[Kilrain]

Originally Posted by MrMurphy

Quite a bit of it is, and whenever possible, i still buy American/European.

That's cool, but still, to insinuate that someone is actively supporting Communism for buying this particular shotgun is specious at best.

Also, regarding the "I wouldn't depend on it in a critical incident" folks. I'd reckon' that there are numerous parts in whatever vehicle you drive on a regular basis that are critical to it's safe operation that are, you guessed it, made in China. Lug nuts and wheel studs come to mind as well as the wheels themselves and numerous brake and suspension parts.

Bottom line, if you don't want one, don't buy one but unless you have some verifiable evidence as to it's inferiority, it's all just conjecture.

[Kilrain]

Originally Posted by concretefuzzynuts

Proud to say, other than wallmart socks, nothing and I mean nothing in my house is from modern day China. I would bet money I don't have () on that.

While I don't believe that you really understand just how much of the things in your house use parts from China, the fact that you have "Chinese" socks apparently, according to some, means you actively support Communism.

Way to go, Comrade!

[concretefuzzynuts]

Originally Posted by Kilrain

While I don't believe that you really understand just how much of the things in your house use parts from China, the fact that you have "Chinese" socks apparently, according to some, means you actively support Communism.

Way to go, Comrade!

My house is full of antiques. I buy next to nothing from China. I read the labels of my clothing, appliances, etc.

Nice try.

BTW... my socks are all right footed. DAMN!

[Walter Bishop]

The majority of people complaining about Chinese products are doing it using a Chinese made computer or smartphone.

[countrygun]

Originally Posted by Walter Bishop

The majority of people complaining about Chinese products are doing it using a Chinese made computer or smartphone.

Indeed. But, of course, that doesn't count, nor does their TVs Country of origin.

[Kilrain]

Originally Posted by concretefuzzynuts

My house is full of antiques. I buy next to nothing from China. I read the labels of my clothing, appliances, etc.

Nice try.

BTW... my socks are all right footed. DAMN!

Like the antique device you are using to access the internet to make the above post?

[Kilrain]

Originally Posted by countrygun

Indeed. But, of course, that doesn't count, nor does their TVs Country of origin.

Or their microwave, stove/oven, DVD/Blu Ray player, cable/satellite box, refrigerator, coffee maker, electric can opener, stereo receiver, speakers, thermostat, heating/cooling unit, internet modem/router, cell phone, house phone, water heater, most of the handles/fixtures/hinges in the residence, etc.

The list is probably endless.......but at least they aren't supporting the red scourge!

[Durden]

Originally Posted by Walter Bishop

The majority of people complaining about Chinese products are doing it using a Chinese made computer or smartphone.

No way. They are using honest to goodness Apple products, which are designed in Cupertino, and built in....wait....

...ooops, nevermind.

[Buffering]

While many parts and things come from China, we're not talking about anything than these two guns so let's not expand the net when it's just these sole weapons.

I'd like anyone to tell me of a Chinese manufactured firearm for non-military use that is know for durability, longevity, workmanship or any other marker that a quality gun has. The Chinese don't make anything like that. They are not known for their firearms quality and the Pardner, while capable of functioning just fine, is not in the same league as the 870. SWAT teams, LEO and other people who seriously use them, instead of casual commercial use, aren't using them and it isn't because they are dumb and like squandering tight budget dollars.

Use the Pardner for fun, plinking or HD but if one is a serious student of the subject and diligently trains and practices, the Pardner will find few friends on the range.

China has some stuff figured out but high quality guns isn't one of them.

[Kilrain]

Originally Posted by Buffering

While many parts and things come from China, we're not talking about anything than these two guns so let's not expand the net when it's just these sole weapons.

The reason the "other" things came up was because someone pointed out that anyone purchasing one of these shotguns was supporting Communism. The replies to that, regarding pretty much everything else in any home in the US, were appropriate.

Originally Posted by Buffering

I'd like anyone to tell me of a Chinese manufactured firearm for non-military use that is know for durability, longevity, workmanship or any other marker that a quality gun has. The Chinese don't make anything like that. They are not known for their firearms quality and the Pardner, while capable of functioning just fine, is not in the same league as the 870. SWAT teams, LEO and other people who seriously use them, instead of casual commercial use, aren't using them and it isn't because they are dumb and like squandering tight budget dollars.

Well, I’d start with the Norinco copies of the 1911 and M14/M1A, when they were available. Milled forgings of quality steel at a time when the “US” equivalent were/are castings.

As for SWAT and LEO, they also don’t generally use Browning BPSs, Browning A5s, Ithaca 37s(new or older production), Mossberg 590A1s(yes, some do, but not most by any means), Winchester shotguns(past or present) of any kind, FN shotguns(past or present) of any kind, Benelli shotguns(again, there are exceptions but not in any real numbers compared to the 870), etc. So what? By your own admission of “squandering tight budget dollars”, the 870 is a compromise, right?

Originally Posted by Buffering

Use the Pardner for fun, plinking or HD but if one is a serious student of the subject and diligently trains and practices, the Pardner will find few friends on the range.

Lack of “friends on the range” doesn’t diminish the usefulness or utility of a piece of equipment, please see the partial list of alternative “combat” shotguns listed above.

Once again, short of PROOF that the Pardner won’t function adequately, this is all conjecture.

Originally Posted by Buffering

China has some stuff figured out but high quality guns isn't one of them.

I’d reckon’ that would depend on your definition of “quality.” As it relates to a nice finish or tight tolerances or a myriad of other criteria, you may be right. As it relates to functional fireams, there’d be, literally, millions of AKs that disagree.

[Durden]

Originally Posted by Buffering

While many parts and things come from China, we're not talking about anything than these two guns so let's not expand the net when it's just these sole weapons.

I'd like anyone to tell me of a Chinese manufactured firearm for non-military use that is know for durability, longevity, workmanship or any other marker that a quality gun has. The Chinese don't make anything like that. They are not known for their firearms quality and the Pardner, while capable of functioning just fine, is not in the same league as the 870. SWAT teams, LEO and other people who seriously use them, instead of casual commercial use, aren't using them and it isn't because they are dumb and like squandering tight budget dollars.

Use the Pardner for fun, plinking or HD but if one is a serious student of the subject and diligently trains and practices, the Pardner will find few friends on the range.

China has some stuff figured out but high quality guns isn't one of them.

Yeah, whatever. If I could find a Norinco for sale, I'd buy them all day and night long.

As for the Pardner Pump Defender, your opinion is one of many, and free, but here are some other opinions from LEOs:

H&R 1871 Pardner Pump Protector - PoliceLink

[Durden]

Well, I spoke too early, as the Pardner Pump Defender looks to be A NORINCO 982 after all (all the better):

Review of Norinco 982T, 870 copy vs Reminton 870 Express HD


How Many Use or Like the Norinco 870 Clone...the IAC HAWK 982


Norinco 982 & Pardner Pump Protector Info Review

[concretefuzzynuts]

Originally Posted by Kilrain

Like the antique device you are using to access the internet to make the above post?

Didn't say everything. I don't live in a covered wagon.

[Buffering]

I went to those threads and some people like the gun and others didn't. There weren't legions of fans elevating the gun to better than an 870 status.

Earlier, in this thread, someone posted that there are millions of satisfied Chinese AK owners althoug if you scroll to our own AK forum it will be abundently clear that Norinco AKs are the core bottom of. AKs and the with the SKS. They are universal last choice if someone wants to drop money on an AK.

The Chinese 870 clome is an interesting girl but it isn't a Katherine Webb like an 870.

[RJHUB]

Ive got one older 870(butter smooth) and 2 newer, one HD and one super magnum and they just work.
I thought for the price of these, they were excellent for the money. I would not even consider an off brand gun unless it was my only choice.
In that case, whatever you can get is better that nothing.

What about getting parts? Are they available like the Remingtons?

[Bren]

Originally Posted by Texas357

Thicker parts is sometimes a compensation for poorer materials (or at least uneven material quality) and simplifies manufacture.

I'm not saying that's the case, but there may be a reason the Chinese felt the need to beef it up.

I think they learned that from Ruger.

[Kilrain]

Originally Posted by Buffering

Earlier, in this thread, someone posted that there are millions of satisfied Chinese AK owners althoug if you scroll to our own AK forum it will be abundently clear that Norinco AKs are the core bottom of. AKs and the with the SKS. They are universal last choice if someone wants to drop money on an AK.

I believe you are referring to my comment which was:

Originally Posted by Kilrain

I’d reckon’ that would depend on your definition of “quality.” As it relates to a nice finish or tight tolerances or a myriad of other criteria, you may be right. As it relates to functional fireams, there’d be, literally, millions of AKs that disagree.

Whether a Chinese made AK is as "nice" as a Russian or Yugoslavian AK is just as irrelevant as whether the Pardner is as "nice" as an 870 Police model. Functionally, they are equivalent for their intended purposes, best I can tell.

Originally Posted by RJHUB

What about getting parts? Are they available like the Remingtons?

Parts on the Pardner, with the exception of the barrel, are interchangeable with an 870. I've swapped bolts, trigger groups, forearms, etc between my Pardner and my 870 and they work fine. I'd suppose that used and/or new 870 parts are much easier to come by than trying to get individual pieces from China but I admit I've not inquired about what type of support H&R provides, if any.

[clancy]

Originally Posted by Texas357

.

I had an engineering professor who said the most amazing thing about Russian Engineers was that their designs worked - even after being built by Russian factories. American designs assembled in Russia just wouldn't have worked.

I am reading a book right now, The Forsaken, which tells about Americans who immigrated to the Soviet Union during the Great Depression. It was the only time during our country's history that more people left the US than came to it.

It tells how Henry Ford had a factory built in Russia to build cars and trucks. it was common for them to roll off the assembly line missing parts. Not just minor parts, but things like sparkplugs, steering wheels, and sometimes whole engines. By 1936 it cost on average $20,000 to build a Model A in the Soviet Union, and more often than not the car would not run, or could not be driven.