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Old 01-16-2013, 18:27   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
To be completely fair, how many people have you ever met that tried to convince you how much better your life would be if you simply believed in unicorns and lived your life under their divine guidance?




Yes, when someone is that passionate about convincing you of their belief, even though your lack of belief could never impact them, I certainly question their motives.



I'm with you 100% on this last bit. Theists and atheists alike, there are good and bad, annoying and easy to get along with, in every group.
Nailed it, great post.


CavDoc does not seem to want to accept that in regards to the bold.



Theist don't bother him, only Atheist on GTRI.
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Old 01-16-2013, 18:39   #77
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Did I say that the issue was direct proselytizing? No, I did not. I was clearly referring to theist efforts to pass laws that would restrict everyone to their narrow belief of what their mythical deity mandates (whether the public shares that view of morality or not).

Are you going to seriously tell me that you are completely unaware of the national debates regarding key issues such as stem cell research, gay marriage and abortion? I find that difficult to believe. Rather, I think that you understood my point completely and chose instead to mischaracterize it such that it would be easier to counter (i.e. you built another strawman).
You just described CavDoc's MO.
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Last edited by chickenwing; 01-16-2013 at 18:46..
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Old 01-16-2013, 18:46   #78
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Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
Additionally, there are television channels devoted to proselytizing various religions. My local paper had a daily religion section for a while; it's now restricted to Sundays. I am regularly approached while waiting for my public transportation with proselytizers; sometimes they knock on my door at home.
Although mildly annoying, I don't have a problem with any of the above. As long as (in the last case) they don't return to my home when politely asked not to. That is all constitutionally protected free speech. They should be allowed to be publicly foolish if they want to be, they just shouldn't be allowed to enact foolish (sometimes dangerous and unjust) laws based on their religion.
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Old 01-16-2013, 18:58   #79
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I am an atheist. I don't believe any form of deity ever existed. I have not looked for god(s) behind the moon, inside the Oval Office, on Jupiter and there are infinite other places I have not checked for the presence of a divine spook.

Having not looked and listened in these various locations does not lead me to believe there is anything like a reasonable possibility that Yahweh, Loki, Wotan, Vishnu or any of the myriad other alleged deites exist anywhere based on observable reality. I also disbelieve that werewolves, vampires, skinwalkers or chupacabras exist.

Agnostic to me suggests acceptance of a reasonable possibility of the existence of a being that can build and populate the earth in 6 days, give donkeys the gift of using human language and do any of the fantastic feats attributed to such beings. I do not consider the gullibility required to seriously believe such fantastic claims to be a reasonable basis for making decisions that will affect my life or the lives of others. For that reason I consider myself atheist and do not bother with the gnostic/agnostic prefix that some other people consider important to attach to the subject of belief/non belief.
Only because I see it as reasonably possible..... let me explain how I got there.

I'm almost certain that not every letter in any religious text is perfectly correct. Most of them were handed down by verbal stories long before the written word, and translated from other languages into current languages.

I may have told this story once or ten times. But I was at a conference once, and a British lady was there, a rather attractive one. We were all setting around, drinking bit and laughing a lot. It was getting late, and she started off with "Hey didn't I see you on my floor just a couple of rooms down from mine". I said yes, I believe you did. She said, "Will you come by and knock me up in the morning". At which time those that were still breathing at the table were sucking in large volumes of air. I deftly said something like " Ujjjj uhhhh guwhat??!!" She said "come knock on my door in the morning to wake me up". She was mortified when one of the other ladies informed her what "Knock up" meant in American English.

The moral of the story is that even similar languages, aren't always the same.

So, understanding that humans may not be 100% accurate, but also understanding that science is a wonderful tool that has shown us many wonders. Many that are almost beyond comprehension (otherwise the global theory of relativity and life would be available on amazon today).

Life is truly complex. Complex enough to at least open the possibility, that there may have been a plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=yAbMHlXJryM


The odds that cellular life would spontaneously occur, has to be less than the probability that I will win the lottery next week, If I bothered to buy a ticket.

So, I believe it's possible that a deity may have existed, or not.

No big. My belief doesn't hurt the theist or the atheist. You'd find that hard to believe from some of the reactions I've received. Almost hostile, in a religious sort of way. Just watch.

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Old 01-16-2013, 19:07   #80
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Did I say that the issue was direct proselytizing? No, I did not. I was clearly referring to theist efforts to pass laws that would restrict everyone to their narrow belief of what their mythical deity mandates (whether the public shares that view of morality or not).

Are you going to seriously tell me that you are completely unaware of the national debates regarding key issues such as stem cell research, gay marriage and abortion? I find that difficult to believe. Rather, I think that you understood my point completely and chose instead to mischaracterize it such that it would be easier to counter (i.e. you built another strawman).
I'm sensing more selective hypersensitivity. It's becoming rather common, in a tiresome sort of way.

Stem cell: Not banned. Federal funding was withheld for a few years, not for the last several.

Gay Marriage: Has not existed before, is a relatively new concept, likely a hail mary (pun intended) that would be best accomplished by going for "Civil Unions" with all the benefits now, then add "marriage" in 10 years when no one gives a crap.

Abortion on demand is the law of the land. Morning after pills are freely available.

You're displaying a persecution complex that is not founded in reality. Look around you. Duh. You are living in one of the most religiously free countries in the world. I'm not sure where your persecution complex originates, but I'm sure it is a dark place that you don't want to reveal.



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Old 01-16-2013, 19:18   #81
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Maybe a math impediment is the reason for Cav PA never getting that MD.

I wonder if he understands what data is required to accurately make calculations on odds.


That argument falls somewhere between, "If people came from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?" and how perfectly a banana fits the human hand on the scale of retarded theist arguments.
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Old 01-16-2013, 19:18   #82
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Originally Posted by chickenwing View Post
Nailed it, great post.


CavDoc does not seem to want to accept that in regards to the bold.



Theist don't bother him, only Atheist on GTRI.
Darn, I thought we were starting to get along. Oh well, lets try again.

I've not been proselytized to by a person in real life, other than one atheist in the last 2 years. He's a nice guy, a Nurse Practitioner that is not overtly, but openly gay, his partner comes by and has lunch with him on occasion, as far as I can tell, everybody likes them both a lot. He has a huge party out at their ranch once a year, and invites about a hundred people to a great bar-b-Que and hay rides for the kids. He's rather upset that some christians don't approve of his lifestyle, while several openly christian and muslim, and hindu people around us have always shown him respect. One day when we were alone, he cut loose, and spouted a large amount of bile and vitriol against christians. I simply reminded him that I wasn't one, but that he should not be too upset about how things were around here. While not perfect, they were headed that way, and if he really wanted to rant against a religion, he could pick a better one.

Religious Issues

I do not consider myself a member of any religion. I don't take offense at the atheists that want to say agnosticism is a religion. I simply know what I know, and accept what I don't.

I find it hard to believe that some of you take such great offense at indirect proselytizing, while proselytizing directly, and cannot realize it.

It's very evident.
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Old 01-16-2013, 19:30   #83
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
Maybe a math impediment is the reason for Cav PA never getting that MD.

I wonder if he understands what data is required to accurately make calculations on odds.


That argument falls somewhere between, "If people came from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?" and how perfectly a banana fits the human hand on the scale of retarded theist arguments.
Didn't you say you clear about $61,000 a year? Trust me when I say math is not my problem.

Non Sequitur arguments are falling rather flat for me lately.

Try better.

Don't let your feelings of inadequacy and irrelevance get the better of you. You could do better, well....... maybe not, but at least make it obvious that you are trying.
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Old 01-16-2013, 19:32   #84
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In the last 6 months? Same number as theist. Zero. There was a guy about a year ago that PM'd saying he hoped that I would find god. He was polite about it. As best as I can recall at this moment, that's been it for a couple if years.




There are heroes and zeros in almost any group.
Nobody has proselytized to you for 6 months, man that would be awesome. I doubt I've ever made it 6 weeks.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-16-2013, 19:37   #85
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Gek, I gotta ask. Where are you going that you are being accosted by all of these theists? Are you setting in the pews every Sunday at church? I drive by a few churches on the way home, and I can't even remember seeing an advertisement on one.

Come on, admit this is selective hypersensitivity where you have the same reaction as a "B" movie vampire at the sight of a cross.

I have been proselytized by many more atheists here than theists, and by neither in real life in many years. The last time a Jehovah's witness was at the door was at least 5 years ago, and they left when I said I was not interested. I was once accosted at work about the evils of Christianity by a coworker, who is openly gay, who calmed down a lot when I informed him that I am agnostic, but that much hostility is unhealthy. None of us will every be accepted by all of us, globally anyway. It's important to be comfortable in your own skin, and while understanding what others may think about you, not really giving a mouse's fart about it.

Where are you going that you are not?

Anyway, if this really is true, then I understand why you can't figure out why we care about it.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...

Last edited by Syclone538; 01-16-2013 at 20:04..
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Old 01-16-2013, 19:46   #86
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Nobody has proselytized to you for 6 months, man that would be awesome. I doubt I've ever made it 6 weeks.
No kidding, where the hell are you guys hanging out that you are getting hit on by all these theists?

Is it possible that your overt atheism invites this?

I simply don't talk about religion, and people simply don't talk about religion with me. It's not that hard, and takes absolutely no effort. Everyone I work with knows my background, they know what I do, they know I carry a gun everywhere but were I work, they know I have taught classes on how to choose a defensive carry gun at my local gun club, they know that I am a subject matter expert in wound ballistics, an avid hunter, and a carnivore.

I'd guess that maybe two people know I am agnostic. It simply, almost never comes up in conversation. It it a Texas thing? Hell, I don't know. I simply find it hard to believe that people are being bombarded with religious messages on a daily basis.

Maybe I'm more tolerant. I do cook a turkey or two on thanksgiving (killed one of 'em myself this year). My family does exchange gifts on Christmas. No one believes in santa.

None of my family clubs the bell ringers over the head outside of stores. None of my family is homophobic. None of my family is antisemitic, antichristian.... I'll admit to being a little leery of certain sects of islam and openly upset about the WBC/Phelps clan. I've pulled out my wallet and emptied it when a patient entered my exam room wearing a Patriot Guard Rider's vest. Those guys are really cool. Donate to them if you have a few extra dollars hanging around.

But no kidding, how often are people trying to openly get you to join their religion (other than the atheists here).

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Old 01-16-2013, 19:48   #87
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Where are you going that you are not?

Anyway, if this really is true, then I understand why you can't figure out why we care about it.
Not sure if there is a typo there or not?????

I've not been anywhere that I have not gone.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-16-2013 at 19:49..
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:08   #88
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Not sure if there is a typo there or not?????

I've not been anywhere that I have not gone.
Sorry, I bolded the part that was in response to.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:15   #89
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No kidding, where the hell are you guys hanging out that you are getting hit on by all these theists?

Is it possible that your overt atheism invites this?

I simply don't talk about religion, and people simply don't talk about religion with me. It's not that hard, and takes absolutely no effort. Everyone I work with knows my background, they know what I do, they know I carry a gun everywhere but were I work, they know I have taught classes on how to choose a defensive carry gun at my local gun club, they know that I am a subject matter expert in wound ballistics, an avid hunter, and a carnivore.

I'd guess that maybe two people know I am agnostic. It simply, almost never comes up in conversation. It it a Texas thing? Hell, I don't know. I simply find it hard to believe that people are being bombarded with religious messages on a daily basis.

Maybe I'm more tolerant. I do cook a turkey or two on thanksgiving (killed one of 'em myself this year). My family does exchange gifts on Christmas. No one believes in santa.

None of my family clubs the bell ringers over the head outside of stores. None of my family is homophobic. None of my family is antisemitic, antichristian.... I'll admit to being a little leery of certain sects of islam and openly upset about the WBC/Phelps clan. I've pulled out my wallet and emptied it when a patient entered my exam room wearing a Patriot Guard Rider's vest. Those guys are really cool. Donate to them if you have a few extra dollars hanging around.

But no kidding, how often are people trying to openly get you to join their religion (other than the atheists here).

I don't feel like taking the time to divide up your post and respond to each part, so I'll just go in order.


That's just the way it's always been.

No. Most people think I'm Christian, and I let them, because it would devastate my mother and grandmother to learn I'm not.

I don't remember starting a conversation on religion, at all.

I think there are 5 people that know I'm atheist.

At least once a month.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:24   #90
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There is no mythical "god", any non-niěve person will agree. People that need a crutch/government, maybe they need to "let go" of their "mass murder pills".



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Old 01-16-2013, 20:28   #91
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Darn, I thought we were starting to get along. Oh well, lets try again.

I've not been proselytized to by a person in real life, other than one atheist in the last 2 years. He's a nice guy, a Nurse Practitioner that is not overtly, but openly gay, his partner comes by and has lunch with him on occasion, as far as I can tell, everybody likes them both a lot. He has a huge party out at their ranch once a year, and invites about a hundred people to a great bar-b-Que and hay rides for the kids. He's rather upset that some christians don't approve of his lifestyle, while several openly christian and muslim, and hindu people around us have always shown him respect. One day when we were alone, he cut loose, and spouted a large amount of bile and vitriol against christians. I simply reminded him that I wasn't one, but that he should not be too upset about how things were around here. While not perfect, they were headed that way, and if he really wanted to rant against a religion, he could pick a better one.

Religious Issues

I do not consider myself a member of any religion. I don't take offense at the atheists that want to say agnosticism is a religion. I simply know what I know, and accept what I don't.

I find it hard to believe that some of you take such great offense at indirect proselytizing, while proselytizing directly, and cannot realize it.

It's very evident.
My disagreement with you on this subject has nothing to do with getting along with you. I clarified your position because it was true. g36 was wrong.

The rest is hyperbole. That is your experience, others have had different experiences.

Your argument is definitely your opinion, but it's wrong and doesn't stack up.

You say you don't know if a god exists or not, fine. The real question is do you "believe" in a god or gods?

And for someone who doesn't know if there is a god, you make it plain that you know what atheist believe. Kind of funny.
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:31   #92
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I don't feel like taking the time to divide up your post and respond to each part, so I'll just go in order.


That's just the way it's always been.

No. Most people think I'm Christian, and I let them, because it would devastate my mother and grandmother to learn I'm not.

I don't remember starting a conversation on religion, at all.

I think there are 5 people that know I'm atheist.

At least once a month.
I'm shocked. Where are these people approaching you? I get around a bit. I go to stores, restaurants, booster functions, school board meetings, car dealers, hospitals, and a lot of other places. I honestly can not remember more than a half dozen times when I have been politely invited to a religious service in the last 10 years. No one has pushed. Religion is a VERY rare subject where I work. I do see some people wearing religious symbols, but that's just for them, not something that others have to kiss or anything like that.

I am really perplexed. Around here, religion is not a topic of discussion unless invited.

I guess if I was being pressured all the time by theists, I would feel a bit differently. As you can tell here, that's not the source of most of the pressure I am getting.
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:36   #93
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I'm sensing more selective hypersensitivity. It's becoming rather common, in a tiresome sort of way.
What I'm finding tiresome is your constant mischaracterization of my arguments. I said there was an ongoing national debate on these topics. Do you deny that?

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You are living in one of the most religiously free countries in the world. I'm not sure where your persecution complex originates, but I'm sure it is a dark place that you don't want to reveal.
My goal is to ensure it stays that way. I, personally, do not feel persecuted by any of these issues, but I also have no intention of standing idly by while others are persecuted. I guess it's that whole pesky oath of service thing nagging on my conscience.
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:37   #94
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The odds that cellular life would spontaneously occur, has to be less than the probability that I will win the lottery next week, If I bothered to buy a ticket.
...
I can't be understanding you correctly here.

If the odds that cellular life would spontaneously occur are less then the odds of you winning the lottery next week, then the odds that it did not occur are the same as the odds that you will not win the lottery next week.

Is this what you mean to say?
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:37   #95
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My disagreement with you on this subject has nothing to do with getting along with you. I clarified your position because it was true. g36 was wrong.

The rest is hyperbole. That is your experience, others have had different experiences.

Your argument is definitely your opinion, but it's wrong and doesn't stack up.

You say you don't know if a god exists or not, fine. The real question is do you "believe" in a god or gods?

And for someone who doesn't know if there is a god, you make it plain that you know what atheist believe. Kind of funny.

The truth? I believe it is reasonably possible that a deity has existed, or than none has ever existed. It's hard to give a digital number to an analog belief, but I'd estimate it approaches a 50/50 probability. Give or take about 20%.

I wasn't claiming that you thought I was right, just congratulating you on your sense of integrity. We don't have to agree to agree what is an honest argument or not.

Those two men didn't think it was hyperbole though. They were dead a very short time after that picture was taken. It's sad, but that is the reality in many places in the world. Life is much cheaper than it should be. Too many are killed for too little, and too many do much more than is required to earn death, and are allowed to live.
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:44   #96
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Ok now I see how he figures his odds. Pulls them from his ass.
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:45   #97
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What I'm finding tiresome is your constant mischaracterization of my arguments. I said there was an ongoing national debate on these topics. Do you deny that?



My goal is to ensure it stays that way. I, personally, do not feel persecuted by any of these issues, but I also have no intention of standing idly by while others are persecuted. I guess it's that whole pesky oath of service thing nagging on my conscience.


Where are you getting your information. The secular vs. Theist policy fight has been moving steadily toward seculrism in the last 5 decades.

I now that you believe

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Tell you what, I'll concede that my entire line of reasoning was illegitimate if you concede that religion is a scourge on the human race that must be eliminated if we are ever to be truly free.

And then we'll call it... totally lopsided in my favor.



But your belief is not tolerant, and far from constitutional.

We are going to have to disagree, as there seems to be no way for us to agree on certain things.
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:47   #98
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I'm shocked. Where are these people approaching you? I get around a bit. I go to stores, restaurants, booster functions, school board meetings, car dealers, hospitals, and a lot of other places. I honestly can not remember more than a half dozen times when I have been politely invited to a religious service in the last 10 years. No one has pushed. Religion is a VERY rare subject where I work. I do see some people wearing religious symbols, but that's just for them, not something that others have to kiss or anything like that.

I am really perplexed. Around here, religion is not a topic of discussion unless invited.

I guess if I was being pressured all the time by theists, I would feel a bit differently. As you can tell here, that's not the source of most of the pressure I am getting.
I don't go to booster functions or school board meetings, but otherwise, yes, all of the above.

The dealership doesn't really count though, as I worked there. The odds of it happening at a dealership now would be extremely low.

It is very rare that they are pushy. Pressured is not the word I would use.
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:50   #99
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
Ok now I see how he figures his odds. Pulls them from his ass.
GH, your burning ring of fire is not a place that I pull stats from.

But please, try to save a shred of your dignity here, and understand that analog belief systems are poorly described in digital terms.

Well, a shred may be too much to hope for, but you could try for the beginning of a shred. Give it a try.

Religious Issues
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Old 01-16-2013, 20:56   #100
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Where are you getting your information. The secular vs. Theist policy fight has been moving steadily toward seculrism in the last 5 decades.
Oh yes, the trend towards secularism is undeniable, but that does not mean the matter is settled. I don't intend to let the matter of individual liberty and freedom drop until it is ensured for everyone.

Quote:
But your belief is not tolerant, and far from constitutional.
Explain to me how arguing in favor of freedom of speech, religion and individual liberty for all is unconstitutional? I have a feeling this is another strawman for you. Freedom of religion does not include the right to dictate to others how they must live their life.
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CavDoc: "If you have to pretend that a person with a different opinion has an opinion other than his own in order to score points in an argument, you've forfeited any points that you pretended to have."
CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

Last edited by Geko45; 01-16-2013 at 21:00..
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