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Old 01-25-2013, 00:07   #41
Opie 1 Kenopie
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
These are good scenarios to ponder... I do practice one-handed chambering - catching the steep-angled back metal sight on the belt, or other clothing I'm wearing. I would concede that this is not the situation you want to find yourself in...

I think some of the scenarios you mentioned can be mitigated with situational awareness: being mindful of the corners, low-light areas, etc. Not all scenarios, but some. But, I guess nothing will effectively address every scenario - unless you are willing to always carry a gun with 33-round mag and have it always in your hand and always with cartridge in the chamber 24/7...
Or more realistically vandros, how about e possibility that your weak hand might be busy doing something else? Like calling for help on a cellphone, opening a door, holding back a child or your wife. Pushing said loved one out of the way. Honestly folks. I fear for those of you who are so scared of their Glocks having an "accidental discharge" that you'd carry the dang thing without ammo ready. As a full time cop and LE weapons/tactics instructor, this is one of the most irresponsible methods of weapons handling I've heard of. I've been shooting since I was 5 or 6 (about 37 years now) and I was taught how to safely operate a lot of different guns. I have never had an AD. And I've never carried an empty chamber. OP, your CHL instructor is a clown and would be laughed off the range even here in nutty tree-hugging California. I wish you both the best, but fear for anyone who operates this way. You might want to consider the above-mentioned spray and rape whistle.
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Old 01-25-2013, 00:15   #42
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Four feet, you are beyond lost, unless you can fend the person off with one hand long enough to draw. As has been widely discussed, the average person can cover 21 feet in about 2 seconds or less. The vast majority people would be hard pressed to draw and get a round on target in 2 seconds.
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Old 01-25-2013, 00:47   #43
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I ALWAYS carry one in the chamber. You might not always have time to draw your weapon then cock it. I feel that having my G19 locked, cocked, and ready to rock is an advantage!
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Old 01-25-2013, 00:59   #44
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Originally Posted by ArlenGunClub View Post
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
If you feel uneasy about one in the chamber, carry your gun for the first few days/weeks...as long as it takes with a full magazine and nothing in the chamber.

As to carrying one in the chamber, yes, definitely something I do.
Why?
Unless you can guarantee that anyone trying to attack me will give me 5-10 second notice and will stand there and wait for me to react I will carry with one in the chamber.
That's right.....of course no one will do that.
So....yes one in the chamber.
Imagine 2-3 seconds of reaction time, you reading the situation and what's the right thing to do, are innocent people near etc. then 3-4 seconds for drawing and getting your weapon on the target, that is if you're good, plus another 2 seconds for you to rack the slide.

I'll stay with one in the chamber.
However don't do it until you start feeling ok about it and get very very used to your Glock.
For example that guy who recently shot him self in the foot or *****, I forgot, in Walmart while he was reaching for his wallet would have never fired that shot if it wasn't for that round in the chamber.
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:06   #45
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I did carry mine with one in the chamber, till my little daughter got bigger and bigger and started huging my leg everytime I came home. I don't know, it just didn't feel right knowing that the barrel with a round in it ready to go was pointing at her head, eventough I knew that it won't go off without pulling the trigger. I just couldn't carry it anymore with one in the chamber.

Last edited by Made in Austria; 01-25-2013 at 01:16..
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:27   #46
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Simple, if you don't want to or are skeptical about carrying with you're glock chambered. Don't carry a gun. What would be the point? U would have to draw rack the slide then fire. Against drawing and firing.

If you got into a gun fight with a guy that had his gun locked and ready to rock(god forbid that ever happen to any of us) and you had a cold chamber. Who do u think would win?
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:36   #47
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Those of you, (referencing the universal "you" throughout this post), that carry unchambered, learn about the Tueller drill. The short version is that from 7 yards, (21ft), a reasonably healthy person can cover that distance in a second and be plunging a knife in your chest repeatedly, by the time you drew your gun. It does NOT factor in having to rack the slide to chamber a round. Oh and as mentioned that's at 7 yards (21 feet). Research tells me your average armed encounter the VAST majority of time will occur at 3 to 4 yards, (9 to 12 feet).

So as your struggling to fend off an attack, possibly after being stabbed with a knife, pummeled with a club, or hit with a closed fist, (presumably by a rather large person), your going to have the presence of mind to, under GREAT stress, manually rack that slide by hooking the rear sight to your belt and pushing down? Not even close to likely when you consider the latter arguably is a fine motor skill, that on the calm of a practice range while standing up is not the easiest task to perform.

In the above scenario your gun WILL become a club! And in the above scenario we haven't even considered multiple attackers.

As far as CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT DISCHARGES, where you've elected to use the trigger as a finger rest, and violate the safety rules, well this is a training issue where you commit yourself to abiding by the safety rules 110,000% of the time you are even in the presence of a gun, notably KEEPING YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU ARE AIMING ON TARGET READY TO SHOOT.

The ONLY "accidental discharge" is perhaps when you get klutzy and accidentally fumble a gun in your hands, drop it and it discharges upon impact with the floor/ground. Most high quality guns made in the last thirty years have at least one, but more likely two internal passive safeties to mitigate against this. I might even allow for it happening during a reholstering in a holster that has some design flaw. This is VERY RARE. Likewise if in reholstering your finger is resting on the trigger and the gun discharges, you have committed a CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. Anytime a finger is remotely on a trigger takes away from the possibility of an "accidental discharge."

The carriage and use of firearms requires a heightened sense of awareness, especially when handling a gun, and keeping your finger off the trigger until on target ready to shoot. If you find yourself letting your finger drift onto the trigger when not ready to shoot, and you absolutely cannot make yourself aware of this eventually tragic habit, then I submit, as I tell my students, that perhaps you'll be better served with pepper spray. I don't mean this as a slight or insult, but as strong advice to keep you and others safe. I see people at the range all the time clueless as to where there finger is, doing administrative reloads with finger on the trigger, and racking the slide with finger on the trigger. These two are the most common. If you do these things you are UNSAFE with a gun. If you are clueless that you do these things with a gun you are DOUBLY UNSAFE!

Carrying with a round chambered and preventing criminally negligent discharges are a matter of taking personal responsibility for seeking training lightyears beyond whatever intro to handguns and or concealed handgun class you've taken.

I'm talking about a 1 or 2 day defensive handgun class with a reputable trainer, (I didn't say famous just reputable), who makes a large part of their living doing this. This class will teach you how to shoot and manipulate your gun under stress, and instill good habits. You'll usually shoot more than a few hundred rounds in the class. Of course the class will likely cost more than a few hundred dollars if it is multi day class, and that doesn't factor in travel, meals and bullets.

And no, having your a relative and/or friend that was in the military and/or a police officer to show you how to operate your gun is a BAD idea, unless that persons job in the military and/or police was to TRAIN people how to use handguns, and they had taken/received highly specialized training to LEARN how to instruct people. Again I see it all the time on the range someone with military and or law enforcement with marginal handgun skills, passing along these "skills" to a clueless new shooter. The blind leading the blind. Just because someone was in the infantry, (I was), doesn't mean they know how to shoot a handgun effectively. The same for law enforcement. The county sheriffs office I worked for had us qualify with a Glock 17 once a year, didn't matter if you worked the jail, served high risk warrants, or worked our inter agency drug task force, you qualified ONCE a year. The knowledge I really gained on how to shoot, and teach people, I sought out and mostly paid for myself, save for an instructor certification from a gun range I still work at part time.

If you can afford a gun, and a concealed handgun class, you can afford to take a class, and learn how to actually operate your gun. How can you afford not to? At the end of the day if you don't seek professional training to increase your skill set, and practice those skills frequently then you are fooling yourself in believing you'll magically prevail in the gunfight you've never trained for, AND you'll continue to be UNSAFE.

And all of this was the candy coated version.

Best,

Dave
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Last edited by D.S.Brown; 01-25-2013 at 05:39..
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:46   #48
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Four feet, you are beyond lost, unless you can fend the person off with one hand long enough to draw. As has been widely discussed, the average person can cover 21 feet in about 2 seconds or less. The vast majority people would be hard pressed to draw and get a round on target in 2 seconds.

This brings up several factors:

First, the importance of practicing over and over your draw and target acquisition (with an unloaded or practice blue/red gun of course). This includes drawing, pointing and directional shooting from the point of your hip, while holding off a defender with your off hand.

Second, the need to have a round in the chamber, because while it's difficult to draw from concealment and get on target in two seconds, it's nearly impossible to do so while also racking the slide during that time frame.

Third, situational awareness. If an attacker is within four feet, and decides to attack with a knife, club, etc., you will be hard pressed to survive the encounter. Most of us are not aware enough of our surroundings on a constant basis, to work hard to keep the distance between us and suspicious/shady individuals, whether that means crossing to the other side of the street, taking another route, or some other action to keep the distance and buy yourself precious seconds if you are attacked.
Tueller drill is not stupid, but it is also not reality. And FWIW, the guys that are getting sliced and diced performing this drill are carrying chambered.

It's just like those martial arts demo's where one guy throws a single punch and freezes while the defender works his way around him throwing kicks and punches until he administers the coup de grace.

It's just a chance to demonstrate some techniques with a live target that people can see. It has nothing to do with actual self-defense.

Tueller drill is the same. It demonstrates how fast someone can cover 21 feet. That is all.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing with your post. It just stimulated my brain cell.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:02   #49
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Carrying a gun unchambered is like carrying a hammer in your holster. As other said before, start carrying with a full mag and unchambered for a couple of days, then start carrying in your house chambered for a few days too, when you fill comfortable go outside and live your life as usual. Other thing that is very important for carrying is having a GOOD HOLSTER, do not save money buying a holster, it is as important as a gun itself, many accidents occur because of holsters failures.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:06   #50
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Originally Posted by danysw View Post
Carrying a gun unchambered is like carrying a hammer in your holster.
This is one of those utterly ridiculous statements that gets repeated over and over by people who aren't thinking about what they are actually saying.

You can't rack the slide on a hammer and then shoot fifteen rounds at various targets. A gun without a round in the chamber is still a gun and a hammer is, well...just a hammer.

I know it's confusing, but try to keep up.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Last edited by happyguy; 01-25-2013 at 06:58..
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:49   #51
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Originally Posted by GlockFanWA View Post
The instructor needs some instructing IMO.
Yep the instructor is a glock hater
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:04   #52
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Originally Posted by Made in Austria View Post
I did carry mine with one in the chamber, till my little daughter got bigger and bigger and started huging my leg everytime I came home. I don't know, it just didn't feel right knowing that the barrel with a round in it ready to go was pointing at her head, eventough I knew that it won't go off without pulling the trigger. I just couldn't carry it anymore with one in the chamber.
I have three kids two of which are old enough to do this. I have successfully trained my oldest to stay away from my right side. With the younger of the two i have to always exercise exceptional situational awareness until she learns.

My kids are one of the biggest reasons i keep one in the chamber. I always have one hand tied up carrying one of them or at least holding their hand. I wouldn't ever have enough time to even get a proper two handed grip on my gun much less load the thing. Come to think of it i need to practice one handed shooting alot more when go out next time.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:08   #53
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
This is one of those utterly ridiculous statements that gets repeated over and over by people who aren't thinking about what they are actually saying.

You can't rack the slide on a hammer and then shoot fifteen rounds at various targets. A gun without a round in the chamber is still a gun and a hammer is, well...just a hammer.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

Maybe the one that is making ridiculous and brainless statements is you. When I said “carrying an unchambered gun is like carrying a hammer” I was using a simile which is a figure of speech that directly compares two different things. Of course a hammer is a hammer and a Glock is a Glock. You need to think more before writing comments on others thoughts. Be respectful and you will be respected.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:10   #54
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Would you carry a revolver unloaded? Same thing really.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:15   #55
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Would you carry a revolver unloaded? Same thing really.
Some people do! Its just as stupid but they carry with the empty hole at the top so the hammer doesn't get "bumped" and go off.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:20   #56
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Loaded. Always!
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:24   #57
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Depending on the threat level carrying with no rounds chambered is OK by me. If I don't have time to rack the slide after displaying my weapon I was probably not meant to win that day.

Where are you carrying?

I don't believe that hollywood style quick draw shootouts among sober civilians are real.

Probably should be using feet while finding weapon. Paralysis of feet while focusing on holstered gun makes one a stationary target.

Of course each of us must make up their own mind and readjust actions as the situation changes.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:27   #58
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Wow, such a heated discussion. For me, always one in the chamber and a carry gun WITHOUT an external safety. I've been trained by some of the best and I am a trainer myself and I personally don't think I would have the wherewithal to reliably disengage a safety in a close encounter (read phonebooth distance) much less have to chamber a round. But that's ME, it's not the same for everyone. Some folks practice religiously with their manual safety and believe they will be able to find it and disengage it when the poop hits the fan. I'm a simple guy and like to keep things simple, that's why when I am off duty I carry a glock, I have tried all the rest over the years and the Glock keeps it simple, no manual safety, no decocker to get in the way of my thumbs forward grip (darn duty weapon). That said, I have taken a liking to my wifes Beretta Nano. That thing doesn't have a slide release, a great pocket gun!

For example, my wife likes her Beretta's in the "FS" configuration with a decocker/safety. I like mine to be in the "G" congfiguration with only a decocker. To each their one.

If the OP feels he can chamber a round, then that's his comfort zone. As an Air Force guy, the other services are surprised that our regulations direct us to have our M9s with a round in the chamber and the weapon on fire when carried (I carry an M11, but the same applies, round in the chamber - no manual safety).
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:54   #59
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Tueller drill is not stupid, but it is also not reality. And FWIW, the guys that are getting sliced and diced performing this drill are carrying chambered.

It's just like those martial arts demo's where one guy throws a single punch and freezes while the defender works his way around him throwing kicks and punches until he administers the coup de grace.

It's just a chance to demonstrate some techniques with a live target that people can see. It has nothing to do with actual self-defense.

Tueller drill is the same. It demonstrates how fast someone can cover 21 feet. That is all.

Edit: I'm not disagreeing with your post. It just stimulated my brain cell.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Actually, I don't see how your martial arts example applies. I guess your confusion was that you focused on the Tueller drill, which I don't believe I even referenced by name, rather than the results of the experiment, as well as many followup tests.

For instance, for a while, during his courses, Mas Ayoob would have class members run 7 yards and time it. He found that even elderly and somewhat mobility challenged students would cover the distance in about 2 seconds. The young, fit students might be more like 1.5 seconds.

That knowledge has nothing to do with fake martial art encounters, it has to do with having the information you need to properly train and more important, understand the importance of situational awareness and actively avoid putting yourself in positions where you can be attacked from close distance (I realize this last part is challenging to say the least).

As to your last statement about the Tueller drill doing nothing more than showing how quickly someone covers 21 feet? Um, yea, I think that was the whole and only point of my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D.S.Brown View Post

The ONLY "accidental discharge" is perhaps when you get klutzy and accidentally fumble a gun in your hands, drop it and it discharges upon impact with the floor/ground. Most high quality guns made in the last thirty years have at least one, but more likely two internal passive safeties to mitigate against this. I might even allow for it happening during a reholstering in a holster that has some design flaw. This is VERY RARE. Likewise if in reholstering your finger is resting on the trigger and the gun discharges, you have committed a CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. Anytime a finger is remotely on a trigger takes away from the possibility of an "accidental discharge."
Well, the other "accidental discharge" that we hear of from time to time, which is not related to using the trigger as a finger rest, is getting something stuck in the trigger. Granted, this is a form of negligence, but much different than accidentally pulling the trigger.

It's having a pull cord from a jacket, thumb break or other piece of equipment/clothing get between the gun and holster, and hooking the trigger, during reholstering.
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:07   #60
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Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
Up to a few years ago, I didn't carry one in the chamber myself. I practiced ALOT (with an empty gun of course) drawing and racking and had it down to a very fluid motion kind of like quick drawing with a single action revolver and felt good about carrying that way. Until I really started thinking of many different situations that I could be in, where this technique would be virtually useless and put my life or the life of my loved ones on the line. I always carried with the chamber empty, but the hammer was cocked. I did this just to see if I ever could accidentally make the trigger go off, without a round being chambered. I won't say that is impossible to make this happen, but it is very highly unlikely that it would. Carry with the hammer cocked around the house, with and empty chamber and see for your self how you feel about it. If you choose to practice, and I mean put some serious time into becoming fluid with a draw and rack motion, then that's ok. But the best way IMO, is for you to keep it chambered. You will feel better about it the longer you do it and you will feel better about knowing there's one in there for when/if the SH'sTF someday and you don't have time or the ability to draw and rack. And welcome to GT.
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