Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-25-2013, 10:44   #81
AR15 guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: WV
Posts: 343
Send a message via AIM to AR15 guy
I wouldn't bother carrying a gun if your scared to carry one in the chamber.

If attacked you'll be lucky to have time to unholster a weapon, let alone charge it at well.

Last edited by AR15 guy; 01-25-2013 at 10:47..
AR15 guy is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:46   #82
D4RWlN
Senior Member
 
D4RWlN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Southeastern, AL
Posts: 766
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArlenGunClub View Post
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
I recommend keeping one the chamber and the rest in your magazine or at the very least all in the magazine. It you keep them all on a clip, you have to remove the rounds from the clip, load them in your mag, insert the mag in a firearm, and then rack to slide to be ready. When seconds count, you are only a minute from getting your pistol operational by keeping your rounds on a clip
__________________
-Darwin
Semper Fi
D4RWlN is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:48   #83
zbomb
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 43
Snap Cap in the chamber....
zbomb is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:52   #84
onearmsteve
Member
 
onearmsteve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: south carolina
Posts: 66
locked and loaded
onearmsteve is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 10:59   #85
tnedator
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I'm just trying to articulate my position clearly and forcefully, and push back a little against conventional wisdom on this forum. Don't mean to be offensive/disrespectful to anybody's preferred method of CCing. And, I'm ready to be persuaded by well reasoned arguments (not the ones like: "Having pistol without a round in the chamber is the same as carrying a hammer").
As far as well reasoned, reasons, I think it boils down to this (to summarize some of my long winded posts.

1. Time can be a factor, and even the fraction of a second (under ideal conditions) it can take to chamber a round, might be the difference between successfully defending yourself and those under your care and being killed or grievously wounded.

2. Racking the slide is something that can go wrong (as someone pointed out this morning in this thread). While any gun could have a failure to pickup the round and go into battery when trying to speed-rack the slide, certain guns like Kahr's have a great likelihood of failing in this regard (where a Glock is typically pretty forgiving).

3. The number one flaw in the logic that "it only takes me .2 seconds to rack my slide while bringing the gun on to target" is that it assumes you will have both hands available to perform said function. In training or in front of the mirror, of course you will have both hands. In real world self defense situations, you are VERY likely to be using your off hand (left hand if you are right handed) to hold off an attacker/maintain separation, while you draw and point fire from the hip/side of stomach/chest location.

This is the reason that it is common, if not almost always done, in self defense training courses to practice drawing and firing at close range, with your off hand held out, palm forward simulating what you will be doing when a guy 3' feet from you about to pass you, pulls a knife or in some other way launches an attack.

This last point, point three, is where all of the "it only takes a fraction of a second to rack my slide" logic completely falls apart. The ONLY way this logic holds up is to assume that the odds are you will never have to pull a gun in self defense, and therefore, having the gun useless in x (40, 50, 70) percent of the situations where I would need to use a gun in self defense is ok, because the odds are I will never have to use my gun to defend myself.

As has been discussed in this thread, and as I have said, everyone has their comfort level, and that is a VERY important consideration. If a person feels unsafe with a chamber in the round, they shouldn't carry one, because that nervousness will likely make them more likely to have an accident. That said, nobody that carries with the chamber empty should be under the incorrect belief that it doesn't greatly impact their ability to defend themselves or those under their care, because the simple, and indisputable fact is that it does greatly reduce your ability to defend yourself. Not an opinion, that's a fact.
__________________
NRA Benefactor - Life Member
tnedator is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:05   #86
tnedator
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I hear you, bro. And, I've taken the training you refer to (my instructor, btw, was in agreement with you). But, here's my scenario for you: You are startled by an attack, you rush to pull out your pistol with round in the chamber, because your fine motor reflexes are shot to hell, as you are pulling out your gun from the holster you accidentally shoot a hot bonded JHP into your thigh severing your femoral artery. As you are recovering from the shock of having just shot yourself, you realize that you will bleed to death in the matter of minutes. As you ponder your ill fate, the BG, shoots your wife, shoots you, takes your gun, takes your wallets and gets away. Is this scenario unlikely? I don't think so, based on how many negligent discharges occur to police officers who are hostering/unhostering their handguns under stress.
If you have practiced PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target, it isn't a "fine motor skill" issue.

If you ever have to draw your weapon in self defense, the odds of you severing your femoral artery vs. the odds that you will need to use your off hand to fend off an attack are not even in the same realm of possibility. One, the latter, is a routine factor when drawing a weapon in self defense, and the other is a contrived rationale for not carrying one in the chamber.

Your artery scenario would only be a realistic scenario for someone who is improperly (or not at all) trained (self or instructor or both) and is in the habit of putting his finger inside the trigger guard as the gun clears leather. If a person is doing that, and their training level is that poor, then I agree with you of the dangers. Short of that lack of training, your scenario is simply a far fetched reach/justification and you are probably as likely to have your skull bashed in from blue ice falling off an airplane.
__________________
NRA Benefactor - Life Member

Last edited by tnedator; 01-25-2013 at 11:07..
tnedator is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:14   #87
D4RWlN
Senior Member
 
D4RWlN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Southeastern, AL
Posts: 766
On a more serious note, if you are not yet comfortable carrying a round in the chamber, it's okay. This usually means you are not yet confident in either the pistol not firing by itself or in your own firearm handling. This is what I tell people to do to overcome this. It's always worked. Get a quality holster that protects the trigger and completely covers the trigger guard. I can not express enough how important a quality holster is to carrying chambered with guns without manual safeties. With your pistol unloaded, cocked the gun, and then insert your mag. Carry like this, unchambered, for a month or two(or ever long it takes to get comfortable.) Every day at the end of the day inspect you pistol to make sure the trigger isn't depressed. It won't be. Glocks don't go off by themselves if you don't monkey with the internals too much. If it ever is. You did something wrong and need to re-evaluate your firearm handling skills as you are not ready to carry a firearm. The idea is, day after day, month after month if need be, you will notice the trigger doesn't and won't just depress by itself. Once you see this and are comfortable, start carrying one in the pipe. I actually did this to myself when I first started carrying a Glock. I grew up and was trained on firearms with manual safeties and uber safe gun handling and rules. I wasn't sure of a platform without manual safeties. This is how I initially over came that. Now I prefer no manual safeties.I think a lot of people use them almost as a crutch for poor firearms handling and using piss poor holsters. Eventually you need to carry chambered or you are crippling yourself. I hope this helps you out.
__________________
-Darwin
Semper Fi

Last edited by D4RWlN; 01-25-2013 at 11:18..
D4RWlN is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:25   #88
vandros
10mm fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: southwest
Posts: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
As far as well reasoned, reasons, I think it boils down to this (to summarize some of my long winded posts.

1. Time can be a factor, and even the fraction of a second (under ideal conditions) it can take to chamber a round, might be the difference between successfully defending yourself and those under your care and being killed or grievously wounded.

2. Racking the slide is something that can go wrong (as someone pointed out this morning in this thread). While any gun could have a failure to pickup the round and go into battery when trying to speed-rack the slide, certain guns like Kahr's have a great likelihood of failing in this regard (where a Glock is typically pretty forgiving).

3. The number one flaw in the logic that "it only takes me .2 seconds to rack my slide while bringing the gun on to target" is that it assumes you will have both hands available to perform said function. In training or in front of the mirror, of course you will have both hands. In real world self defense situations, you are VERY likely to be using your off hand (left hand if you are right handed) to hold off an attacker/maintain separation, while you draw and point fire from the hip/side of stomach/chest location.

This is the reason that it is common, if not almost always done, in self defense training courses to practice drawing and firing at close range, with your off hand held out, palm forward simulating what you will be doing when a guy 3' feet from you about to pass you, pulls a knife or in some other way launches an attack.

This last point, point three, is where all of the "it only takes a fraction of a second to rack my slide" logic completely falls apart. The ONLY way this logic holds up is to assume that the odds are you will never have to pull a gun in self defense, and therefore, having the gun useless in x (40, 50, 70) percent of the situations where I would need to use a gun in self defense is ok, because the odds are I will never have to use my gun to defend myself.

As has been discussed in this thread, and as I have said, everyone has their comfort level, and that is a VERY important consideration. If a person feels unsafe with a chamber in the round, they shouldn't carry one, because that nervousness will likely make them more likely to have an accident. That said, nobody that carries with the chamber empty should be under the incorrect belief that it doesn't greatly impact their ability to defend themselves or those under their care, because the simple, and indisputable fact is that it does greatly reduce your ability to defend yourself. Not an opinion, that's a fact.
I agree with your point that one-handed shooting is a very likely scenario. It is a VERY good point, based on substantial amount of statistical data.

I disagree with you, and others, on one issue though: You talk about being "comfortable" vs. "uncomfortable" having a round in the chamber. And some talk about learning to be comfortable by carrying weapon with a round in the chamber when they are in their home. I agree with you that you want to reduce your nervousness when it comes to handling your weapon. What I disagree with is the sentiment that your being "comfortable" carrying a chambered round is something like being comfortable hitting on women in a bar, or being comfortable asking raise from your boss. The prescription for CCing you seem to be making is: Practice, and with time you'll get comfortable with the idea of carrying a round in the chamber. The important issue here (which nobody has addressed so far) is the adrenaline dump effects: blood pressure shoots up, hands shaking uncontrollably, heart rate shoots up, breathing rate increases, fine motor reflexes are gone - all of which increases the chances of handling your weapon in less than ideal fashion - no matter how much you train. There is no disputing the fact that the more you train, the less likelihood of negligently discharging the weapon. But, there is also no disputing the fact that adrenaline dump makes you less proficient in handling your weapon safely (in which case adding a 2nd hole to one's butt or shooting one's hip becomes quite possible, if not likely). Just my 0.02.
__________________
glock 4 gun; strider 4 knife

Last edited by vandros; 01-25-2013 at 11:30..
vandros is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:30   #89
SGT278ACR
Retired Veteran
 
SGT278ACR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: 16S DE 680 928
Posts: 1,475
This was discussed several years ago when I went through the police academy. It really makes no sense to not have one chambered when you're carrying for personal protection. As quick as a dangerous threat can come at you... a lot can happen in the time it takes to draw... charge the weapon... then get a shot off. But, to each his own... it's your gun & your choice to carry however you want to. For those of you who do not carry chambered... good luck with that if you are ever instantly and unexpectedly assaulted.
__________________
G22 (2nd Gen)
G26 (3rd Gen)
G42
SGT278ACR is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 11:49   #90
tnedator
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I agree with your point that one-handed shooting is a very likely scenario. It is a VERY good point, based on substantial amount of statistical data.

I disagree with you, and others, on one issue though: You talk about being "comfortable" vs. "uncomfortable" having a round in the chamber. And some talk about learning to be comfortable by carrying weapon with a round in the chamber when they are in their home. I agree with you that you want to reduce your nervousness when it comes to handling your weapon. What I disagree with is the sentiment that your being "comfortable" carrying a chambered round is something like being comfortable hitting on women in a bar, or being comfortable asking raise from your boss. The prescription for CCing you seem to be making is: Practice, and with time you'll get comfortable with the idea of carrying a round in the chamber. The important issue here (which nobody has addressed so far) is the adrenaline dump effects: blood pressure shoots up, hands shaking uncontrollably, heart rate shoots up, breathing rate increases, fine motor reflexes are gone - all of which increases the chances of handling your weapon in less than ideal fashion - no matter how much you train. There is no disputing the fact that the more you train, the less likelihood of negligently discharging the weapon. But, there is also no disputing the fact that adrenaline dump makes you less proficient in handling your weapon safely (in which case adding a 2nd hole to one's butt or shooting one's hip becomes quite possible, if not likely). Just my 0.02.
First, I never made the type of "comfortable" comparisons that you did, and I would fully agree that being comfortable hitting on a woman is not like being comfortable carrying a weapon properly and safely. If you want to make "comfort" scenarios, it would be other dangerous endeavors where the only near 100% guarantee of safety is proficiency.

So, some realistic "comfortable" comparisons might be flying a plane, where a person that is proficient in all areas, including emergency landings with no power or short IFR stint if caught above a cloud layer, would be the difference between being "comfortable" flying a single engine plane vs. being nervous, or only wanting to go up with an instructor or another more experience pilot.

Maybe jumping out of an airplane, where the proficiency in packing your shoot, making sure all of your equipment is both in working order and properly setup, and the proficiency in using the equipment.

Maybe climbing the sheer face of a rock wall hundreds or thousands of feet above a canyon floor, where the difference between being proficient and not could be the difference between life and death.

We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory.

Again, IF a person is improperly trained (both in terms of formal training and practice) and is used to drawing his firearm, and putting his finger on the trigger (or in the trigger guard area) as soon as it clears leather, then, yes, your adrenaline dump scenario would be accurate.

However, if a person has practiced thousands of times "properly" drawing/presenting his weapon, then that won't be an issue, because he won't be requiring fine motor skills to keep his finger hovering over, but not pulling, the trigger.
__________________
NRA Benefactor - Life Member
tnedator is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 12:25   #91
happyguy
Man, I'm Pretty
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: You can't get here from there!
Posts: 15,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by danysw View Post
Maybe the one that is making ridiculous and brainless statements is you. When I said “carrying an unchambered gun is like carrying a hammer” I was using a simile which is a figure of speech that directly compares two different things. Of course a hammer is a hammer and a Glock is a Glock. You need to think more before writing comments on others thoughts. Be respectful and you will be respected.
Poor simile and I disagree with the point you made with it.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
__________________
Proverbs 21:31 The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but victory is of the LORD.

"I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive at death safely."

Last edited by happyguy; 01-25-2013 at 12:39..
happyguy is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 12:30   #92
happyguy
Man, I'm Pretty
 
happyguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: You can't get here from there!
Posts: 15,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Actually, I don't see how your martial arts example applies. I guess your confusion was that you focused on the Tueller drill, which I don't believe I even referenced by name, rather than the results of the experiment, as well as many followup tests.

For instance, for a while, during his courses, Mas Ayoob would have class members run 7 yards and time it. He found that even elderly and somewhat mobility challenged students would cover the distance in about 2 seconds. The young, fit students might be more like 1.5 seconds.

That knowledge has nothing to do with fake martial art encounters, it has to do with having the information you need to properly train and more important, understand the importance of situational awareness and actively avoid putting yourself in positions where you can be attacked from close distance (I realize this last part is challenging to say the least).

As to your last statement about the Tueller drill doing nothing more than showing how quickly someone covers 21 feet? Um, yea, I think that was the whole and only point of my post.

Feeling a little touchy today?

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
__________________
Proverbs 21:31 The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but victory is of the LORD.

"I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive at death safely."

Last edited by happyguy; 01-25-2013 at 12:31..
happyguy is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 13:00   #93
Drain You
NRA member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,832
I'm so serious about self defense, I carry two in the chamber.
Drain You is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 13:01   #94
IndyGunFreak
KO Windows
 
IndyGunFreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 30,507
Send a message via ICQ to IndyGunFreak Send a message via AIM to IndyGunFreak Send a message via MSN to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Yahoo to IndyGunFreak Send a message via Skype™ to IndyGunFreak


Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

IGF
__________________
Quote:
Ronald Reagan
"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
"Man is not free unless Government is limited"
IndyGunFreak is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 13:07   #95
vandros
10mm fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: southwest
Posts: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
First, I never made the type of "comfortable" comparisons that you did, and I would fully agree that being comfortable hitting on a woman is not like being comfortable carrying a weapon properly and safely. If you want to make "comfort" scenarios, it would be other dangerous endeavors where the only near 100% guarantee of safety is proficiency.

So, some realistic "comfortable" comparisons might be flying a plane, where a person that is proficient in all areas, including emergency landings with no power or short IFR stint if caught above a cloud layer, would be the difference between being "comfortable" flying a single engine plane vs. being nervous, or only wanting to go up with an instructor or another more experience pilot.

Maybe jumping out of an airplane, where the proficiency in packing your shoot, making sure all of your equipment is both in working order and properly setup, and the proficiency in using the equipment.

Maybe climbing the sheer face of a rock wall hundreds or thousands of feet above a canyon floor, where the difference between being proficient and not could be the difference between life and death.

We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory.

Again, IF a person is improperly trained (both in terms of formal training and practice) and is used to drawing his firearm, and putting his finger on the trigger (or in the trigger guard area) as soon as it clears leather, then, yes, your adrenaline dump scenario would be accurate.

However, if a person has practiced thousands of times "properly" drawing/presenting his weapon, then that won't be an issue, because he won't be requiring fine motor skills to keep his finger hovering over, but not pulling, the trigger.
I see your point. But, I guess what I was trying to say is that even extensive and "perfect" practice should not give one full "comfort" when it comes to flight/fight situation. This comfort is a dangerous illusion, is what I'm trying to say. If you REGULARLY practice holstering/unholstering, drawing, aiming, shooting while injected with adrenaline, AND when your hands are shaking vigorously, AND when you heart rate and breathing rate are jacked up, AND when a genuine fear for your life is somehow induced - then I concede and you win this argument. But, unless you are special forces operator (which I believe 99.99% of folks here aren't), you aren't doing this sort of training regularly.

I don't understand what you mean by "We don't have a lot of data on defensive gun uses, but what data and reporting we do have, simply don't support your adrenaline dump induced femoral artery severing/hole in butt theory." To clear any misunderstanding, I'm not saying you are 100% sure to shoot yourself in the butt or sever your leg artery. What I'm saying, and what is EXTENSIVELY documented, is that adrenaline dump creates many very specific and very powerful physiological and psychological changes in one's body and mind, which reduce your ability to safely handle your weapon.

I think I will stop here, as we appear to start going in circles. I'll keep an eye on this thread for good arguments on this issue, though. In all honesty, I'm only about 90% committed to my position on this issue (because the issue is complex), and I appreciate your guys well thought-out arguments. I think we all benefit greatly from rationally and thoughtfully debating on this important topic. Cheers!
__________________
glock 4 gun; strider 4 knife

Last edited by vandros; 01-25-2013 at 13:20..
vandros is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 14:46   #96
RJ's Guns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 791
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
If you have practiced PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target, it isn't a "fine motor skill" issue.

If you ever have to draw your weapon in self defense, the odds of you severing your femoral artery vs. the odds that you will need to use your off hand to fend off an attack are not even in the same realm of possibility. One, the latter, is a routine factor when drawing a weapon in self defense, and the other is a contrived rationale for not carrying one in the chamber.

Your artery scenario would only be a realistic scenario for someone who is improperly (or not at all) trained (self or instructor or both) and is in the habit of putting his finger inside the trigger guard as the gun clears leather. If a person is doing that, and their training level is that poor, then I agree with you of the dangers. Short of that lack of training, your scenario is simply a far fetched reach/justification and you are probably as likely to have your skull bashed in from blue ice falling off an airplane.

Instead of vandros focusing on "fine motorskill", I would suggest that he practice more so that drawing a handgun in a safe manner, such as you suggested, i.e.; “PROPERLY drawing your weapon, with your trigger finger in the proper place until the gun is coming on target and ONLY then putting your finger inside the trigger guard/reaching for the trigger, and then going back to the proper place when the gun is leaving the target” becomes a matter of “muscle memory”.

That type of muscle memory is so engrained in me, that I do not even think about it. It seems to me that vandros has been practicing the wrong thing.

I do find it useless to waste the time try to change someone like vandros’ opinion or way of thinking on this matter. It reminds me of a gun-grabber and how intransigent they are about how dangerous they perceive firearms to be.

RJ
RJ's Guns is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 17:17   #97
PhotoFeller
Senior Member
 
PhotoFeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Midwest and SW Florida
Posts: 2,942
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCHeel View Post
Oh and OP, GLOCKS have mags not clips. One of my pet peeves (along with a lot of others.
I know the difference and I use the correct terminology most of the time, but what difference does it make, really?

Uncle Sam taught me to use 'clips' when I carried his M-1 years ago. I'm not sure which term he used for the 1911s we trained with.

I just wonder why people get all twisted up when 'clip' slips out instead of 'mag'. Seems like a pretty small mistake to me.
PhotoFeller is online now  
Old 01-25-2013, 17:23   #98
PhotoFeller
Senior Member
 
PhotoFeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Midwest and SW Florida
Posts: 2,942
Blog Entries: 2
RJ- They are dangerous, my friend. If they weren't, we wouldn't bother to carry one.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 01-25-2013 at 17:25..
PhotoFeller is online now  
Old 01-25-2013, 17:28   #99
tnedator
Lifetime Membership
Senior Member
 
tnedator's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I know the difference and I use the correct terminology most of the time, but what difference does it make, really?

Uncle Sam taught me to use 'clips' when I carried his M-1 years ago. I'm not sure which term he used for the 1911s we trained with.

I just wonder why people get all twisted up when 'clip' slips out instead of 'mag'. Seems like a pretty small mistake to me.
It's a little crazy sometimes. While I say magazine 95% of the time, I sometimes say clip. I have no idea, probably from decades of TV and movies using the term.

I don't know if this is 100% accurate, but the way I differentiate is that a magazine holds the rounds on the inside (basically all of your AR, pistol, etc. type feeding devices are magazines, including the 1911).

Clips would be something that holds the rounds at the base. So, the M1 Garand has a clip, holding the rounds at their base. You can get 5.56 rounds on stripper 'clips' which hold ten rounds with a clip around their bases, allowing you to quickly reload a magazine.

So, in my simplified way of thinking, rounds being internal and it's a magazine, rounds being exposed and held together by a device at the base of the cartridge = a clip.

As to the over-reaction to people about the wrong use of the term, I think it's just a reaction to so many in the media and anti-gun crowd that spout anti-gun rhetoric, but have no clue about guns -- such as Feinstein outlawing semi-automatic rifles with rocket launchers attached to them.
__________________
NRA Benefactor - Life Member
tnedator is offline  
Old 01-25-2013, 17:35   #100
PhotoFeller
Senior Member
 
PhotoFeller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Midwest and SW Florida
Posts: 2,942
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

IGF
Indy - This thread will rack up hundreds, maybe a thousand posts because the topic is important and people learn more and have more fun participating in a live thread. If it isn't costing you anything, why don't you just pretend it doesn't exist?

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 01-25-2013 at 17:36..
PhotoFeller is online now  

 
  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:19.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 903
241 Members
662 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31