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Old 01-25-2013, 05:49   #51
kaech
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Originally Posted by GlockFanWA View Post
The instructor needs some instructing IMO.
Yep the instructor is a glock hater
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:04   #52
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Originally Posted by Made in Austria View Post
I did carry mine with one in the chamber, till my little daughter got bigger and bigger and started huging my leg everytime I came home. I don't know, it just didn't feel right knowing that the barrel with a round in it ready to go was pointing at her head, eventough I knew that it won't go off without pulling the trigger. I just couldn't carry it anymore with one in the chamber.
I have three kids two of which are old enough to do this. I have successfully trained my oldest to stay away from my right side. With the younger of the two i have to always exercise exceptional situational awareness until she learns.

My kids are one of the biggest reasons i keep one in the chamber. I always have one hand tied up carrying one of them or at least holding their hand. I wouldn't ever have enough time to even get a proper two handed grip on my gun much less load the thing. Come to think of it i need to practice one handed shooting alot more when go out next time.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:08   #53
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
This is one of those utterly ridiculous statements that gets repeated over and over by people who aren't thinking about what they are actually saying.

You can't rack the slide on a hammer and then shoot fifteen rounds at various targets. A gun without a round in the chamber is still a gun and a hammer is, well...just a hammer.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

Maybe the one that is making ridiculous and brainless statements is you. When I said “carrying an unchambered gun is like carrying a hammer” I was using a simile which is a figure of speech that directly compares two different things. Of course a hammer is a hammer and a Glock is a Glock. You need to think more before writing comments on others thoughts. Be respectful and you will be respected.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:10   #54
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Would you carry a revolver unloaded? Same thing really.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:15   #55
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Would you carry a revolver unloaded? Same thing really.
Some people do! Its just as stupid but they carry with the empty hole at the top so the hammer doesn't get "bumped" and go off.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:20   #56
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Loaded. Always!
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:24   #57
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Depending on the threat level carrying with no rounds chambered is OK by me. If I don't have time to rack the slide after displaying my weapon I was probably not meant to win that day.

Where are you carrying?

I don't believe that hollywood style quick draw shootouts among sober civilians are real.

Probably should be using feet while finding weapon. Paralysis of feet while focusing on holstered gun makes one a stationary target.

Of course each of us must make up their own mind and readjust actions as the situation changes.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:27   #58
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Wow, such a heated discussion. For me, always one in the chamber and a carry gun WITHOUT an external safety. I've been trained by some of the best and I am a trainer myself and I personally don't think I would have the wherewithal to reliably disengage a safety in a close encounter (read phonebooth distance) much less have to chamber a round. But that's ME, it's not the same for everyone. Some folks practice religiously with their manual safety and believe they will be able to find it and disengage it when the poop hits the fan. I'm a simple guy and like to keep things simple, that's why when I am off duty I carry a glock, I have tried all the rest over the years and the Glock keeps it simple, no manual safety, no decocker to get in the way of my thumbs forward grip (darn duty weapon). That said, I have taken a liking to my wifes Beretta Nano. That thing doesn't have a slide release, a great pocket gun!

For example, my wife likes her Beretta's in the "FS" configuration with a decocker/safety. I like mine to be in the "G" congfiguration with only a decocker. To each their one.

If the OP feels he can chamber a round, then that's his comfort zone. As an Air Force guy, the other services are surprised that our regulations direct us to have our M9s with a round in the chamber and the weapon on fire when carried (I carry an M11, but the same applies, round in the chamber - no manual safety).
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:54   #59
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Tueller drill is not stupid, but it is also not reality. And FWIW, the guys that are getting sliced and diced performing this drill are carrying chambered.

It's just like those martial arts demo's where one guy throws a single punch and freezes while the defender works his way around him throwing kicks and punches until he administers the coup de grace.

It's just a chance to demonstrate some techniques with a live target that people can see. It has nothing to do with actual self-defense.

Tueller drill is the same. It demonstrates how fast someone can cover 21 feet. That is all.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing with your post. It just stimulated my brain cell.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Actually, I don't see how your martial arts example applies. I guess your confusion was that you focused on the Tueller drill, which I don't believe I even referenced by name, rather than the results of the experiment, as well as many followup tests.

For instance, for a while, during his courses, Mas Ayoob would have class members run 7 yards and time it. He found that even elderly and somewhat mobility challenged students would cover the distance in about 2 seconds. The young, fit students might be more like 1.5 seconds.

That knowledge has nothing to do with fake martial art encounters, it has to do with having the information you need to properly train and more important, understand the importance of situational awareness and actively avoid putting yourself in positions where you can be attacked from close distance (I realize this last part is challenging to say the least).

As to your last statement about the Tueller drill doing nothing more than showing how quickly someone covers 21 feet? Um, yea, I think that was the whole and only point of my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.S.Brown View Post

The ONLY "accidental discharge" is perhaps when you get klutzy and accidentally fumble a gun in your hands, drop it and it discharges upon impact with the floor/ground. Most high quality guns made in the last thirty years have at least one, but more likely two internal passive safeties to mitigate against this. I might even allow for it happening during a reholstering in a holster that has some design flaw. This is VERY RARE. Likewise if in reholstering your finger is resting on the trigger and the gun discharges, you have committed a CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. Anytime a finger is remotely on a trigger takes away from the possibility of an "accidental discharge."
Well, the other "accidental discharge" that we hear of from time to time, which is not related to using the trigger as a finger rest, is getting something stuck in the trigger. Granted, this is a form of negligence, but much different than accidentally pulling the trigger.

It's having a pull cord from a jacket, thumb break or other piece of equipment/clothing get between the gun and holster, and hooking the trigger, during reholstering.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:07   #60
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Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
Up to a few years ago, I didn't carry one in the chamber myself. I practiced ALOT (with an empty gun of course) drawing and racking and had it down to a very fluid motion kind of like quick drawing with a single action revolver and felt good about carrying that way. Until I really started thinking of many different situations that I could be in, where this technique would be virtually useless and put my life or the life of my loved ones on the line. I always carried with the chamber empty, but the hammer was cocked. I did this just to see if I ever could accidentally make the trigger go off, without a round being chambered. I won't say that is impossible to make this happen, but it is very highly unlikely that it would. Carry with the hammer cocked around the house, with and empty chamber and see for your self how you feel about it. If you choose to practice, and I mean put some serious time into becoming fluid with a draw and rack motion, then that's ok. But the best way IMO, is for you to keep it chambered. You will feel better about it the longer you do it and you will feel better about knowing there's one in there for when/if the SH'sTF someday and you don't have time or the ability to draw and rack. And welcome to GT.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:07   #61
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I have one Glock I keep without a round in the chamber. It's the 17 in the bedroom with a light attached. If I hear something go bump in the night downstairs, I have plenty of time to rack the slide before checking it out. I keep it with the trigger pulled, so I know it's empty.

I also keep a revolver closer to hand if I need something quicker.

Last edited by HexHead; 01-25-2013 at 07:11..
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:12   #62
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Only takes a second to rack the slide, better safe than sorry.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:12   #63
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One in the chamber at all times. Do it for a little while then you will forget about and stop worrying.

With that being said, I couldn't care less what you did. I don't feel safe unless I have one hot and ready to go. If you can (or if you can't) get one chambered in time is really no consequence to me...it's ultimately your life (and maybe your family's) you are protecting.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:32   #64
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However you do it, you have to get your comfort level up on carrying chambered. A number of folks mention the time required to chamber as a negative and I agree with that. However, there are two other reasons not to carry empty chamber:

1) Close quarters struggle with one hand occupied fending off attacker.

2) Short stroking or riding the slide trying to get a live round into the chamber. It can fail to pick up the cartridge from the mag or it can cause a partial failure to feed.

I don't personally care how somebody else carries, but they should be aware of the downsides. IMO. either one of the above happening is more likely than the gun going off by itself. Not trying to diss anybody elses choices.

Finally, if anybody says that they practice this on the range and it doesn't happen, fine (for them). If they can guarantee me that it will never happen on the street, I'll let them buy me a lottery ticket, pick a winning stock or tell me the magic number on the roulette wheel. Things get a little different when the SHTF and you can smell the perps bad breath. Which is kinda why you carry in the first place - right?
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:33   #65
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AGC,

Congrats on the new plastic? Did you do your Wal Mart walk already? Haha...one of the rights of passage.

1. Trigger Safety
2. Firing Pin Safety
3. Drop Safety

The Glocks are just fine, and won't fire unless that trigger is pulled back.

I recommend checking out the holsters from our fellow Texans at Comp-Tac. My favorite is their MTAC holster for IWB, followed by their paddle holster for OWB. Both cover the trigger so that the trigger doesn't get pulled accidentally. You still have to do your part to make sure that you're holstering cleanly, with no obstructions, like a string from a jacket, etc.

I carry hot, but not in the +1 configuration. I'll top off the magazines, and strip one off the top, to leave the magazine down by one. I also carry spare magazines.

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Old 01-25-2013, 07:35   #66
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Research the 21 foot rule and get back to us
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:41   #67
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Originally Posted by Beanie-Bean View Post
AGC,

Congrats on the new plastic? Did you do your Wal Mart walk already? Haha...one of the rights of passage.

1. Trigger Safety
2. Firing Pin Safety
3. Drop Safety

The Glocks are just fine, and won't fire unless that trigger is pulled back.

I recommend checking out the holsters from our fellow Texans at Comp-Tac. My favorite is their MTAC holster for IWB, followed by their paddle holster for OWB. Both cover the trigger so that the trigger doesn't get pulled accidentally. You still have to do your part to make sure that you're holstering cleanly, with no obstructions, like a string from a jacket, etc.

I carry hot, but not in the +1 configuration. I'll top off the magazines, and strip one off the top, to leave the magazine down by one. I also carry spare magazines.

Welcome to GT!
Just curious, why not +1? Do you just feel it's an unnecessary risk handling the weapon after you've chambered the round (removing mag, adding round, reseating mag?) or is there another reason?

Obviously, going +1 is not as important in a G17, G19 or XDm or the like, compared to say a PM9 or other single stack, lower capacity gun.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:45   #68
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Originally Posted by ArlenGunClub View Post
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.

Woooo you said a bad word.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:48   #69
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I'm obviously in minority in my position that one should not chamber when carrying, and that's fine. A lot of knowledgeable folks disagree with me. A lot of knowledgeable folks (i.e., Israeli military) agree with me.

It seems folks disagreeing with me assume they will operate their firearm when adrenaline dump begins in exactly the same way that they do during their range training. The maxim I agree with is: You fall back on your training when SHTF and you are attacked. BUT, this does not mean you'll perform EXACTLY like you've trained when flight/fight reflex takes a hold of you. Just ask all those police officers who had NDs when placed under stress.

Racking slide takes me about 0.2 second, and it takes place while the gun is being moved to target. If you so concerned about this 0.2 second, perhaps you should have bullet-proof vest on, have helmet on, have an AK47 with 100-rounds drum with round chambered and have the weapon always in your hands ready to go. And even that will not address all possible scenarios fully.

Again, all your guys' scenarios are valid and definitely worth pondering. And careful analysis should always be part of each of our individual threat assessment. I see how you all want to be prepared for these scenarios, and I appreciate that. But round in the chamber does not address all possible scenarios. If we follow the logic of wanting to address every possible contingency, then having a loaded gun in the hand is even better than simply having a holstered weapon with round chambered. Having an AK in your hands is even better than Glock. Sitting in a tank is even better than having an AK. See where our natural desire to address all possible contingencies can lead us?

Conventional wisdom here seems to be that a round should always be chambered when carrying glocks. It also seems conventional wisdom that NDs are a normal occurrence when under stress - especially when holstering/unhostering. I just can't accept this. After reading numerous volumes on the matter, participating in training, and carefully evaluating my options, I choose not to chamber. I just don't feel like having my hot-loaded 10mm HP travelling down my leg would improve my day - as a result of me underestimating the intensity of physiological and psychological response to deadly threat.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:58   #70
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There are few things in the world less useless than an unloaded weapon.

Except **** on a boar hog perhaps.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:01   #71
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Just curious, why not +1? Do you just feel it's an unnecessary risk handling the weapon after you've chambered the round (removing mag, adding round, reseating mag?) or is there another reason?

Obviously, going +1 is not as important in a G17, G19 or XDm or the like, compared to say a PM9 or other single stack, lower capacity gun.
tnedator,

I rotate through several handguns for my carry rotation, and all different calibers. When my "CCW for the week" goes back into the safe, I eject the round and return it to the magazine I had in the gun. I found that I'd have to have an extra step in swapping firearms, because there would be an extra round. It was just easier for me to run with a dedicated magazine for each pistol and to strip the top round off when going hot. Since I'm not trying to save that carry ammo forever, I'll cycle new rounds in when I've chambered/ejected that top round a few times. Last thing I need to deal with is setback.

I carry a spare magazine, and sometimes multiple if the CCW is a smaller one, like my SIG P238HD. All of my Glocks use the smaller/flush magazines, with a full-size spare.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:01   #72
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I'm obviously in minority in my position that one should not chamber when carrying, and that's fine. A lot of knowledgeable folks disagree with me. A lot of knowledgeable folks (i.e., Israeli military) agree with me.

It seems folks disagreeing with me assume they will operate their firearm when adrenaline dump begins in exactly the same way that they do during their range training. The maxim I agree with is: You fall back on your training when SHTF and you are attacked. BUT, this does not mean you'll perform EXACTLY like you've trained when flight/fight reflex takes a hold of you. Just ask all those police officers who had NDs when placed under stress.

Racking slide takes me about 0.2 seconds, and its takes place while the gun is being moved to target. If you are worried about 0.2 seconds slow down, perhaps you should have bullet-proof vest on, have helmet on, have AK47 with 100-rounds drum with round chambered and have the weapon always in your hands. And even that will not address all possible scenarios fully.

As I said, majority disagrees with me. It appears conventional wisdom is that round should always be chambered when carrying glocks. It also seems conventional wisdom that NDs are a normal occurrance when under stress - especially when holstering/unhostering. After reading numerous volumes on the matter, participating in training, and carefully evaluating my options, I choose not to chamber. I just don't feel like having my hot-loaded 10mm HP travelling down my leg would improve my day. But, that's just me.
You appear to be defensive here. It's important to note that few if any of us recommend someone who isn't comfortable and properly trained should carry a gun properly, which is ready to be used if your life depends on it.

Obviously, you could get better training or switch to a gun with a manual safety (i'm not a big fan of this, since whether you "think" the safety is on or not, you shouldn't be touching the trigger, so the basic rules apply regardless).

However, if your comfort level is to err on the side of extra safety, either because you don't feel comfortable or for philosophical reasons, that's your choice.

We all make decisions on a regular basis that impact how quickly we can deploy a gun in self defense. Where we carry (appendix, 4:00, SOB) or how we carry, OWB, IWB, belly band or smart carry type holster, all impact how quickly the weapon can be drawn when needed.

So, from a purely "time" stand point, if you opt for a minimally covered, fast access holster, with no round chambered, you could get the gun on target as fast or faster than someone that's wearing a gun in an IWB, tucked under a dress shirt, or in a smart carry type holster.

Of course, as discussed, if you need to use your off hand to fend off an attacker as you are drawing, something that is a VERY real likelihood and why most self defense training includes such drills, as most bad guys don't announce their intentions from 10 yards away, then you now have to fumble to rack the slide on your belt or as mentioned, use it as a club, or stop defending/keeping distance with your off hand, as you choose to use it to rack your slide.

It's not just a time factor, it's the knowledge that you have to be in an "ideal" self defense situation to be guaranteed the ability to rack the slide to chamber a round. Lots of self defense situations, possibly most, won't give you the time and two free hands to draw and rack as your plan calls for.

Anyway, I started this post with the intention of saying that everyone draws their line somewhere. You've drawn your line on the side of ultimate safety, and that's your right. You shouldn't feel the need to defend it in such a strained way. If you feel safer that way, that's all that matters.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:07   #73
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tnedator,

I rotate through several handguns for my carry rotation, and all different calibers. When my "CCW for the week" goes back into the safe, I eject the round and return it to the magazine I had in the gun. I found that I'd have to have an extra step in swapping firearms, because there would be an extra round. It was just easier for me to run with a dedicated magazine for each pistol and to strip the top round off when going hot. Since I'm not trying to save that carry ammo forever, I'll cycle new rounds in when I've chambered/ejected that top round a few times. Last thing I need to deal with is setback.

I carry a spare magazine, and sometimes multiple if the CCW is a smaller one, like my SIG P238HD. All of my Glocks use the smaller/flush magazines, with a full-size spare.
Makes sense. If you are carrying multiple guns and unloading regularly, vs. leaving it loaded all the time, I can see the line of logic. On those occaissions I need to unload my carry weapon, such as if I decide to clean/lube it, I always have a spare round hanging around, which I have to keep up with. If cleaning, it's only for a short period of time, but if I'm sending the gun off for repair, putting it up for a while in the safe, or the like, I have this extra round, out of a magazine.

As I said, personally, I would be much more apprehensive to do it with a gun like a PM9 or PM40, just because they are so capacity limited to begin with, and to an extent even a M&P 9c or 40c, compared to a M&P FS, G17, G19, XDm, etc. that are going to have 14-17 rounds or so, even if you don't top off the magazine.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:38   #74
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Originally Posted by arlengunclub View Post
thanks for the quick replies guys. Im confident enough with myself handling and holstering the weapon to not be concerned with an accidental discharge. my chl instructor mentioned the safety issue thing and said "i'd be scared to carry that thing chambered" so i thought it was a big deal with glocks. Guess not. Glad to hear it's not and i'll carry it ready to go.
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the instructor needs some instructing imo.
...x2
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:42   #75
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
You appear to be defensive here. It's important to note that few if any of us recommend someone who isn't comfortable and properly trained should carry a gun properly, which is ready to be used if your life depends on it.

Obviously, you could get better training or switch to a gun with a manual safety (i'm not a big fan of this, since whether you "think" the safety is on or not, you shouldn't be touching the trigger, so the basic rules apply regardless).

However, if your comfort level is to err on the side of extra safety, either because you don't feel comfortable or for philosophical reasons, that's your choice.

We all make decisions on a regular basis that impact how quickly we can deploy a gun in self defense. Where we carry (appendix, 4:00, SOB) or how we carry, OWB, IWB, belly band or smart carry type holster, all impact how quickly the weapon can be drawn when needed.

So, from a purely "time" stand point, if you opt for a minimally covered, fast access holster, with no round chambered, you could get the gun on target as fast or faster than someone that's wearing a gun in an IWB, tucked under a dress shirt, or in a smart carry type holster.

Of course, as discussed, if you need to use your off hand to fend off an attacker as you are drawing, something that is a VERY real likelihood and why most self defense training includes such drills, as most bad guys don't announce their intentions from 10 yards away, then you now have to fumble to rack the slide on your belt or as mentioned, use it as a club, or stop defending/keeping distance with your off hand, as you choose to use it to rack your slide.

It's not just a time factor, it's the knowledge that you have to be in an "ideal" self defense situation to be guaranteed the ability to rack the slide to chamber a round. Lots of self defense situations, possibly most, won't give you the time and two free hands to draw and rack as your plan calls for.

Anyway, I started this post with the intention of saying that everyone draws their line somewhere. You've drawn your line on the side of ultimate safety, and that's your right. You shouldn't feel the need to defend it in such a strained way. If you feel safer that way, that's all that matters.
I'm just trying to articulate my position clearly and forcefully, and push back a little against conventional wisdom on this forum. Don't mean to be offensive/disrespectful to anybody's preferred method of CCing. And, I'm ready to be persuaded by well reasoned arguments (not the ones like: "Having pistol without a round in the chamber is the same as carrying a hammer").
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