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Old 12-27-2012, 16:57   #126
M&P15T
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Yes, and no. Obviously you missed this post:Did you?The difference between your world and our world is reality. You believe those seeking control of all firearms will accept your token offer and go away. That is not what will happen.

Feinstein will submit her package. Pro 2nd Amendment individuals and groups will reject every point. Then talks will begin in committee. We will have to keep rejecting every anti proposal with irrefutable facts about how nothing in the proposal will impact gun violence. They will counter with emotion riddled rhetoric.

Compromise will not, should not enter the discussion for several days. Might the NICS requirement be an early casualty? Who knows? But, I would not offer it up Day 1.
No, I would not ever think that the Feinsteins will go away. They never have, and they never will, and I really don't care about them. That is absolutely not why I would offer up a concession. I would do it to pacify the folks that are screaming at other elected officials for anti-gun legislation. That would then (hopefully) cause the anti-gunners to lose their political ability to get votes to pass more restrictive and crushing anti-gun legislation.

I'm not concerned with the people that are screaming at Feinstein and her ilk to pass more anti-gun legislation. That's nothing more than preaching to the choir, and those votes are already written in stone. And Feinstein and her ilk cannot lose their next election for voting for anti-gun legislation. They wouldn't be in their positions now if their constituency didn't expect and demand that they would vote for it.

I am worried about the people that are screaming at other elected officials that can be swayed by public opinion. Folks that are worried that they will not be re-elected if they don't vote for anti-gun legislation. I'm worried about elected officials that under normal circustances would never think about siding with Feinstein, but will do so now out of political necessity.

And I would bring up a concession only should it be obvious that much worse anti-gun legislation has the votes to pass. Which I have said before.

And I would do it with the hopes that it would be the only casualty. It would all be in the "how" and "when" it would be brought up.

It's all about votes, popular public opinion, and political capital.

Thus endeth the lesson.

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Old 12-27-2012, 16:58   #127
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Obviously another difference in the world you live in.
Think Jack Sparrow.
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Old 12-27-2012, 17:03   #128
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Neither would I. I would bring it up only should it be obvious that much worse anti-gun legislation has the votes to pass. Which I have said before.
If they have the votes to pass the package, they would laugh your compromise offer right out the room.
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And I would do it with the hopes that it would be the only casualty. It would all be in the "how" and "when" it would be brought up.
Again, when they have the votes for the big package, your puny compromise would die a quick death.
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Old 12-27-2012, 17:21   #129
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What if you simple had to call a number and enter a persons ss# and you would get a yes or no. You could get a simple code verification that you keep to verify you made the call.

No info on what is being sold would be recorded

molan labe
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Old 12-27-2012, 17:25   #130
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If they have the votes to pass the package, they would laugh your compromise offer right out the room.

Again, when they have the votes for the big package, your puny compromise would die a quick death.
You don't offer it to the anti-gunners like Feinstein during debates!!! You hold a televised press-conference and offer it to the American People. You bring it to the American People in a manner that shows that the NRA and gun owners are reasonable and willing to work for the good of all. You do an end-run on the Feinsteins of the legislature by going straight to the American People.

That way if the anti-gunners don't accept it, THEY look like morons in the eyes of the people. They then lose their poltical capital and momentum, they lose the votes they are counting on. With the voting likely to come down to just a few votes one way or another, this is the politically savvy thing to do.

And this is precisely why you offer it up early, as soon as it becomes politically obvious that the anti-gunners can muster the votes they need. As early as possible, and the earlier the better.

Are you getting the mental picture yet? Have you never seen a political press conference?

Should the anti-gunners find themselves in the position of having the necessary votes to pass sweeping legislation, our ONLY HOPE becomes appealing to the American People. It would be our only shot at not getting crushed, and we absolutely would need to take that shot.

Good Lord, if we KNOW we're going to get crushed, why would we NOT take a shot at squelching the public opinion that gives the anti-gunners their votes??

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Old 12-27-2012, 18:42   #131
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
You don't offer it to the anti-gunners like Feinstein during debates!!! You hold a televised press-conference and offer it to the American People. You bring it to the American People in a manner that shows that the NRA and gun owners are reasonable and willing to work for the good of all. You do an end-run on the Feinsteins of the legislature by going straight to the American People.

That way if the anti-gunners don't accept it, THEY look like morons in the eyes of the people. They then lose their poltical capital and momentum, they lose the votes they are counting on. With the voting likely to come down to just a few votes one way or another, this is the politically savvy thing to do.

And this is precisely why you offer it up early, as soon as it becomes politically obvious that the anti-gunners can muster the votes they need. As early as possible, and the earlier the better.

Are you getting the mental picture yet? Have you never seen a political press conference?

Should the anti-gunners find themselves in the position of having the necessary votes to pass sweeping legislation, our ONLY HOPE becomes appealing to the American People. It would be our only shot at not getting crushed, and we absolutely would need to take that shot.

Good Lord, if we KNOW we're going to get crushed, why would we NOT take a shot at squelching the public opinion that gives the anti-gunners their votes??
First, the naïveté of that post is amazing.

Is that the total plan?

You want to announce to the general public that gun owners across the country agree to implementing NICS background for every firearm sale at gun shows.

In exchange, you want those people rallying behind the anti-firearms leaders to, and you believe they will, withdraw their support for any law or other restriction and regulation proposed by members of Congress restricting the sale, acquisition, possession, ownership, and use of any firearm not currently regulated and restricted.

Is that your complete plan?
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Last edited by RussP; 12-28-2012 at 07:14..
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Old 12-27-2012, 19:05   #132
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You can't compromise with them. This ain't my first rodeo.

If we surrender our right to private gun sales, we surrender our right to keep and bear arms to an evil government in return for some hope that they might sell us back the privilege to possibly keep or bear some arms, some of the time, if and when they choose to grant permission.

It's amazing that some people don't understand infringement.
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Old 12-27-2012, 23:47   #133
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I was thinking about this proposal and thinking about how this might be written. I came up with one question. Could a law be created and enforced that closed this method of transfer without finding out where all of the guns are to start with (eg. registration)? Currently, there is no federal registry and most states do not have one either. Could this be a back door into gun registration?
That is probably impossible and not feasible.
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:11   #134
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So you think we should threaten folks with death should they attempt to enforce anti-gun legislation.

Well, now this thread has taken a whole new tack.
No death threat at all, I just want those fancy boys to take a moment and think about a total gun confication and what that means.
If they are that concerned about it maybe they need to ruck up of shut up.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:41   #135
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Everyone, M&P15T has been discussing his "compromise" theory in several threads. He gets the same response in every one of them.

Gun show loop hole??

The Big Picture

I'm just gonna ask one question
Which leads one to ask how many more threads we need hijacked with this same tired argument, which results in nothing more than bickering and discontent (M&P15T vs. everyone - the very definition of trolling).

The more attention he gets, the more he craves - then folks give him even more... Then to keep the ball rolling, he points fingers at everyone, claiming they haven't the ability to 'comprehend' his logic... trolling even harder.

We understand just fine. You think that by somehow appeasing the antis on a 'smaller'(?) scale, that they will somehow give up or go away (regarding further legislation).

They won't.

RussP has ripped your arguments to shreds - every single one of them. Stop crying / implying that you are some sort of poor, misunderstood genius, and give it a rest.

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See ya in a few months.
We could only be so lucky - Hopefully a mod would be so kind as to make that happen. I'm sure the signal to noise ratio would improve dramatically.

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Sigline material right there...
Why, I have no idea what you're talking about, my good sir!

Last edited by Sammael; 12-28-2012 at 10:13..
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Old 12-28-2012, 17:30   #136
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the fact is, states wouldn't have to change their laws. Texas never changed a law for first AWB, in fact, that's when they passed the CHL Law. If the Feds want to make something criminal, then let them enforce and incarcerate.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind closing the "loop hole". I just don't know how it could be done that wouldn't be completely invasive. Besides, it's already a federal violation to transfer a firearm to an inelligbe person. Find a couple that have done it and hang out - but even after Columbine, the boys made 2 Straw purchases and the girls that ILLEGALLY purchased and ILLEGALLY transfered the weapons was never prosecuted.

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Old 12-28-2012, 17:38   #137
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Old 12-28-2012, 19:40   #138
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It's been a while since I've been on the forum, but with all the drama lately I'm sucked back in.

Compromise is not an option. There is no reason to compromise. Why should we compromise our rights under the constitution? You give an inch they'll take a mile. Once you compromise you're no longer successful. Is there a possibility some anti-gun legislation will pass? Sure anything is possible, but this proud American isn't giving.

Anyone on this board suggesting compromise is acceptable has their priorities wrong.
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Old 12-28-2012, 22:52   #139
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If they have the votes to pass the package, they would laugh your compromise offer right out the room.Again, when they have the votes for the big package, your puny compromise would die a quick death.
I agree with you Russ. I just don't see Feinstein winning this after the media uproar is gone. Yes, twenty kids died. That is horrible but in the whole scheme of things that is really not a lot of lives. Over one thousand people, including kids, die each day of cancer. We see car accidents claim lives each day and the cars are not banned. I do not think the fight will ever be over because the liberals will always want a "redo" on every argument that we win.
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Old 12-29-2012, 03:53   #140
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I agree with you Russ. I just don't see Feinstein winning this after the media uproar is gone. Yes, twenty kids died. That is horrible but in the whole scheme of things that is really not a lot of lives. Over one thousand people, including kids, die each day of cancer. We see car accidents claim lives each day and the cars are not banned. I do not think the fight will ever be over because the liberals will always want a "redo" on every argument that we win.
And "we", gun owners as a whole, sometimes take too long after a 'win' for celebration. Instead, "we" should immediately take up the fight against the remaining infringements on the manufacture, sale, ownership, possession, and use of our firearms.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:31   #141
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Originally Posted by SgtRambo View Post
I was thinking about this proposal and thinking about how this might be written. I came up with one question. Could a law be created and enforced that closed this method of transfer without finding out where all of the guns are to start with (eg. registration)? Currently, there is no federal registry and most states do not have one either. Could this be a back door into gun registration?
Can't be done without registration.

As long as papers are going to go around publishing names and addresses, I'm can't abide by registration.

But, if they did make it illegal you would be a fool to sell something to someone you didn't know really, really well.
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Old 12-29-2012, 14:09   #142
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The whole thing is a farce. Bloomberg and others have repeatedly tried to end gunshows time and again over the years. IMO, these authoritarians get VERY nervous when a large group of free, ARMED individuals are under one roof.
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Old 12-30-2012, 23:46   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
....

Would you trade closing the loop-hole for not having a major loss on anti-gun legislation.

What's the lesser of two evils?
You sound like a fed testing the waters

Don't know about your lesser evils but I can assure you that I aint got nothing to trade; least of all the 2A.
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Old 12-31-2012, 00:13   #144
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...Compromise is not an option. There is no reason to compromise. Why should we compromise our rights under the constitution? You give an inch they'll take a mile. ....
Or maybe two miles ..well, why not three...and you end up with a 16 trillion debt and more pretty soon. ( if I may divert from the topic.
We have two parties now in this country. The Wicked (D) and the Weak (R). Guess which one loses at a compromise?
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Old 12-31-2012, 06:28   #145
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This will probably be the one thing that will actually come from the recent tragedies. All the law will say is that if you seel a gun it must go through a licensed gun store. Big deal.
They will then have gun registration via form 4473
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