evaluating my options, I choose not to chamber. I just don't feel like having my hot-loaded 10mm HP travelling down my leg would improve my day - as a result of me underestimating the intensity of physiological and psychological response to deadly threat.
You do make a couple valid points. The one that I disagree the most with is your Israel military reference that you have used a couple times.
I have not studied their training or carry methods, but I guarantee that they are not operating in a war zone with empty hands and an unchambered gun in their holster. They will have their primary weapon in their hands and ready to go.
A civilian walking down the street with their family is a lot different than a military man operating.
There is a slight difference in the training that they get also
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:24   #79
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To add to the scenarios. You can draw and rack while laying on your back and it takes no extra movement or time? How about when there is no time to present your weapon and firing from the side immediately after drawing is the only option? Your weak arm is incapacitated because someone else got off the first shot? You're carrying a child? You feel 100% ready in ideal situations. Ideal situations rarely happen in a gun fight. It is up to you though. My advise is go take a defensive pistol class where they put you in real life scenarios and see how adequate your system is.
I hear you, bro. And, I've taken the training you refer to (my instructor, btw, was in agreement with you). But, here's my scenario for you: You are startled by an attack, you rush to pull out your pistol with round in the chamber, because your fine motor reflexes are shot to hell, as you are pulling out your gun from the holster you accidentally shoot a hot bonded JHP into your thigh severing your femoral artery. As you are recovering from the shock of having just shot yourself, you realize that you will bleed to death in the matter of minutes. As you ponder your ill fate, the BG, shoots your wife, shoots you, takes your gun, takes your wallets and gets away. Is this scenario unlikely? I don't think so, based on how many negligent discharges occur to police officers who are hostering/unhostering their handguns under stress.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:32   #80
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I think this is the most civil discussion of this topic I've had the pleasure of following. Good thoughts., respectful push backs, well articulated positions, agreement to disagree...this is called adult behavior.

This is a well-worn subject, but folks new to CC benefit from being personally involved in the debate.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:44   #81
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I wouldn't bother carrying a gun if your scared to carry one in the chamber.

If attacked you'll be lucky to have time to unholster a weapon, let alone charge it at well.

Last edited by AR15 guy; 01-25-2013 at 09:47..
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:46   #82
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Originally Posted by ArlenGunClub View Post
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
I recommend keeping one the chamber and the rest in your magazine or at the very least all in the magazine. It you keep them all on a clip, you have to remove the rounds from the clip, load them in your mag, insert the mag in a firearm, and then rack to slide to be ready. When seconds count, you are only a minute from getting your pistol operational by keeping your rounds on a clip
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:48   #83
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Snap Cap in the chamber....
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:52   #84
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:59   #85
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I'm just trying to articulate my position clearly and forcefully, and push back a little against conventional wisdom on this forum. Don't mean to be offensive/disrespectful to anybody's preferred method of CCing. And, I'm ready to be persuaded by well reasoned arguments (not the ones like: "Having pistol without a round in the chamber is the same as carrying a hammer").
As far as well reasoned, reasons, I think it boils down to this (to summarize some of my long winded posts.

1. Time can be a factor, and even the fraction of a second (under ideal conditions) it can take to chamber a round, might be the difference between successfully defending yourself and those under your care and being killed or grievously wounded.

2. Racking the slide is something that can go wrong (as someone pointed out this morning in this thread). While any gun could have a failure to pickup the round and go into battery when trying to speed-rack the slide, certain guns like Kahr's have a great likelihood of failing in this regard (where a Glock is typically pretty forgiving).

3. The number one flaw in the logic that "it only takes me .2 seconds to rack my slide while bringing the gun on to target" is that it assumes you will have both hands available to perform said function. In training or in front of the mirror, of course you will have both hands. In real world self defense situations, you are VERY likely to be using your off hand (left hand if you are right handed) to hold off an attacker/maintain separation, while you draw and point fire from the hip/side of stomach/chest location.

This is the reason that it is common, if not almost always done, in self defense training courses to practice drawing and firing at close range, with your off hand held out, palm forward simulating what you will be doing when a guy 3' feet from you about to pass you, pulls a knife or in some other way launches an attack.

This last point, point three, is where all of the "it only takes a fraction of a second to rack my slide" logic completely falls apart. The ONLY way this logic holds up is to assume that the odds are you will never have to pull a gun in self defense, and therefore, having the gun useless in x (40, 50, 70) percent of the situations where I would need to use a gun in self defense is ok, because the odds are I will never have to use my gun to defend myself.

As has been discussed in this thread, and as I have said, everyone has their comfort level, and that is a VERY important consideration. If a person feels unsafe with a chamber in the round, they shouldn't carry one, because that nervousness will likely make them more likely to have an accident. That said, nobody that carries with the chamber empty should be under the incorrect belief that it doesn't greatly impact their ability to defend themselves or those under their care, because the simple, and indisputable fact is that it does greatly reduce your ability to defend yourself. Not an opinion, that's a fact.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:05   #86
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I hear you, bro. And, I've taken the training you refer to (my instructor, btw, was in agreement with you). But, here's my scenario for you: You are startled by an attack, you rush to pull out your pistol with round in the chamber, because your fine motor reflexes are shot to hell, as you are pulling out your gun from the holster you accidentally shoot a hot bonded JHP into your thigh severing your femoral artery. As you are recovering from the shock of having just shot yourself, you realize that you will bleed to death in the matter of minutes. As you ponder your ill fate, the BG, shoots your wife, shoots you, takes your gun, takes your wallets and gets away. Is this scenario unlikely? I don't think so, based on how many negligent discharges occur to police officers who are hostering/unhostering their handguns under stress.
If you have practiced PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target, it isn't a "fine motor skill" issue.

If you ever have to draw your weapon in self defense, the odds of you severing your femoral artery vs. the odds that you will need to use your off hand to fend off an attack are not even in the same realm of possibility. One, the latter, is a routine factor when drawing a weapon in self defense, and the other is a contrived rationale for not carrying one in the chamber.

Your artery scenario would only be a realistic scenario for someone who is improperly (or not at all) trained (self or instructor or both) and is in the habit of putting his finger inside the trigger guard as the gun clears leather. If a person is doing that, and their training level is that poor, then I agree with you of the dangers. Short of that lack of training, your scenario is simply a far fetched reach/justification and you are probably as likely to have your skull bashed in from blue ice falling off an airplane.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:14   #87
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On a more serious note, if you are not yet comfortable carrying a round in the chamber, it's okay. This usually means you are not yet confident in either the pistol not firing by itself or in your own firearm handling. This is what I tell people to do to overcome this. It's always worked. Get a quality holster that protects the trigger and completely covers the trigger guard. I can not express enough how important a quality holster is to carrying chambered with guns without manual safeties. With your pistol unloaded, cocked the gun, and then insert your mag. Carry like this, unchambered, for a month or two(or ever long it takes to get comfortable.) Every day at the end of the day inspect you pistol to make sure the trigger isn't depressed. It won't be. Glocks don't go off by themselves if you don't monkey with the internals too much. If it ever is. You did something wrong and need to re-evaluate your firearm handling skills as you are not ready to carry a firearm. The idea is, day after day, month after month if need be, you will notice the trigger doesn't and won't just depress by itself. Once you see this and are comfortable, start carrying one in the pipe. I actually did this to myself when I first started carrying a Glock. I grew up and was trained on firearms with manual safeties and uber safe gun handling and rules. I wasn't sure of a platform without manual safeties. This is how I initially over came that. Now I prefer no manual safeties.I think a lot of people use them almost as a crutch for poor firearms handling and using piss poor holsters. Eventually you need to carry chambered or you are crippling yourself. I hope this helps you out.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:25   #88
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As far as well reasoned, reasons, I think it boils down to this (to summarize some of my long winded posts.

1. Time can be a factor, and even the fraction of a second (under ideal conditions) it can take to chamber a round, might be the difference between successfully defending yourself and those under your care and being killed or grievously wounded.

2. Racking the slide is something that can go wrong (as someone pointed out this morning in this thread). While any gun could have a failure to pickup the round and go into battery when trying to speed-rack the slide, certain guns like Kahr's have a great likelihood of failing in this regard (where a Glock is typically pretty forgiving).

3. The number one flaw in the logic that "it only takes me .2 seconds to rack my slide while bringing the gun on to target" is that it assumes you will have both hands available to perform said function. In training or in front of the mirror, of course you will have both hands. In real world self defense situations, you are VERY likely to be using your off hand (left hand if you are right handed) to hold off an attacker/maintain separation, while you draw and point fire from the hip/side of stomach/chest location.

This is the reason that it is common, if not almost always done, in self defense training courses to practice drawing and firing at close range, with your off hand held out, palm forward simulating what you will be doing when a guy 3' feet from you about to pass you, pulls a knife or in some other way launches an attack.

This last point, point three, is where all of the "it only takes a fraction of a second to rack my slide" logic completely falls apart. The ONLY way this logic holds up is to assume that the odds are you will never have to pull a gun in self defense, and therefore, having the gun useless in x (40, 50, 70) percent of the situations where I would need to use a gun in self defense is ok, because the odds are I will never have to use my gun to defend myself.

As has been discussed in this thread, and as I have said, everyone has their comfort level, and that is a VERY important consideration. If a person feels unsafe with a chamber in the round, they shouldn't carry one, because that nervousness will likely make them more likely to have an accident. That said, nobody that carries with the chamber empty should be under the incorrect belief that it doesn't greatly impact their ability to defend themselves or those under their care, because the simple, and indisputable fact is that it does greatly reduce your ability to defend yourself. Not an opinion, that's a fact.
I agree with your point that one-handed shooting is a very likely scenario. It is a VERY good point, based on substantial amount of statistical data.

I disagree with you, and others, on one issue though: You talk about being "comfortable" vs. "uncomfortable" having a round in the chamber. And some talk about learning to be comfortable by carrying weapon with a round in the chamber when they are in their home. I agree with you that you want to reduce your nervousness when it comes to handling your weapon. What I disagree with is the sentiment that your being "comfortable" carrying a chambered round is something like being comfortable hitting on women in a bar, or being comfortable asking raise from your boss. The prescription for CCing you seem to be making is: Practice, and with time you'll get comfortable with the idea of carrying a round in the chamber. The important issue here (which nobody has addressed so far) is the adrenaline dump effects: blood pressure shoots up, hands shaking uncontrollably, heart rate shoots up, breathing rate increases, fine motor reflexes are gone - all of which increases the chances of handling your weapon in less than ideal fashion - no matter how much you train. There is no disputing the fact that the more you train, the less likelihood of negligently discharging the weapon. But, there is also no disputing the fact that adrenaline dump makes you less proficient in handling your weapon safely (in which case adding a 2nd hole to one's butt or shooting one's hip becomes quite possible, if not likely). Just my 0.02.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:30   #89
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This was discussed several years ago when I went through the police academy. It really makes no sense to not have one chambered when you're carrying for personal protection. As quick as a dangerous threat can come at you... a lot can happen in the time it takes to draw... charge the weapon... then get a shot off. But, to each his own... it's your gun & your choice to carry however you want to. For those of you who do not carry chambered... good luck with that if you are ever instantly and unexpectedly assaulted.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:49   #90
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I agree with your point that one-handed shooting is a very likely scenario. It is a VERY good point, based on substantial amount of statistical data.

I disagree with you, and others, on one issue though: You talk about being "comfortable" vs. "uncomfortable" having a round in the chamber. And some talk about learning to be comfortable by carrying weapon with a round in the chamber when they are in their home. I agree with you that you want to reduce your nervousness when it comes to handling your weapon. What I disagree with is the sentiment that your being "comfortable" carrying a chambered round is something like being comfortable hitting on women in a bar, or being comfortable asking raise from your boss. The prescription for CCing you seem to be making is: Practice, and with time you'll get comfortable with the idea of carrying a round in the chamber. The important issue here (which nobody has addressed so far) is the adrenaline dump effects: blood pressure shoots up, hands shaking uncontrollably, heart rate shoots up, breathing rate increases, fine motor reflexes are gone - all of which increases the chances of handling your weapon in less than ideal fashion - no matter how much you train. There is no disputing the fact that the more you train, the less likelihood of negligently discharging the weapon. But, there is also no disputing the fact that adrenaline dump makes you less proficient in handling your weapon safely (in which case adding a 2nd hole to one's butt or shooting one's hip becomes quite possible, if not likely). Just my 0.02.
First, I never made the type of "comfortable" comparisons that you did, and I would fully agree that being comfortable hitting on a woman is not like being comfortable carrying a weapon properly and safely. If you want to make "comfort" scenarios, it would be other dangerous endeavors where the only near 100% guarantee of safety is proficiency.

So, some realistic "comfortable" comparisons might be flying a plane, where a person that is proficient in all areas, including emergency landings with no power or short IFR stint if caught above a cloud layer, would be the difference between being "comfortable" flying a single engine plane vs. being nervous, or only wanting to go up with an instructor or another more experience pilot.

Maybe jumping out of an airplane, where the proficiency in packing your shoot, making sure all of your equipment is both in working order and properly setup, and the proficiency in using the equipment.

Maybe climbing the sheer face of a rock wall hundreds or thousands of feet above a canyon floor, where the difference between being proficient and not could be the difference between life and death.

We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory.

Again, IF a person is improperly trained (both in terms of formal training and practice) and is used to drawing his firearm, and putting his finger on the trigger (or in the trigger guard area) as soon as it clears leather, then, yes, your adrenaline dump scenario would be accurate.

However, if a person has practiced thousands of times "properly" drawing/presenting his weapon, then that won't be an issue, because he won't be requiring fine motor skills to keep his finger hovering over, but not pulling, the trigger.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:25   #91
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Maybe the one that is making ridiculous and brainless statements is you. When I said “carrying an unchambered gun is like carrying a hammer” I was using a simile which is a figure of speech that directly compares two different things. Of course a hammer is a hammer and a Glock is a Glock. You need to think more before writing comments on others thoughts. Be respectful and you will be respected.
Poor simile and I disagree with the point you made with it.

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Old 01-25-2013, 11:30   #92
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Actually, I don't see how your martial arts example applies. I guess your confusion was that you focused on the Tueller drill, which I don't believe I even referenced by name, rather than the results of the experiment, as well as many followup tests.

For instance, for a while, during his courses, Mas Ayoob would have class members run 7 yards and time it. He found that even elderly and somewhat mobility challenged students would cover the distance in about 2 seconds. The young, fit students might be more like 1.5 seconds.

That knowledge has nothing to do with fake martial art encounters, it has to do with having the information you need to properly train and more important, understand the importance of situational awareness and actively avoid putting yourself in positions where you can be attacked from close distance (I realize this last part is challenging to say the least).

As to your last statement about the Tueller drill doing nothing more than showing how quickly someone covers 21 feet? Um, yea, I think that was the whole and only point of my post.

Feeling a little touchy today?

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Old 01-25-2013, 12:00   #93
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I'm so serious about self defense, I carry two in the chamber.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:01   #94
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Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

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The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:07   #95
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First, I never made the type of "comfortable" comparisons that you did, and I would fully agree that being comfortable hitting on a woman is not like being comfortable carrying a weapon properly and safely. If you want to make "comfort" scenarios, it would be other dangerous endeavors where the only near 100% guarantee of safety is proficiency.

So, some realistic "comfortable" comparisons might be flying a plane, where a person that is proficient in all areas, including emergency landings with no power or short IFR stint if caught above a cloud layer, would be the difference between being "comfortable" flying a single engine plane vs. being nervous, or only wanting to go up with an instructor or another more experience pilot.

Maybe jumping out of an airplane, where the proficiency in packing your shoot, making sure all of your equipment is both in working order and properly setup, and the proficiency in using the equipment.

Maybe climbing the sheer face of a rock wall hundreds or thousands of feet above a canyon floor, where the difference between being proficient and not could be the difference between life and death.

We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory.

Again, IF a person is improperly trained (both in terms of formal training and practice) and is used to drawing his firearm, and putting his finger on the trigger (or in the trigger guard area) as soon as it clears leather, then, yes, your adrenaline dump scenario would be accurate.

However, if a person has practiced thousands of times "properly" drawing/presenting his weapon, then that won't be an issue, because he won't be requiring fine motor skills to keep his finger hovering over, but not pulling, the trigger.
I see your point. But, I guess what I was trying to say is that even extensive and "perfect" practice should not give one full "comfort" when it comes to flight/fight situation. This comfort is a dangerous illusion, is what I'm trying to say. If you REGULARLY practice holstering/unholstering, drawing, aiming, shooting while injected with adrenaline, AND when your hands are shaking vigorously, AND when you heart rate and breathing rate are jacked up, AND when a genuine fear for your life is somehow induced - then I concede and you win this argument. But, unless you are special forces operator (which I believe 99.99% of folks here aren't), you aren't doing this sort of training regularly.

I don't understand what you mean by "We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory." To clear any misunderstanding, I'm not saying you are 100% sure to shoot yourself in the butt or sever your leg artery. What I'm saying, and what is EXTENSIVELY documented, is that adrenaline dump creates many very specific and very powerful physiological and psychological changes in one's body and mind, which reduce your ability to safely handle your weapon.

I think I will stop here, as we appear to start going in circles. I'll keep an eye on this thread for good arguments on this issue, though. In all honesty, I'm only about 90% committed to my position on this issue (because the issue is complex), and I appreciate your guys well thought-out arguments. I think we all benefit greatly from rationally and thoughtfully debating on this important topic. Cheers!
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Old 01-25-2013, 13:46   #96
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
If you have practiced PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target, it isn't a "fine motor skill" issue.

If you ever have to draw your weapon in self defense, the odds of you severing your femoral artery vs. the odds that you will need to use your off hand to fend off an attack are not even in the same realm of possibility. One, the latter, is a routine factor when drawing a weapon in self defense, and the other is a contrived rationale for not carrying one in the chamber.

Your artery scenario would only be a realistic scenario for someone who is improperly (or not at all) trained (self or instructor or both) and is in the habit of putting his finger inside the trigger guard as the gun clears leather. If a person is doing that, and their training level is that poor, then I agree with you of the dangers. Short of that lack of training, your scenario is simply a far fetched reach/justification and you are probably as likely to have your skull bashed in from blue ice falling off an airplane.

Instead of vandros focusing on "fine motorskill", I would suggest that he practice more so that drawing a handgun in a safe manner, such as you suggested, i.e.; “PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target” becomes a matter of “muscle memory”.

That type of muscle memory is so engrained in me, that I do not even think about it. It seems to me that vandros has been practicing the wrong thing.

I do find it useless to waste the time try to change someone like vandros’ opinion or way of thinking on this matter. It reminds me of a gun-grabber and how intransigent they are about how dangerous they perceive firearms to be.

RJ
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Old 01-25-2013, 16:17   #97
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Oh and OP, GLOCKS have mags not clips. One of my pet peeves (along with a lot of others.
I know the difference and I use the correct terminology most of the time, but what difference does it make, really?

Uncle Sam taught me to use 'clips' when I carried his M-1 years ago. I'm not sure which term he used for the 1911s we trained with.

I just wonder why people get all twisted up when 'clip' slips out instead of 'mag'. Seems like a pretty small mistake to me.
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Old 01-25-2013, 16:23   #98
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RJ- They are dangerous, my friend. If they weren't, we wouldn't bother to carry one.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 01-25-2013 at 16:25..
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Old 01-25-2013, 16:28   #99
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I know the difference and I use the correct terminology most of the time, but what difference does it make, really?

Uncle Sam taught me to use 'clips' when I carried his M-1 years ago. I'm not sure which term he used for the 1911s we trained with.

I just wonder why people get all twisted up when 'clip' slips out instead of 'mag'. Seems like a pretty small mistake to me.
It's a little crazy sometimes. While I say magazine 95% of the time, I sometimes say clip. I have no idea, probably from decades of TV and movies using the term.

I don't know if this is 100% accurate, but the way I differentiate is that a magazine holds the rounds on the inside (basically all of your AR, pistol, etc. type feeding devices are magazines, including the 1911).

Clips would be something that holds the rounds at the base. So, the M1 Garand has a clip, holding the rounds at their base. You can get 5.56 rounds on stripper 'clips' which hold ten rounds with a clip around their bases, allowing you to quickly reload a magazine.

So, in my simplified way of thinking, rounds being internal and it's a magazine, rounds being exposed and held together by a device at the base of the cartridge = a clip.

As to the over-reaction to people about the wrong use of the term, I think it's just a reaction to so many in the media and anti-gun crowd that spout anti-gun rhetoric, but have no clue about guns -- such as Feinstein outlawing semi-automatic rifles with rocket launchers attached to them.
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Old 01-25-2013, 16:35   #100
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Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

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Indy - This thread will rack up hundreds, maybe a thousand posts because the topic is important and people learn more and have more fun participating in a live thread. If it isn't costing you anything, why don't you just pretend it doesn't exist?

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