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Old 01-16-2013, 11:57   #51
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I am 100% Gnostic that there is no verifiable evidence there is a God.

That position will immediately change once evidence is presented.
With the addition of the words "that I am aware of" that would be a more accurate statement.

I haven't seen enough evidence to be convincing one way or the other. I have seen action and claims to action that lead me to believe many people are convinced they know the answer.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:01   #52
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
You make the same mistake other here make. It's not whether or not you believe something. It's what that belief is based on. Is your belief based on facts and logic, or something else. Believing there is a God without valid proof is different from believing that the absence of proof indicates there is no God.
There is no proof I have seen either way. The process of inductive reasoning involves evaluating a very limited amount of data (on the cosmic and temporal scales) to convince oneself that they have proof.

Action and activity of many, but not all, sure seems to indicate that there are some with firm belief on the atheist side of the scale.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:58   #53
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
My stance it that it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what others call you. What matters is what you think and the facts/logic that support your thinking. Claiming to know there is or is not a God is illogical.

I don't claim to be an atheists or an agnostic. The only title I have ever given myself is recovering Christian.
Define "matters"? It certainly matters what we call ourselves or others if our intent is to effectively and accurately communicate.
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:01   #54
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
You make the same mistake other here make. It's not whether or not you believe something. It's what that belief is based on. Is your belief based on facts and logic, or something else. Believing there is a God without valid proof is different from believing that the absence of proof indicates there is no God.

No, no mistake. With respect to gnostic/agnostic, it most certainly does matter what people believe. There is no physical proof of gods, but that doesn't stop people from "knowing" that God exists. Those people are gnostic theists. Whether that belief turns out to be true or not, doesn't change that classification.
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:07   #55
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
There is no proof I have seen either way. The process of inductive reasoning involves evaluating a very limited amount of data (on the cosmic and temporal scales) to convince oneself that they have proof...

What proof do you need to lack belief in something? You can't prove a negative. Just because we don't understand something explaining it with "magic" isn't sound logic.

When you distill it, that's what creationism is. We don't know how we got here, so "God" must have created us.
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:11   #56
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You can't prove a negative.
Some will say you can. That because there isn't any proof then the negative must be true. I do not agree however.
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:17   #57
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
What proof do you need to lack belief in something? You can't prove a negative. Just because we don't understand something explaining it with "magic" isn't sound logic.

When you distill it, that's what creationism is. We don't know how we got here, so "God" must have created us.
Some negatives can be proven. That's a common misconception.
https://www.google.com/search?q=can+...&client=safari


To lack belief? Probably next to none. But to believe that something does not exist, I guess that would have to have something someone thought was evidence.

In the long run, day to day activities for me aren't affected much by theists or atheists except in online discussions. It's just not something that's ever caused much problem IRL.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-16-2013 at 13:29..
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:26   #58
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Agreed, CavDoc. IRL there have been the occasional colleagues that wanted to proselytize, but no real issues for me, either.

I just find it a fascinating subject to discuss - what people believe and why they believe that way.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. The same way *most* people lack belief in yetis or chupacabras.

Last edited by hooligan74; 01-16-2013 at 13:26.. Reason: kant speel
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:37   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Some negatives can be proven. That's a common misconception.
https://www.google.com/search?q=can+...&client=safari
Interesting. I have previously cited the first result of your search in support of the notion that you can prove that god does not exist to a practical and reasonable level using inductive reasoning.

Thinking Tools: You can prove a negative
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:43   #60
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Agreed, CavDoc. IRL there have been the occasional colleagues that wanted to proselytize, but no real issues for me, either.

I just find it a fascinating subject to discuss - what people believe and why they believe that way.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. The same way *most* people lack belief in yetis or chupacabras.
How much time does the average person that lacks belief in unicorns spend chasing down every image of and believer in unicorns to stamp them out? If someone made that one of their top priorities in life, wouldn't it be safe to assume, that guy REALLY believes unicorns don't exist?

I guess it's just a level of degrees as evidenced by attitudes and actions.
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:50   #61
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How much time does the average person that lacks belief in unicorns spend chasing down every image of and believer in unicorns to stamp them out?
To be completely fair, how many people have you ever met that tried to convince you how much better your life would be if you simply believed in unicorns and lived your life under their divine guidance?


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If someone made that one of their top priorities in life, wouldn't it be safe to assume, that guy REALLY believes unicorns don't exist?
Yes, when someone is that passionate about convincing you of their belief, even though your lack of belief could never impact them, I certainly question their motives.

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I guess it's just a level of degrees as evidenced by attitudes and actions.
I'm with you 100% on this last bit. Theists and atheists alike, there are good and bad, annoying and easy to get along with, in every group.
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:57   #62
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To be completely fair, how many people have you ever met that tried to convince you how much better your life would be if you simply believed in unicorns and lived your life under their divine guidance?
And that's it right there. We don't have a problem in this country with unicorn believers trying to enact laws that they imagine their mythical unicorns would find acceptable. Thus, no one spends their time debunking unicorns.
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JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

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Old 01-16-2013, 14:01   #63
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^
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Pretty much that.
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Old 01-16-2013, 14:46   #64
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To be completely fair, how many people have you ever met that tried to convince you how much better your life would be if you simply believed in unicorns and lived your life under their divine guidance?
In the last 6 months? Same number as theist. Zero. There was a guy about a year ago that PM'd saying he hoped that I would find god. He was polite about it. As best as I can recall at this moment, that's been it for a couple if years.

Quote:
Yes, when someone is that passionate about convincing you of their belief, even though your lack of belief could never impact them, I certainly question their motives.



I'm with you 100% on this last bit. Theists and atheists alike, there are good and bad, annoying and easy to get along with, in every group.

There are heroes and zeros in almost any group.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-16-2013 at 15:18..
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Old 01-16-2013, 15:04   #65
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
And that's it right there. We don't have a problem in this country with unicorn believers trying to enact laws that they imagine their mythical unicorns would find acceptable. Thus, no one spends their time debunking unicorns.
I think you may have shut this BS debate down for good with that one.



















Nah, I'm not going to get my hopes up.
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Old 01-16-2013, 15:07   #66
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The other side of that question is have there ever been laws based on bad science?

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Old 01-16-2013, 15:09   #67
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The other side of that question is have there ever been laws based on bad science?

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Anything that ever permitted creationism in schools.
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Old 01-16-2013, 15:27   #68
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The other side of that question is have there ever been laws based on bad science?

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Global warming?
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Old 01-16-2013, 16:18   #69
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I am an atheist. I don't believe any form of deity ever existed. I have not looked for god(s) behind the moon, inside the Oval Office, on Jupiter and there are infinite other places I have not checked for the presence of a divine spook.

Having not looked and listened in these various locations does not lead me to believe there is anything like a reasonable possibility that Yahweh, Loki, Wotan, Vishnu or any of the myriad other alleged deites exist anywhere based on observable reality. I also disbelieve that werewolves, vampires, skinwalkers or chupacabras exist.

Agnostic to me suggests acceptance of a reasonable possibility of the existence of a being that can build and populate the earth in 6 days, give donkeys the gift of using human language and do any of the fantastic feats attributed to such beings. I do not consider the gullibility required to seriously believe such fantastic claims to be a reasonable basis for making decisions that will affect my life or the lives of others. For that reason I consider myself atheist and do not bother with the gnostic/agnostic prefix that some other people consider important to attach to the subject of belief/non belief.
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Old 01-16-2013, 16:55   #70
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And that's it right there. We don't have a problem in this country with unicorn believers trying to enact laws that they imagine their mythical unicorns would find acceptable. Thus, no one spends their time debunking unicorns.
Gek, I gotta ask. Where are you going that you are being accosted by all of these theists? Are you setting in the pews every Sunday at church? I drive by a few churches on the way home, and I can't even remember seeing an advertisement on one.

Come on, admit this is selective hypersensitivity where you have the same reaction as a "B" movie vampire at the sight of a cross.

I have been proselytized by many more atheists here than theists, and by neither in real life in many years. The last time a Jehovah's witness was at the door was at least 5 years ago, and they left when I said I was not interested. I was once accosted at work about the evils of Christianity by a coworker, who is openly gay, who calmed down a lot when I informed him that I am agnostic, but that much hostility is unhealthy. None of us will every be accepted by all of us, globally anyway. It's important to be comfortable in your own skin, and while understanding what others may think about you, not really giving a mouse's fart about it.

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Old 01-16-2013, 17:10   #71
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Gek, I gotta ask. Where are you going that you are being accosted by all of these theists? Are you setting in the pews every Sunday at church? I drive by a few churches on the way home, and I can't even remember seeing an advertisement on one.

Come on, admit this is selective hypersensitivity where you have the same reaction as a "B" movie vampire at the sight of a cross.
Did I say that the issue was direct proselytizing? No, I did not. I was clearly referring to theist efforts to pass laws that would restrict everyone to their narrow belief of what their mythical deity mandates (whether the public shares that view of morality or not).

Are you going to seriously tell me that you are completely unaware of the national debates regarding key issues such as stem cell research, gay marriage and abortion? I find that difficult to believe. Rather, I think that you understood my point completely and chose instead to mischaracterize it such that it would be easier to counter (i.e. you built another strawman).
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JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

Last edited by Geko45; 01-16-2013 at 17:54..
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Old 01-16-2013, 18:12   #72
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Gecko,
Laws are passed without regard to science regularly. Ideology plays a far greater role in the debates you mentioned. Politics, and the laws that result from them are often an attempt to legislate one groups morality over others. Theists have not cornered that market.
It's clear that you're offended by the Theist pushing morality without a scientific foundation, but are you equally offended by laws made based on inaccurate, or worse, dishonest science?

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Last edited by scottz0369; 01-16-2013 at 18:18..
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Old 01-16-2013, 18:22   #73
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It's clear that you're offended by the Theist pushing morality without a scientific foundation, but are you equally offended by laws based on inaccurate, or worse, dishonest science?
Yes. For instance, I am not a proponent of mandated carbon sequestration based on the assumption that global warming is caused by men. The earth is warming, that much is clear. That it is man made is far from certain and only constitutes a loose statistical correlation at best.
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CavDoc: "If you have to pretend that a person with a different opinion has an opinion other than his own in order to score points in an argument, you've forfeited any points that you pretended to have."
CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

Last edited by Geko45; 01-16-2013 at 18:22..
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Old 01-16-2013, 18:25   #74
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Quote:
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are you equally offended by laws made based on inaccurate, or worse, dishonest science?
I'm not Gecko, but I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you give an example of the laws you're talking about?
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Old 01-16-2013, 18:26   #75
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Did I say that the issue was direct proselytizing? No, I did not. I was clearly referring to theist efforts to pass laws that would restrict everyone to their narrow belief of what their mythical deity mandates (whether the public shares that view of morality or not).

Are you going to seriously tell me that you are completely unaware of the national debates regarding key issues such as stem cell research, gay marriage and abortion? I find that difficult to believe. Rather, I think that you understood my point completely and chose instead to mischaracterize it such that it would be easier to counter (i.e. you built another strawman).
Additionally, there are television channels devoted to proselytizing various religions. My local paper had a daily religion section for a while; it's now restricted to Sundays. I am regularly approached while waiting for my public transportation with proselytizers; sometimes they knock on my door at home.

I'm not aware of any directly corresponding proselytizing from the atheist camp. I've never seen an explicitly atheist broadcast television show that I can recall. I've never had random atheists come to my house to proselytize. I know there's the occasional "Good Without God" billboard, but I've never seen one in person.

And it appears to me that the majority of the time when atheists are heard from here, it's in response to something a theist has posted. That may be a consequence of the ratio, though.
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