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Old 01-21-2013, 09:57   #51
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And no employer has any business telling its employees what legal personal items they may store inside their locked vehicles.
Unless that vehicle is on the employer's property.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:04   #52
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My property, my rules. If people don't like it, they don't have to come.
What about my "go to church" question?
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:07   #53
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What if I require you to go to my church on Sundays in order to work for me?
If your line of work requires religious attendance as part of the business, then it's legal.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:12   #54
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How many people here work for oil refineries either as direct employees or subcontractors?

On practically every refinery that I've been to; even ones in the Great Freedom Republic State of Tejas, alcoholic beverages are forbidden even in locked vehicles parked in the refinery's parking lot. Not even empty cans and bottles are tolerated - zero tolerance. Alcoholic drinks are legal to own if one were of age, and can even be legally transported if stored per local laws and regulations. Yet the refineries have made zero tolerance policies pertaining to having alcohol on their premises.

Same with guns.

They're not infringing on your rights to keep and bear arms. They simply don't allow you to bear arms on their properties, even if those arms were locked up inside your vehicles.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:49   #55
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If your line of work requires religious attendance as part of the business, then it's legal.
That doesn't make sense, FN. Making cars has nothing to do with guns. Banning guns in the parking lot is an arbitrary decision made by the management which is contrary to a Constitutionally protected right. If one supports that one should also support them banning religious freedom, I think.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:53   #56
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That doesn't make sense, FN. Making cars has nothing to do with guns. Banning guns in the parking lot is an arbitrary decision made by the management which is contrary to a Constitutionally protected right.
Your Bill of Rights protect you from the government, not from private citizens or corporations. You don't have First Amendment rights on GlockTalk, do you?

BMW/VW and a host of other corporate entities aren't telling you that you can't own guns or partake in shooting sports. They simply forbid you from bringing guns onto their properties. Surely it's not that hard to understand?

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If one supports that one should also support them banning religious freedom, I think.
You have the right to your religious belief and even religious practice at work, but only to a certain degree. You can pray to Allah or Jesus or Buddha, but you don't have the right to proselytize to your co-workers.

As far as going to Bible School or Sunday church, if you were to work as a Bible salesman, your employee can make it mandatory for you to go to Bible School or Sunday church (well, maybe they can't dictate which day to go on unless they pay you to specifically go on that date) even if you are not a Christian. You sell a product, so you better know what that product is about.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:00   #57
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Your Bill of Rights protect you from the government, not from private citizens or corporations. You don't have First Amendment rights on GlockTalk, do you?
I understand that and I agree with you, except for the fact that the state of TN has affirmed the right of workers to keep guns in their POVs, and in many cases the restriction prevents them from being protected while commuting, and thus barring them from employment. Usually I am as pro-property rights as anyone, but as I said, I can see both sides here.



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You have the right to your religious belief and even religious practice at work, but only to a certain degree. You can pray to Allah or Jesus or Buddha, but you don't have the right to proselytize to your co-workers.

As far as going to Bible School or Sunday church, if you were to work as a Bible salesman, your employee can make it mandatory for you to go to Bible School or Sunday church (well, maybe they can't dictate which day to go on unless they pay you to specifically go on that date) even if you are not a Christian. You sell a product, so you better know what that product is about.
Not at all my point. I was asking if you support a company requiring church attendance as a condition of employment as an absolute, the same way you're supporting this property rights question.

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Old 01-21-2013, 11:09   #58
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I understand that and I agree with you, except for the fact that the state of TN has affirmed the right of workers to keep guns in their POVs, and in many cases the restriction prevents them from being protected while commuting, and thus barring them from employment. Usually I am as pro-property rights as anyone, but as I said, I can see both sides here.
Then the TN residents need to take VW and other corporations with similar policies to court. But then these people will have to show the court that they are defenseless while commuting back and from work without firearms.

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Not at all my point. I was asking if you support a company requiring church attendance as a condition of employment as an absolute, the same way you're supporting this property rights question.
Of course I don't. It's an infringement on my First Amendment. The company is forcing me to change my religious practice when that practice has nothing to do with my work. VW doesn't say that employees can't own guns.

Now if VW were to make it a condition of employment that employees can't own guns at all, or maybe can only own pistols but no revolvers/rifles/shotguns, while these conditions don't have squat to do with work then that's another story.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:14   #59
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Now if VW were to make it a condition of employment that employees can't own guns at all, or maybe can only own pistols but no revolvers/rifles/shotguns, while these conditions don't have squat to do with work then that's another story.
So you'd be OK with praying to mecca during the workday if they said so?

Again, I don't see where having a gun in your POV in the parking lot has any effect on work.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:25   #60
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So you'd be OK with praying to mecca during the workday if they said so?
If their five breaks a day don't affect their productivities? Then yes.

If all they do is bow their heads and make their prayers, then yes.

If they were to come up to me and start telling me about if I don't convert then I'd go to hell, then they're not practicing their First Amendment rights any more. They're causing a hostile workplace environment against their fellow employees. Then their asses will get canned.

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Again, I don't see where having a gun in your POV in the parking lot has any effect on work.
It may not, but it violates company's policy on having privately owned arms on their properties.

I don't know what to tell you but the court has yet to rule that Americans have the right to bear arms at any and all time and at any and all places.

After all, don't most states require a permit to carry?
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:30   #61
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If their five breaks a day don't affect their productivities? Then yes.
What do you care about their productivity? They're the owners and they want you to pray. My question is are you OK with that.
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After all, don't most states require a permit to carry?
GA for one doesn't require a permit to carry a firearm in your car.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:35   #62
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What do you care about their productivity? They're the owners and they want you to pray. My question is are you OK with that.
Of course not. They are infringing on my Freedom of Religion, and it has nothing to do with the work.

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GA for one doesn't require a permit to carry a firearm in your car.
But the VW plant isn't in Georgia, now, is it?
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:43   #63
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Of course not. They are infringing on my Freedom of Religion, and it has nothing to do with the work.
Banning guns in POVs has nothing to do with the work, and is infringing your 2A rights in the same manner.



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But the VW plant isn't in Georgia, now, is it?
You didn't ask about the VW plant. You asked about CCW. I can have the recorder read it back if you like...
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:59   #64
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Banning guns in POVs has nothing to do with the work, and is infringing your 2A rights in the same manner.
It's on private properties and the owners say that you don't have the right to Second Amendment on their private properties.

Religious beliefs and practices at work also don't fall under the First Amendment either. They fall under Workplace Harassment laws. Neither you nor your employers have the right to cause a hostile workplace environment. So, they can't force you to pray to Allah or God because it's violating workplace environment policy. They infringe upon my First Amendment beliefs which then cause anxiety and ergo, I'm feeling harassed.

Now, if VW representatives were to go about haranguing known gun owning employees, and VW posting policies about employees not being able to own firearms outside of work, then they are also causing a hostile workplace environment and in effect violating the laws.

If VW employees were to think that they're being singled out because they aren't allowed to have guns in their cars on company's properties then they should take VW to court. Good luck with winning that fight.

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You didn't ask about the VW plant. You asked about CCW. I can have the recorder read it back if you like...
The thread is about VW plant in Tennessee.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:03   #65
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It's on private properties and the owners say that you don't have the right to Second Amendment on their private properties.
....
You've gone off the deep end.



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The thread is about VW plant in Tennessee.
Yes, but I was responding to your question "After all, don't most states require a permit to carry?"
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:59   #66
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It's on private properties and the owners say that you don't have the right to Second Amendment on their private properties.
If an individual's rights aren't absolute, what makes you think that a corporation's "rights" are? I don't see "the right of the Corporation" anywhere in the Constitution...in fact, one could easily argue that corporations possess no rights at all. Their property, their rules, huh? Does that mean that VW can kill every animal on their property and dump toxic waste on it?

Just as our 2A rights are frequently and outrageously infringed upon by government, so too can private property rights by that same government.
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Old 01-21-2013, 13:00   #67
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You've gone off the deep end.
Show me a court case that dictates otherwise. Employers ban privately owned guns on their properties all the time.


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Yes, but I was responding to your question "After all, don't most states require a permit to carry?"
So...do most states require a permit to carry; open or concealed? Or do most states don't require a permit?
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Old 01-21-2013, 13:03   #68
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If an individual's rights aren't absolute, what makes you think that a corporation's "rights" are? I don't see "the right of the Corporation" anywhere in the Constitution...in fact, one could easily argue that corporations possess no rights at all. Their property, their rules, huh?
Aren't corporations owned by groups of individuals?

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Does that mean that VW can kill every animal on their property and dump toxic waste on it?
If they have the proper meat handling permits and hazmat permits, then yes.

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Just as our 2A rights are frequently and outrageously infringed upon by government, so too can private property rights by that same government.
So, anybody can come to your house and spout off at the mouth and you can't tell them to GTFO? Muslims can get on your lawn and pray to Mecca, burn Christ in effigy? No problem? Because they have individual First Amendment rights?
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Old 01-21-2013, 13:06   #69
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So...do most states require a permit to carry; open or concealed? Or do most states don't require a permit?
So you support the right of those employees with CCW permits to keep guns in their POVs at VW?
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Old 01-21-2013, 13:10   #70
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So you support the right of those employees with CCW permits to keep guns in their POVs at VW?
I support VW's policy. I may not agree with it, but I support it. If I don't like it, I can always go work somewhere else.

They aren't violating my rights to keep and bear arms. They aren't dictating to me that I can't own firearms and work for the at the same time. They just don't want me to bring my own firearms on their properties.

Just like I don't want some loudmouthed liberals (or religious nuts) coming onto my properties and say whatever they want to say. Or some commando wannabe coming on my property with guns. At least not without my permission to say or carry. If they don't like it, don't come to my joint. It's that simple.

The Constitution is to protect the individuals against the government, not against other individuals.
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Old 01-21-2013, 13:20   #71
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I support VW's policy. I may not agree with it, but I support it. If I don't like it, I can always go work somewhere else.
Yes, we got that. We just disagree in that the employees have a need for employment, so they can't "just go work somewhere else" (times are tough). So if VW infringes on their right to self defense to and from work they are in fact creating that hostile work environment you mentioned before.

Like I said, this is not a simple case, but I'm coming down more and more in favor of the employees.
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Old 01-21-2013, 13:21   #72
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So you support the right of those employees with CCW permits to keep guns in their POVs at VW?
What "right?" It is private property. You sound like those libbies who want to force Chic-Fil-A to open on Sundays. HH
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Old 01-21-2013, 13:23   #73
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What "right?" It is private property. You sound like those libbies who want to force Chic-Fil-A to open on Sundays. HH
Go back to sleep.
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Old 01-21-2013, 13:27   #74
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Go back to sleep.
Actually, I was wide awake watching fnfalman eat you for lunch. HH
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Old 01-21-2013, 13:29   #75
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Actually, I was wide awake watching fnfalman eat you for lunch. HH
I don't care what or who FN eats or how much you enjoy watching, but I still think you're wrong.
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