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Old 01-14-2013, 18:04   #201
vettely
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Ok explain how a new infringement like this will work please. Just basic no need to get into the additional billions of $ and the newly funded agency required to track this. Also how it will effect the desired outcome.

I can't give all the specifics, the background-check policy would have to be hashed out. But just because it would require some work to get right, doesn't mean it can't be done. This is what wrote earlier, which, to me, doesn't seem so bad:

Buyer and seller meet at gun shop (FFL). The FFL holder runs a NICS check on the buyer. If the buyer is legal, he pays the private seller the agreed-upon price, the cost of the background check, and a little more for the FFL holder's time: $10 for the NICS and maybe another $15 to the FFL holder. That's $25 for peace of mind, and adds considerable inconvenience to criminals and just a little inconvenience for law-abiding citizens. Also, the law could and should be written so that the FFL holder and the feds cannot retain identifying information after the transaction is complete.
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Old 01-14-2013, 18:04   #202
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Compromise?

This compromise article should be mandatory reading: http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2...-ill-play.html
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Old 01-14-2013, 18:08   #203
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Not jumping on you, but I disagree. I Googled Motor Vehicle Exception so your prose is correct. I still don't agree with it... but

If you ever get curious, research the legal term "voluntary acceptance".


Accepting a license or permit to enable any activity is considered acceptance, acknowledgement, and agreement that the activity is (legally) a privilege.


At law a privilege is the precise opposite of a right.
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Old 01-14-2013, 18:30   #204
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I do not think that anyone in this thread has mentioned this cute little question....

WHY IN THE HELL IS THIS THE BUSINESS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ANYWAY???

Did you know that they had to pass the gun free schools legislation twice?
Yea, the first time they forgot to add the lame BS about how guns within 1000 feet of a school had a detrimental effect on interstate commerce. It is their go-to excuse for interfering in state and local affairs.

Let the states deal with it. Different states, different solutions.

Eventually enough data will emerge to see whether allowing concealed carry by teachers, administrators and custodians has a better outcome than magazine size restrictions and assault weapon bans. Eventually states with less effective laws will copy those with more effective laws. It is how it was meant to be.

Instead we have become so used to seeing the federal government looked to as the entity to solve all our problems.

Reagan was right, Government is not the solution to the problem, it is the problem.
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Old 01-14-2013, 18:36   #205
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
If you ever get curious, research the legal term "voluntary acceptance".


Accepting a license or permit to enable any activity is considered acceptance, acknowledgement, and agreement that the activity is (legally) a privilege.


At law a privilege is the precise opposite of a right.
Ah... see right there is why I don't believe in a license to conceal carry as it relegates our RIGHT to bear arms to a PRIVILEGE. Anyhow, I will look it up, informed is armed. Thanks
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Old 01-14-2013, 18:39   #206
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Well, folks, I'm not winning anyone over on the universal background check thing, but if you would, please read...

On the day of the Connecticut massacre, I was reading the news online. The story of the crazy Chinese guy slicing up school kids broke. After reading that story, I started scanning the opinion posts. I saw quite a few pro-gun comments, things like "See! Those kinds of things can happen with knives. Ban all knives. This proves it's not about guns!"

Well, I've always been pro-gun-rights, and not the "sporting guns" variety either. I support people's right to own so-called assault weapons. Nonetheless, I really get tired of hearing all the dumb, tired arguments about banning knives and baseball bats. We all know that guns are better at killing than knives. We know that semi-automatics are superior as weapon to bolt actions. So I wrote a comment, similar to this:

Look, those kids were hacked and sliced, but so far none of them died thank goodness. Now we should think about how that would have gone if the crazy guy had a gun instead. Because here's the thing: As soon as some madman in the US goes into an elementary school and murders a bunch of kids with a gun, then that might be the end of the Second Amendment as we know it. We need to figure out ways to at least try to prevent that from happening.

That's paraphrased, but pretty much what I wrote. That same day, just a short time afterwards, the story broke about Sandy Hook.

I had hoped that pro-gun people would finally see what we're facing. The Second Amendment might survive another mall shooting, but if another elementary school (or day care center, or playground) is shot up, then it's all over, even with a Republican House of Representatives.

I don't hear any rational discussions from pro-gun folks though. I just keep hearing about "them damned liberals," and "Obama" and "guns don't kill people," and "from my cold dead hands" and all of that same bull****. If we don't figure out some alternatives and show that we really care, then it is only a matter of time. The other side will appear as though only they have ideas for preventing massacres, and those people will take control of Congress in 2014 or 2016 or 2018, and then you will see some really serious infringement.
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Old 01-14-2013, 18:46   #207
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...
I had hoped that pro-gun people would finally see what we're facing. The Second Amendment might survive another mall shooting, but if another elementary school (or day care center, or playground) is shot up, then it's all over, even with a Republican House of Representatives.

I don't hear any rational discussions from pro-gun folks though. I just keep hearing about "them damned liberals," and "Obama" and "guns don't kill people," and "from my cold dead hands" and all of that same bull****. If we don't figure out some alternatives and show that we really care, then it is only a matter of time. The other side will appear as though only they have ideas for preventing massacres, and those people will take control of Congress in 2014 or 2016 or 2018, and then you will see some really serious infringement.
and you seriously believe that by compromising (yet again) on "common sense" or "compassionate" legislation that its going to stop anything? You think they are going to stop with black rifles? Or 10 round mags? I mean did you see NY is trying to impose a 7 round restriction now? You know what it currently is? 10 (Ten). Its a pipe dream to think there is anything positive to come by way of compromise. Its not a matter of not caring by the gun owning community - just like these restrictions have nothing to do with reducing gun violence.
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Old 01-14-2013, 18:48   #208
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"This is not a "gun" issue. This is a legal system and mental health system issue."

Respectfully, it is both. The kids were killed by a madman with guns. We need to try to prevent madmen from getting guns. It seems to me that one positive step - which has nothing to do with banning anything - would be to make sure law-abiding gun owners are not unknowingly selling their guns to people who are "mentally defective."

No, a background check would not have prevented this particular crime. It might, however, prevent a future crime. One more massacre like Sandy Hook and you can be sure that our gun laws will look like Great Britain's in short order.
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Old 01-14-2013, 18:48   #209
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Ah... see right there is why I don't believe in a license to conceal carry as it relegates our RIGHT to bear arms to a PRIVILEGE. ...
I agree totally.

Think of Massachusetts..
They require a state license to own any firearm.
Even if you never open the box in which it comes packaged, even if you never take it outside of your home, you're required to have a license to possess it.

Ergo, the state of Massachusetts has abrogated the 2nd amendment.
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Old 01-14-2013, 19:16   #210
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Well, folks, I'm not winning anyone over on the universal background check thing, but if you would, please read...

On the day of the Connecticut massacre, I was reading the news online. The story of the crazy Chinese guy slicing up school kids broke. After reading that story, I started scanning the opinion posts. I saw quite a few pro-gun comments, things like "See! Those kinds of things can happen with knives. Ban all knives. This proves it's not about guns!"

Well, I've always been pro-gun-rights, and not the "sporting guns" variety either. I support people's right to own so-called assault weapons. Nonetheless, I really get tired of hearing all the dumb, tired arguments about banning knives and baseball bats. We all know that guns are better at killing than knives. We know that semi-automatics are superior as weapon to bolt actions. So I wrote a comment, similar to this:

Look, those kids were hacked and sliced, but so far none of them died thank goodness. Now we should think about how that would have gone if the crazy guy had a gun instead. Because here's the thing: As soon as some madman in the US goes into an elementary school and murders a bunch of kids with a gun, then that might be the end of the Second Amendment as we know it. We need to figure out ways to at least try to prevent that from happening.

That's paraphrased, but pretty much what I wrote. That same day, just a short time afterwards, the story broke about Sandy Hook.

I had hoped that pro-gun people would finally see what we're facing. The Second Amendment might survive another mall shooting, but if another elementary school (or day care center, or playground) is shot up, then it's all over, even with a Republican House of Representatives.

I don't hear any rational discussions from pro-gun folks though. I just keep hearing about "them damned liberals," and "Obama" and "guns don't kill people," and "from my cold dead hands" and all of that same bull****. If we don't figure out some alternatives and show that we really care, then it is only a matter of time. The other side will appear as though only they have ideas for preventing massacres, and those people will take control of Congress in 2014 or 2016 or 2018, and then you will see some really serious infringement.
The problem is , people are looking in the short term. In the future, maybe not in our generation, or our childrens, but some time in the future, citizens may be called on to defend themselves and our homeland. Just because you cannot imagine it happening, does not mean it won't. It was a very real possibility in the 1940's, and who is to say what may be in the future. Do you really want to disarm average citizens on a knee jerk reaction to a terrible, but avoidable situation like Sandy Hook? Do you want to leave future generations unarmed and totally vulnerable to terrorists or foreign nations?
History tells us it can and probably will happen. I don't want my offspring cursing my name because we didn't have the courage to insist on retaining our God given right to defend ourselves.
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Old 01-14-2013, 19:25   #211
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Do you really want to disarm average citizens on a knee jerk reaction to a terrible, but avoidable situation like Sandy Hook? Do you want to leave future generations unarmed and totally vulnerable to terrorists or foreign nations?

No! No! Whatever gave you that opinion of me? I'm talking about background checks, not gun bans. I think that guns which are currently legal should remain legal. What I'd like to see are universal background checks and some sort of "safe storage" law to make it more difficult for thieves to steal guns and for kids and insane people to access them. I have a biometric strong box for my Glock. It opens in an instant and I can grab my pistol, fully loaded, with a round in the chamber. I can access it as quickly as if it were in my dresser drawer. Difference is, criminals have to pry it off the wall and cut it open, and kids can't get to it at all. That doesn't take away my right to own a gun. It doesn't require me to register my guns.
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Old 01-14-2013, 19:45   #212
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yay...AR pricing is going back to normal. Nothing is happening. I cannot wait until the big day tomorrow. /sarcasm.
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Old 01-14-2013, 20:04   #213
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Insane people voted for Obama

62,611,250 Americans are insane? That would be a lot of NICS denials.
Not at all. Obama supporters don't buy guns. They either want them banned or have the government give them to them through "spreading the wealth" or "hope and change".

BTW, member since 2006 and you have 12 posts and this subject brought you out of your slumber to post ad nauseam. I smell a rat, er, troll.

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Old 01-14-2013, 20:16   #214
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Originally Posted by TeoK View Post
"This is not a "gun" issue. This is a legal system and mental health system issue."

Respectfully, it is both. The kids were killed by a madman with guns. We need to try to prevent madmen from getting guns. It seems to me that one positive step - which has nothing to do with banning anything - would be to make sure law-abiding gun owners are not unknowingly selling their guns to people who are "mentally defective."

No, a background check would not have prevented this particular crime. It might, however, prevent a future crime. One more massacre like Sandy Hook and you can be sure that our gun laws will look like Great Britain's in short order.
It is most respectfully not both. By that same argument it could have been a car, plane or unicycle but it wasn't. It just happened to be a gun. We had a good system in place to keep mad men in asylums but now we want to cuddle their balls and hope they take their meds. I am sorry I will not agree with you.

You can say what if all day long but here is the deal, gun violence is not an epidemic like the media and bs politicians make it out to be. Last year more folks were killed by a fking claw hammer than semi-auto rifles. Is it horrible a bunch of kinds got kill? HELL YES, but messing with our guns and 2nd is not going to change that or keep it from happening.

If you are missing the underlying issues with this premise I can no longer help you. It is horrible but there are MUCH more dangerous issues to deal with than guns I hate to tell you.
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Old 01-14-2013, 20:20   #215
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Double post
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Old 01-14-2013, 20:28   #216
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Reports are that the Biden committee will announce tougher background checks to prevent guns from ending up in the hands of the mentally ill, a nationwide discussion on mental health, and school safety initiatives.

No restriction on assault weapons or mags or ammo.

Biden has said that his Senate colleagues universally opposed any gun control. So, Obama blames Congress for no restrictions.

I think they knew this was a dog and pony show gamble. If they won, they claim success, if they lose, they blame Congress.

Come Tuesday, those folks that paid $2000 for a $600 DPMS are gonna feel pretty darn stupid. The buyers market will be back by Spring.

I would also like to see some sources. From what I've read, they are going after mag capacity, renewing the AWB and being much more aggressive about it, even threatening Executive action.


http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...ons-86187.html
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Old 01-14-2013, 20:35   #217
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If they announce no ban then I will buy an AR15 when the prices return to normal. I don't really care about 30 round magazines. If I can't hit it in 10 rounds, then I don't have much chance.

How many targets will you face, and how quickly? Unknowns.

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Old 01-14-2013, 20:38   #218
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I'm really hoping this is true. My main objective this year is to get my hands on either a Noveske, LWRC, or LaRue OBR.
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Old 01-14-2013, 20:45   #219
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It doesn't matter what the White House said. They don't have the votes in the Senate. Biden knows this, as a veteran of the Senate.

I'll say it again. Vulnerable democrat senators are up for reelection in 2014. They won't touch the third rail.

This also has no chance in the House.

I don't see how this is so hard to understand.
Agreed, but how do we know Obama won't try to do it with an executive order?
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Old 01-14-2013, 21:02   #220
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Yea I can tell you if everything starts to get back to normal I will have all guns I want purchased as well as plenty of ammo for the foreseeable future.

I had a big list of purchases for this year (for me anyway) and this has been messing with my mojo.
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Old 01-14-2013, 21:06   #221
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Agreed, but how do we know Obama won't try to do it with an executive order?
He can try, but he will fail. He's saber rattling.
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Old 01-14-2013, 21:06   #222
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Agreed, but how do we know Obama won't try to do it with an executive order?
If what I have read and what I have watched recently is correct and I understand it correctly if the EO goes against the 2nd it is illegal and he can be removed from office for doing so. It might take a court ruling to do so but should be doable.
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Old 01-14-2013, 21:07   #223
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This must be your first rodeo.

I'm 45, been an NRA member since 1987.
When has any compromise of our gun rights ever done more good than harm?

And, which of the most recent mass shootings would have been prevented if private sales were illegal?
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Old 01-14-2013, 21:28   #224
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I honestly don't care about this. It isn't a big deal, we do it here. Take 2 seconds and doesn't cost anything. This is a compromise we should be willing to make to avoid any awb or mag ban.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Amen.
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Old 01-14-2013, 21:38   #225
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It doesn't matter what the White House said. They don't have the votes in the Senate. Biden knows this, as a veteran of the Senate.

I'll say it again. Vulnerable democrat senators are up for reelection in 2014. They won't touch the third rail.

This also has no chance in the House.

I don't see how this is so hard to understand.
Reid just said on Friday that he has the votes to pass it in the Senate, but not the House.
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