GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-29-2012, 08:00   #251
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,824
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlight View Post
This.

Mouthing off to a LEO, even in a small way, is just plain stupid. I was told, by MANY different people, to say 'yes sir', and 'no sir'. Answer questions, as simply as possible. Don't say anything you don't need to. If you haven't been drinking, he'll let you go. He'll let you go quicker if you don't mouth off to him.
I have never had an LEO refer to me by my properly title so why should I extend them the formality of calling them "sir"?
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:01   #252
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,571
Blog Entries: 1


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
I have never had an LEO refer to me by my properly title so why should I extend them the formality of calling them "sir"?
Good manners.
__________________
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
TBO is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:01   #253
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,824
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Random View Post
I respect your passionate defense, but you are now telling me that I have not seen what I have seen.
No. You are stupid to them and anything you say is BS because it contradicts that they ride in on white horses to save the day. Besides, you are not LEO so nothing you say is even true.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:02   #254
clancy
Senior Member
 
clancy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
How do you measure deterrence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by clancy View Post
If you are working a DWI checkpoint, and you stop someone and question him, are we supposed to believe that you are not looking for a reason to arrest that person for DWI? Are you foolish enough to believe we are not smart enough to be able to figure it out?

How would you react to a person who, when you stop him at a checkpoint, opens the window just enough to give you their papers, but not enough for you to be able to smell their breath and they refuse to answer any questions? It may be a hunch, but I seriously doubt you would just slip their papers through the crack in the window and just tell them to have a safe trip home. If they do not PROVE to you they haven't been drinking, are you going to let them go on their merry way? Please, let us all know just what your reaction would be. I am sure we will find it enlightening.
Maybe you could answer your question yourself. I am still waiting for you to reply to my question from last night.
clancy is online now  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:08   #255
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,824
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
How do you measure deterrence?
How do you measure it? Show me data showing the city you work for has deterred drunk driving through check points.

You want to spend money on doing something. YOU need to prove its effective.

If I claim their are aliens (not the mexican types,the outspace types) and want funding to guard against their invasion, they need to prove aliens exist; I do not need to prove alines don't exist.

So, since you can't prove deterrence, then you are arguing that everything you do is hokus-pokus BS that cant be proven effective.

So show us data that you personally, as an LEO have had a deterrence to prevent DUI or murder and are actually earning your salary. Show us data.

If the company I work for asked me to show data of what i have accomplished, that is easy to do.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.

Last edited by DanaT; 12-29-2012 at 08:08..
DanaT is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:08   #256
Gareth68
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Missouri....West of Mexico
Posts: 3,612
Send a message via Yahoo to Gareth68


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
How do you measure deterrence?
By results.


How much have DUI deaths gone down per annum since the institution of roadblocks?

Is it a successful determent?

Is it, as random implied, a fishing expedition?

Measuring, of anything, is actually fairly easy.

It's just math.

Whether you like the results or not.

__________________
Repent Harlequin said The Ticktock Man; you're a non-conformist.
Gareth68 is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:09   #257
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,824
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
Good manners.
Good manners go two ways. Call me by my formal title and you will receive the same.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:11   #258
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,824
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
Good manners.
And a cop deserves no more or no less social courtesy than other people I deal with on a professional level.

Edit to add:
I dont call the CEO of a multiple billion dollar company "sir"
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.

Last edited by DanaT; 12-29-2012 at 08:14..
DanaT is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:13   #259
noway
Senior Member
 
noway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Davie "Cowboy" , FL
Posts: 19,409
I'm not reading 10+ pages, but in my county DUI checkpoint produce more arrest and citations for NON-DUIs period.

Checkpoint are poor at catching DUI drivers and does nothing but piss off the 8 out of 10 honest drivers. If DUI checkpoint where so effective, why doesn't the sheriff dept conduct them all of the time and not only around holidays?

Also keep this thought in mind, checkpoints are as silly as limiting a AR15 to 5 rounds. Just a feel good event
noway is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:13   #260
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,824
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth68 View Post
By results.


How much have DUI deaths gone down per annum since the institution of roadblocks?

Is it a successful determent?

Is it, as random implied, a fishing expedition?

Measuring, of anything, is actually fairly easy.

It's just math.

Whether you like the results or not.


Since its just math, show us the data. Show us the regression analysis that correlates causation. Where is your data. Otherwise, you are just making crap up.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:14   #261
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,690


Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlight View Post
This.

Mouthing off to a LEO, even in a small way, is just plain stupid. I was told, by MANY different people, to say 'yes sir', and 'no sir'. Answer questions, as simply as possible. Don't say anything you don't need to. If you haven't been drinking, he'll let you go. He'll let you go quicker if you don't mouth off to him.
That's pathetic. Were you taught to bow as well?
certifiedfunds is online now  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:15   #262
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,571
Blog Entries: 1


Quote:
Originally Posted by clancy View Post
If you are working a DWI checkpoint, and you stop someone and question him, are we supposed to believe that you are not looking for a reason to arrest that person for DWI?- What a malicious mind you have. No, I don't look at a car and think, "I'm going to find someway to arrest this person". Paranoid/biased thought process you have there.
I look at a vehicle to assertain if the driver needs a closer look for investigation of impairment.


Are you foolish enough to believe we are not smart enough to be able to figure it out?- I've read a lot of foolish and not smart stuff in this thread. I've also read biased and dishonest stuff, but most of the stuff I've read is uninformed personal opinion, of which you and others are entitled too. Just don't expect people with relevant experience to bow down in awe of the "gems" deposited.

How would you react to a person who, when you stop him at a checkpoint, opens the window just enough to give you their papers, but not enough for you to be able to smell their breath and they refuse to answer any questions?- I would use my skills/experience/tools to ascertain whether they are just an asshat or someone who needs a closer look to determine impairment.

It may be a hunch, but I seriously doubt you would just slip their papers through the crack in the window and just tell them to have a safe trip home. If they do not PROVE to you they haven't been drinking, are you going to let them go on their merry way? Please, let us all know just what your reaction would be. I am sure we will find it enlightening.- I'm not here to educate you how to be an asshat to LE, or educate people how to drive drunk and get away with it. I'm sure you can respect that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clancy View Post
And then you can get arrested for public intoxication. No such think in many/most states. In MN there is no law you can be charged with just for being intoxicated in public.
Toward Zero Deaths - this is the largest Traffic Safety movement/organization in my state (and many others). Visit their website if you want to know more.

http://www.minnesotatzd.org/
__________________
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?

Last edited by TBO; 12-29-2012 at 08:15..
TBO is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:17   #263
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,571
Blog Entries: 1


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
How do you measure it? Show me data showing the city you work for has deterred drunk driving through check points.

You want to spend money on doing something. YOU need to prove its effective.

If I claim their are aliens (not the mexican types,the outspace types) and want funding to guard against their invasion, they need to prove aliens exist; I do not need to prove alines don't exist.

So, since you can't prove deterrence, then you are arguing that everything you do is hokus-pokus BS that cant be proven effective.

So show us data that you personally, as an LEO have had a deterrence to prevent DUI or murder and are actually earning your salary. Show us data.

If the company I work for asked me to show data of what i have accomplished, that is easy to do.
I have hundreds of arrests.
__________________
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
TBO is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:19   #264
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,690


Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Keeping people impaired by alcohol off the road, of course.

What did you think I meant?
Dunno, Russ. You seem to want to tap dance around and play games. Who could say?
certifiedfunds is online now  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:24   #265
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,582
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
http://www.duiblog.com/2005/04/15/

Its amazing, they couldnt arrest enough people on DUIs to get their grant money.

To add more to the story, the aftermath was many cases were dismissed or overturned based upon quotas.
That's a 2005 article. Isn't it a little dated?

Do you believe there are not performance goals attached to grants for other fields? If the goals are not met, funding is discontinued. Legitimate, articulable success ensures continuing funding.

If an agency does not meet contractual performance standards, there are reasons. You want to focus on malpractice by law enforcement using a 2005 blog piece. Okay, it happened, probably still happens. I'm certain you will provide recent evidence confirming that.

You say that piece states that Boulder did not get their grant money because they missed the number of arrests goal. The closest I find to your post is this sentence:
Quote:
"An agency could have their contact terminated if it doesn’t reach its goals, but we look at all the goals," said Mairi Nelson, spokeswoman for the Colorado Department of Transportation, which allocates the grant money.
Where did you find information that Boulder lost that funding?

Attorneys do use the quota defense. Sometimes it works.

Last, how does it relate to my post you quoted?
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:31   #266
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,690


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
Which essentially means that the LEO and Judges accept BS as "probable cause". To translate this into real world speak, a cop just has to make up a reason.
There are some scumbag judges out there.

In Louisiana, these judges are politicians, and lawyers obviously. Putting a robe on them doesn't change that.
certifiedfunds is online now  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:33   #267
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,824
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
I have hundreds of arrests.
And yet still dont know what a deterrent is.



de·ter·rent [dih-tur-uh nt, -tuhr-, -ter-]
adjective
1. serving or tending to deter.


de·ter
[dih-tur]
verb (used with object), de·terred, de·ter·ring.
1. to discourage or restrain from acting or proceeding:

So by definition, every person you have arrested you have not DISCOURAGED from actin;in fact they did act.

Thank you playing and PROVING you personally do not deter crime. Why are "we" paying you if you can't show us how you deter crime?
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:36   #268
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,571
Blog Entries: 1


Many of them haven't repeated=deterred
__________________
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
TBO is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:36   #269
Officer X
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Garden State
Posts: 1,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
Good manners go two ways. Call me by my formal title and you will receive the same.
And if anything had been proven here, it is that you have no manners
Officer X is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:37   #270
boomhower
Senior Member
 
boomhower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnd View Post
Only one State I know of, NJ, is charging DUI homicides as murder >>>>>we need all 50 States to do this<<<<
NC does as well. I depends on the circumstances and drivers history but they charge it with great regularity. Sat at the hospital for part of a shift with the last one, woman had absolutely zero remorse. It was sickening.
boomhower is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:39   #271
faawrenchbndr
CLM Number 281
NRA Life Member
 
faawrenchbndr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: US
Posts: 31,927
Considering how many innocent people drunks kill every year,
I have no problem with these check points. The more the better.
faawrenchbndr is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:40   #272
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,824
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
That's a 2005 article. Isn't it a little dated?
No.

Is the funding for the war on terror outdated because 9/11 happened in 2001?






Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Do you believe there are not performance goals attached to grants for other fields? If the goals are not met, funding is discontinued. Legitimate, articulable success ensures continuing funding.
What you are not reading, is that the performance goals are based on ARRESTS and they fell short of that. Why were the arrests lower?

In fact, wouldnt the ultimate goal of any DUI program, if it were for true public safety, be zero arrests because people were not driving drunk? Imagine a check point that had zero arrests over a holiday weekend because they didnt find any drunk drivers. Wouldnt that be a GOOD thing?




Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
If an agency does not meet contractual performance standards, there are reasons. You want to focus on malpractice by law enforcement using a 2005 blog piece. Okay, it happened, probably still happens. I'm certain you will provide recent evidence confirming that.

You say that piece states that Boulder did not get their grant money because they missed the number of arrests goal. The closest I find to your post is this sentence:Where did you find information that Boulder lost that funding?

Attorneys do use the quota defense. Sometimes it works.

Last, how does it relate to my post you quoted?
I did not state that they did not get their grant money. I stated that many DUI cases were dismissed or overturned based upon the quotas. Those were in the Boulder Daily Camera.

The DUI blog is a copied article from the Boulder Daly Camera. I read the paper in black and white when they were printed and their search engine and/or archives are not good.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:46   #273
noway
Senior Member
 
noway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Davie "Cowboy" , FL
Posts: 19,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
Considering how many innocent people drunks kill every year,
I have no problem with these check points. The more the better.
So more people are killed/injured by careless drivers, un-attentive drivers, changing the radio, texting, excess speed, and driving than any number of DUI fatalities per year for the last 2 decades.

So would have no problems with just checkpoint in general?

How about random warrantless firearms checks?

Are the victims and family members innocent in those above scenarios?

noway is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:50   #274
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 15,824
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Officer X View Post
And if anything had been proven here, it is that you have no manners
When you refer to me by my proper title,

Graf Prof. Dr. Dipl Ing Dana, then I will take your "insult" seriously. Until then, I say you lack manners.
__________________
Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:51   #275
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,690


Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
Considering how many innocent people drunks kill every year,
I have no problem with these check points. The more the better.
66% of fatalities involve sober drivers. What sort of war should we declare against them?
certifiedfunds is online now  
Closed Thread


Tags
call me by my title, doctor danat, drive sober, moving goalpost, roadblocks, still get pulled over
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 18:32.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,382
465 Members
917 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42