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Old 12-28-2012, 18:05   #151
ray9898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
ISnt it great that a cop thinks that 49 U.S.C. § 40103 doesnt exist?

So tell me, how Shapiro v. Thompson, decided when cars were in use and that 'all citizens be free to travel throughout the length and breadth of our land uninhibited" is not a right.

Or does Shapiro v. Thompson not apply because you dont like it.

Seriously...you want to split hairs over this?

You have a right to travel in any lawful manner but it isn't absolute depending on manner. Certain methods are subject to regulation, licensing and suspension of those privileges. Travel through the air may be a right, piloting the airplane is a privilege subject to regulation.

Last edited by ray9898; 12-28-2012 at 18:10..
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Old 12-28-2012, 18:09   #152
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I'm not really a fan of any sort of checkpoints, but they sure do catch a lot of drunk drivers. The only one I ever went through, the cop just asked where I was headed. Since he didn't smell booze, he just told me to have a nice night.
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Old 12-28-2012, 18:10   #153
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Now that I'm in the contract world I don't have a badge anymore. Got a State Department ID but I've never tried to use it to get out of a stop.

My biggest problem with the DWI checkpoints is more fundamental. It's a papers check. I've seen the arrests and fines they make off of them. Maybe one dui arrest in the bunch. The rest are fines and 'justified searches'. Walk up and ask me if I've been drinking. Fine. Why are you checking my brake tag, running my insurance, and my license? THAT is no longer a DWI checkpoint. You're calling it one to make it easier for the public to support/swallow, but if you're using it to check whether I look like I should be in that neighborhood, have expired insurance, have a warrant, or if I've paid my vehicle tax that year it is something else.

Saying a DWI checkpoint is about stopping drunk drivers is like saying smoking laws are put in place to protect you from cancer.
I agree with you 100%. To me DWI checkpoints are nothing more than an excuse for law enforcement to get the opportunity to go on a fishing expedition. I have been through dozens of them over the years. I have been asked if I had been drinking, asked for my license and registration, even had more tires checked a couple of times. What I resent the most is that I have to prove I have not committed a crime. At what point will we have to prove that we didn't commit a murder, rob a convenience store or did a home invasion?
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Old 12-28-2012, 18:29   #154
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Originally Posted by clancy View Post
I agree with you 100%. To me DWI checkpoints are nothing more than an excuse for law enforcement to get the opportunity to go on a fishing expedition. I have been through dozens of them over the years. I have been asked if I had been drinking, asked for my license and registration, even had more tires checked a couple of times. What I resent the most is that I have to prove I have not committed a crime. At what point will we have to prove that we didn't commit a murder, rob a convenience store or did a home invasion?
You haven't been forced to have a blood draw, or even perform field sobriety tests.

You haven't been forced to prove/disprove anything.

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Old 12-28-2012, 18:30   #155
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Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
Seriously...you want to split hairs over this?

You have a right to travel in any lawful manner but it isn't absolute depending on manner. Certain methods are subject to regulation, licensing and suspension of those privileges. Travel through the air may be a right, piloting the airplane is a privilege subject to regulation.

You have a right to have a firearm in any lawful manner but it isn't absolute depending on manner. Certain methods are subject to regulation, licensing and suspension of those privileges. Possessing a firearm may be a right, using the firearm is a privilege subject to regulation.
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Old 12-28-2012, 18:32   #156
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What I resent the most is that I have to prove I have not committed a crime. At what point will we have to prove that we didn't commit a murder, rob a convenience store or did a home invasion?
Settle down, the Stasi dont like your attitude. They are there for your security.
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Old 12-28-2012, 18:37   #157
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Now that I'm in the contract world I don't have a badge anymore. Got a State Department ID but I've never tried to use it to get out of a stop.

My biggest problem with the DWI checkpoints is more fundamental. It's a papers check. I've seen the arrests and fines they make off of them. Maybe one dui arrest in the bunch. The rest are fines and 'justified searches'. Walk up and ask me if I've been drinking. Fine. Why are you checking my brake tag, running my insurance, and my license? THAT is no longer a DWI checkpoint. You're calling it one to make it easier for the public to support/swallow, but if you're using it to check whether I look like I should be in that neighborhood, have expired insurance, have a warrant, or if I've paid my vehicle tax that year it is something else.

Saying a DWI checkpoint is about stopping drunk drivers is like saying smoking laws are put in place to protect you from cancer.
This.
How can someone support DUI checkpoints or anything that would average 1% success rate? For example....

http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/...t-results.html

Someone said "if it saves 1 child--or Uncle". Confiscating all legally owned guns would have a much better "save rate" but I bet you would not not support, would you.

Ps. I am sorry for the loss of your Uncle.

Last edited by groundhawg; 12-28-2012 at 18:39.. Reason: PS, I am sorry for the loss of your Uncle
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Old 12-28-2012, 18:43   #158
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Between my wife and I, we have numerous government-issues licenses and permits. Driver's licenses, Pilots licenses, nursing licenses, concealed carry permits, building permits, library cards, hunting licenses...probably a few others that don't come to mind.

So...what's stopping whatever government agency from attaching to any or all of those government-issued permits even more onerous waiving of one's rights?

Why not requiring a GPS monitoring device for ALL cars...with automatic issuing of a ticket every time it senses you rolling through a stop sign or going 71 in a 70 zone? No need to ask you where you've been, a simple RFID proximity download and any cop in your vicinity can know exactly where you've been. Implied consent for having a license.

Why not requiring a home inspection of all weapons, freezers, basements or any other place wild game could be stored for all hunting license owners? (guess what..in Canada, they can do this...at any time a game warden came come into your home, without warrant, and inspect whatever he wants. Refuse, and he can confiscate anything he deems might be used for hunting/fishing). I've been present for just such an inspection in Ontario.

How about a requiring consent for a home inspection of any and all printed material in your home as implied consent for having a library card? With refusing such an inspection resulting in automatic forfeiture of your home. Sounds extreme...but if you can lose your freedom for refusing having your blood drawn (even if you've never had a drink), what is stopping lawmakers from making this leap?

Got a cell phone? You're using the airwaves that belong to the government. How about requiring a license for that? How about tying some more "implied consent" to using the airwaves with you cellphone? Implied consent for monitoring your phone conversations. Your communications aren't being restricted, but your use of the government's airwaves is nowhere in the Constitution. (same argument for use of the government's roads, right?)

Yeah, yeah...I know...it could never happen in America.
There's a lot of things that could never happen in America.
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Old 12-28-2012, 18:49   #159
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What I don't like is that this opens the door to (ILLEGAL SEARCH AND SEIZURE ! ) Probable cause ?
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Old 12-28-2012, 19:22   #160
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You haven't been forced to have a blood draw, or even perform field sobriety tests.

You haven't been forced to prove/disprove anything.

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If you are working a DWI checkpoint, and you stop someone and question him, are we supposed to believe that you are not looking for a reason to arrest that person for DWI? Are you foolish enough to believe we are not smart enough to be able to figure it out?

How would you react to a person who, when you stop him at a checkpoint, opens the window just enough to give you their papers, but not enough for you to be able to smell their breath and they refuse to answer any questions? It may be a hunch, but I seriously doubt you would just slip their papers through the crack in the window and just tell them to have a safe trip home. If they do not PROVE to you they haven't been drinking, are you going to let them go on their merry way? Please, let us all know just what your reaction would be. I am sure we will find it enlightening.
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Old 12-28-2012, 19:24   #161
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Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time. – Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception. – Sun Tzu
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Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
Seriously...you want to split hairs over this?

You have a right to travel in any lawful manner but it isn't absolute depending on manner. Certain methods are subject to regulation, licensing and suspension of those privileges. Travel through the air may be a right, piloting the airplane is a privilege subject to regulation.
Why have we lost the war on firearm ownership, because we lost the war long ago on “rights”. We have LEO that seem to within two sentences change a right, as ruled by the Supreme Court, into a privilege. Once we are at that stage, it is only picking and choosing which rights they want to be privileges subject to regulation.

Maybe we should listen to them and their friend Nancy. She believes that the only firearms that we have a “right” to have are those in use at the time the Bill of Rights was written. I am not sure why we would stop there. There were no electronic sound amplification devices in the 1700s, so why should out freedom of speech not be limited by common sense restrictions to the devices in use in the 1700s? Printing, no more of the this pesky internet stuff, only printing presses in use in the 1700s. Opps. No cameras were in use so that is reasonable restrictions on our privilege of free speech.

See how stupid thisis? Yes. Stupid. We don’t restrict free speech to what was in use in the late 1700s. Since travel is a RIGHT, as ruled by the Supreme Court, wouldn’t that mean that travel by means available in modern times are covered under that right just as digital cameras are covered under the right to free speech?

But, where we have lost, is the people “protecting” us have bought into the notion we don’t have rights to travel but it is a privilege. They don’t even know the laws they spout about they blindly follow.

Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time. – Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception. – Sun Tzu
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Old 12-28-2012, 19:25   #162
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Stay home, have a few drinks, enjoy the New Year.

New Years Eve is rookie party night.


This!

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Old 12-28-2012, 19:27   #163
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If you are working a DWI checkpoint, and you stop someone and question him, are we supposed to believe that you are not looking for a reason to arrest that person for DWI? Are you foolish enough to believe we are not smart enough to be able to figure it out?

How would you react to a person who, when you stop him at a checkpoint, opens the window just enough to give you their papers, but not enough for you to be able to smell their breath and they refuse to answer any questions? It may be a hunch, but I seriously doubt you would just slip their papers through the crack in the window and just tell them to have a safe trip home. If they do not PROVE to you they haven't been drinking, are you going to let them go on their merry way? Please, let us all know just what your reaction would be. I am sure we will find it enlightening.
This answer will be funny. We know they are full of it. The answer will be "you dont know because you are not a cop"

But on you other question, they think we are stupid because they have a badge.
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Old 12-28-2012, 19:33   #164
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
This answer will be funny. We know they are full of it. The answer will be "you dont know because you are not a cop"

But on you other question, they think we are stupid because they have a badge.
Just shut up and comply. It's for your own good. The government is looking out for you. Your opinion is not important.
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Old 12-28-2012, 19:48   #165
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Why have we lost the war on firearm ownership, because we lost the war long ago on “rights”. We have LEO that seem to within two sentences change a right, as ruled by the Supreme Court, into a privilege. Once we are at that stage, it is only picking and choosing which rights they want to be privileges subject to regulation.

Maybe we should listen to them and their friend Nancy. She believes that the only firearms that we have a “right” to have are those in use at the time the Bill of Rights was written. I am not sure why we would stop there. There were no electronic sound amplification devices in the 1700s, so why should out freedom of speech not be limited by common sense restrictions to the devices in use in the 1700s? Printing, no more of the this pesky internet stuff, only printing presses in use in the 1700s. Opps. No cameras were in use so that is reasonable restrictions on our privilege of free speech.

See how stupid thisis? Yes. Stupid. We don’t restrict free speech to what was in use in the late 1700s. Since travel is a RIGHT, as ruled by the Supreme Court, wouldn’t that mean that travel by means available in modern times are covered under that right just as digital cameras are covered under the right to free speech?

But, where we have lost, is the people “protecting” us have bought into the notion we don’t have rights to travel but it is a privilege. They don’t even know the laws they spout about they blindly follow.

Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time. – Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception. – Sun Tzu
LOL....you are trying to merge two things into one. One more time, the right to travel and the privilege to do that on the public roadways as the driver of a vehicle are two separate things.

As explained in a US Court of Appeals ruling in Miller vs. Reed, California Dept of Motor Vehicles in 1999


Quote:
The plaintiff's argument that the right to operate a motor vehicle is fundamental because of its relation to the fundamental right of interstate travel is utterly frivolous.   The plaintiff is not being prevented from traveling interstate by public transportation, by common carrier, or in a motor vehicle driven by someone with a license to drive it.   What is at issue here is not his right to travel interstate, but his right to operate a motor vehicle on the public highways, and we have no hesitation in holding that this is not a fundamental right.

374 A.2d at 794 (citations and footnotes omitted).

Miller does not have a fundamental “right to drive.”   In Dixon v. Love, 431 U.S. 105, 112-16, 97 S.Ct. 1723, 52 L.Ed.2d 172 (1977), the Supreme Court held that a state could summarily suspend or revoke the license of a motorist who had been repeatedly convicted of traffic offenses with due process satisfied by a full administrative hearing available only after the suspension or revocation had taken place.   The Court conspicuously did not afford the possession of a driver's license the weight of a fundamental right.   See also Mackey v. Montrym, 443 U.S. 1, 10, 99 S.Ct. 2612, 61 L.Ed.2d 321 (1979);  Bell v. Burson, 402 U.S. 535, 539, 542-43, 91 S.Ct. 1586, 29 L.Ed.2d 90 (1971).

In sum, Miller does not have a fundamental right to drive a motor vehicle, and the DMV did not unconstitutionally impede his right to interstate travel by denying him a driver's license.

Same with City of Spokane v. Port in 1986:

Quote:

We are asked to determine whether RCW 46.20.021 and Spokane Municipal Code 16.20.021, requiring a motor vehicle operator to be licensed, unconstitutionally restrict one's right to travel......

It is well settled that the United States Constitution protects an individual's right to travel, although it is not always clear which constitutional provision affords the protection. See Califano v. Aznavorian, 439 U.S. 170, 175, 99 S.Ct. 471, 474, 58 L.Ed.2d 435 (1978); United States v. Guest, 383 U.S. 745, 86 S.Ct. 1170, 16 L.Ed.2d 239 (1966); Kent v. Dulles, 357 U.S. 116, 78 S.Ct. 1113, 2 L.Ed.2d 1204 (1958). [FN1] This fundamental constitutional right applies both to interstate and intrastate travel. Compare Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U.S. 618, 89 S.Ct. 1322, 22 L.Ed.2d 600 (1969) (interstate travel) with Macias v. Department of Labor & Indus., 100 Wash.2d 263, 272, 668 P.2d 1278 (1983), and Eggert v. Seattle, 81 Wash.2d 840, 505 P.2d 801 (1973) (intrastate travel). Freedom of movement is at the heart of our scheme of values, for it may be as keen an interest of the individual as the choice of what he reads, says, eats or wears.

FN1. See also, Edwards v. California, 314 U.S. 160, 62 S.Ct. 164, 177, 86 L.Ed. 119 (1941) (Douglas, J., concurring); Twining v. New Jersey, 211 U.S. 78, 97, 29 S.Ct. 14, 53 L.Ed. 97 (1908); Williams v. Fears, 179 U.S. 270, 274, 21 S.Ct. 128, 129, 45 L.Ed. 186 (1900); Crandall v. Nevada, 73 U.S. 35, 6 Wall. 35, 18 L.Ed. 744 (186

Ms. Port attempts to extend this fundamental rule, alleging she has a right, rather than privilege, to operate a motor vehicle upon public highways and streets. Consequently, she claims RCW 46.20.021 is unconstitutional as it makes the exercise of that purported right a crime. "Right" and "privilege" have assumed a variety of meanings, depending upon the context in which they are used. As used here, "privilege" means a qualified right or a particular advantage enjoyed by a class, beyond the common advantages of other citizens, Black's Law Dictionary 1077 (5th ed. 1979); see also R. Pound, Readings on the History and Systems of the Common Law 468 (3d ed. 1927), whereas "right" connotes an interest belonging to every person. Black's Law Dictionary at 1190; Pound, at 467-68; Compare 72 CJS Privilege (1951 & Supp.1985) with 77 CJS Right (1952 & Supp.1985).

Hence, driving an automobile on our state's public highways is a privilege and not a right because the activity is limited to a certain class of individuals, generally those over the age of 16 years, who have passed a driver's license examination. RCW 46.20.031; .120. [FN2] This privilege is always subject to such reasonable regulation and control as the proper authorities see fit to impose under the police power in the interest of public safety and welfare. See State v. Scheffel, 82 Wash.2d 872, 880, 514 P.2d 1052 (1973) (one does not have an absolute constitutional right to a particular mode of travel); Crossman v. Department of Licensing, 42 Wash.App. 325, 328 n. 2, 711 P.2d 1053 (1985) (privilege to drive not a "fundamental right"); State ex rel. Juckett v. Evergreen Dist. Ct., 32 Wash.App. 49, 55, 645 P.2d 734 (1982) (driver's license is privilege granted by State). This is because the right to a particular mode of travel is no more than an aspect of the "liberty" protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment. [FN3] See 314 U.S. 33, 62 S.Ct. 24, 86 L.Ed. 21 (1941). In Reitz, the United States Supreme Court examined the privilege to travel on our public streets and highways and concluded, at 314 U.S. 36, 62 S.Ct. 26-27:

Last edited by ray9898; 12-28-2012 at 20:09..
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Old 12-28-2012, 19:59   #166
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LOL....you are trying to merge two things into one. One more time, the right to travel and the privilege to do that on the public roadways as the driver of a vehicle are two separate things.
Just as the right to free speech and the privilege to use microphones to make a public speech are two separate things.

I am sorry that you cannot see why the right to travel is as much a right as anything else. Please tell us, when you personally come door to door to confiscate guns, that the right to bear arms is a privilege. I am 99% confident that when the orders are given to do it, you will do as you are told.
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Old 12-28-2012, 19:59   #167
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I admit that there is no guarantee they will pass a policeman.
Thank you...
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I am saying if they are serious about getting impaired drivers off the streeet it makes more sense to watch those areas of high concentration of bars and those drivers coming out of those parking lots.
Who says they do not saturate areas where and at times when there is a higher probability of encountering drivers under the influence? That is one component of the DUI program.
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That is a much more wise utilization of law enforcement resources than hoping a drunk passes an officer on patrol
You earlier advocated that as an alternative to check points. Actually, another alternative is, again, saturation patrols. This time in various areas selected to yield DUI suspects. That would be another component of the DUI program.
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or setting up a road block in a semi residential area and pulling everyone over that passes even though the closest bar is 15 miles away.
That is another component of the program.

At any given time and place, one or more of those components will be more effective than the other(s). Sometimes all are used, sometimes, none.
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Are you disagreeing with that?
See Above...
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I HAVE NEVER EVER BEEN STOPPED FOR DUI!!!!
Good, no need to get upset.
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I have however gone through DUI checkpoints 5 miles from my home in Florida frequently even though I lived in what was a dry county and the nearest bar was miles away. I was not exageraring when I said I have probably been through them about 100 times.
Have there been many DUI arrests in your county? DO people in your county drive into neighboring wet counties to drink?
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To me that is a total WASTE of resources. In business I would never ever allow that to happen. I only have so many employees and they can only work so many hours. I make sure their time is used in the most productive way possible. Anything else is a waste of time, effort and money. It would seem law enforcement should do the same.
What business are you in? Does it share any similarities with Law Enforcement?

In your business, if you were eligible for a Federal or State grant that would cover the expense of a program proven to increase performance in one aspect of your business, would you accept that grant and accept the profits from that increase in business?
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Old 12-28-2012, 20:05   #168
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Just as the right to free speech and the privilege to use microphones to make a public speech are two separate things.

I am sorry that you cannot see why the right to travel is as much a right as anything else. Please tell us, when you personally come door to door to confiscate guns, that the right to bear arms is a privilege. I am 99% confident that when the orders are given to do it, you will do as you are told.

Your little personal attacks that you always manage to throw into any discussion are cute, sorry you are unable to comprehend it is not black and white like you are portraying it.
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Old 12-28-2012, 20:07   #169
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You are 100% correct. But they sure will tell you about how much they are for liberty.



Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know thy enemy but not yourself, wallow in defeat every time. – Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception. – Sun Tzu

"The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood." – Aldof Hitler

“It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation;” – Adolf Hilter

“Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem.” – Joseph Stalin

“Democracy is beautiful in theory; in practice it is a fallacy. You in America will see that some day.” - Benito Mussolini

“Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived in their relation to the State.”- Benito Mussolini

"Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all." - Nikita Khrushchev

“We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society." – Hilary Clinton

"We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans” – Bill Clinton

“What is freedom? There is no such thing as absolute freedom!” - Benito Mussolini
In America , we have this strong bias toward individual action. You know, we idolize the John Wayne hero who comes in to correct things with both guns blazing. But individual actions, individual dreams, are not sufficient. We must unite in collective action, build collective institutions and organizations.” - BARACK OBAMA, Chicago Reader Interview, 1995
All good. To which I'd add:

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Old 12-28-2012, 20:08   #170
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Your little personal attacks that you always manage to throw into any discussion are cute, sorry you are unable to comprehend it is not black and white like you are portraying it.
Oh no. The constitutions and bill of rights ARE written in black and white.
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Old 12-28-2012, 20:10   #171
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In your business, if you were eligible for a Federal or State grant that would cover the expense of a program proven to increase performance in one aspect of your business, would you accept that grant and accept the profits from that increase in business?
So if I understand this correctly, departments receive federal grants that cover the man hours and so forth to run dui operations? Covers over time and whatnot?

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 12-28-2012 at 20:11..
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Old 12-28-2012, 20:11   #172
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Oh no. The constitutions and bill of rights ARE written in black and white.
...and you will not find "right to drive' or "right to pilot" in there.
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Old 12-28-2012, 20:11   #173
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Your little personal attacks that you always manage to throw into any discussion are cute,
Then state publicly that if an AWB occurs that requires confiscation and/or registration, that you will not enforce said law because it is unconstitutional. You will lose your job and your pension.

If you wont participate in confiscation/registration, state so and prove me wrong.
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Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
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Old 12-28-2012, 20:13   #174
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...and you will not find "right to drive' or "right to pilot" in there.
And yet "drive and fly" are included in "travel"

rav·el
[trav-uh l] verb, trav·eled, trav·el·ing or ( especially British ) trav·elled, trav·el·ling, noun, adjective.
verb (used without object)
1.
to go from one place to another, as by car, train, plane, or ship; take a trip; journey: to travel for pleasure.
2.
to move or go from one place or point to another.
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Quote:
Twice a week? 14 times a month?
Quote:
2x4=8, not 14.
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.

Last edited by DanaT; 12-28-2012 at 20:13..
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Old 12-28-2012, 20:13   #175
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[ss stoog] "Either we will zee you paperz, or according to the furher, we will zee your blood. Zee, no prezzure, it iz totally up to you sir." /ss stoog


This country is will go to hell in a hand basket without the Constitution being defended.
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Last edited by Peace Warrior; 12-28-2012 at 20:13..
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