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Old 12-28-2012, 15:27   #101
Jonesee
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Originally Posted by Officer X View Post
Worrisome, why. Because I write the appropriate procedures and state laws that I will follow (and must follow) to make an arrest and process a vehicle and arrestee.

The laws are in place, I know them and follow them, sorry if that is worrisome.

It sounds more like you "USE" the laws in addition to following them.

I'm not here to bash you or argue with you. I'm not one of those guys.

Your post is worrisome. We can leave it at that.
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Old 12-28-2012, 15:27   #102
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But, it's not all about you.

It is about the drunk a few cars back that had he not been pulled off the road then would have run a stop sign and t-boned a mother and her 3 kids at the next intersection, killing all of them. Maybe it would be your wife and kids. Who knows?
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You are 100% correct. But they sure will tell you about how much they are for liberty.



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“It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation;” – Adolf Hilter

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In America , we have this strong bias toward individual action. You know, we idolize the John Wayne hero who comes in to correct things with both guns blazing. But individual actions, individual dreams, are not sufficient. We must unite in collective action, build collective institutions and organizations.” - BARACK OBAMA, Chicago Reader Interview, 1995
Wow, not even close to what I posted.
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Old 12-28-2012, 15:33   #103
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Why don't you just show them your badge and maybe get some professional courtesy?

Now that I'm in the contract world I don't have a badge anymore. Got a State Department ID but I've never tried to use it to get out of a stop.

My biggest problem with the DWI checkpoints is more fundamental. It's a papers check. I've seen the arrests and fines they make off of them. Maybe one dui arrest in the bunch. The rest are fines and 'justified searches'. Walk up and ask me if I've been drinking. Fine. Why are you checking my brake tag, running my insurance, and my license? THAT is no longer a DWI checkpoint. You're calling it one to make it easier for the public to support/swallow, but if you're using it to check whether I look like I should be in that neighborhood, have expired insurance, have a warrant, or if I've paid my vehicle tax that year it is something else.

Saying a DWI checkpoint is about stopping drunk drivers is like saying smoking laws are put in place to protect you from cancer.
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Old 12-28-2012, 15:37   #104
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Wow, not even close to what I posted.
When you can say that YOU can be inconvenienced, or suspected of doing something, because of someone else, yes, it is close. Once the individual is marginalized, then the rights of an individual no longer matter. If it is not close, how can you morally justify that checking me for something that you have no reason to suspect me of doing is not marginalizing the individual?
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Old 12-28-2012, 15:38   #105
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Now that I'm in the contract world I don't have a badge anymore. Got a State Department ID but I've never tried to use it to get out of a stop.

My biggest problem with the DWI checkpoints is more fundamental. It's a papers check. I've seen the arrests and fines they make off of them. Maybe one dui arrest in the bunch. The rest are fines and 'justified searches'. Walk up and ask me if I've been drinking. Fine. Why are you checking my brake tag, running my insurance, and my license? THAT is no longer a DWI checkpoint. You're calling it one to make it easier for the public to support/swallow, but if you're using it to check whether I look like I should be in that neighborhood, have expired insurance, have a warrant, or if I've paid my vehicle tax that year it is something else.

Saying a DWI checkpoint is about stopping drunk drivers is like saying smoking laws are put in place to protect you from cancer.
HE already explained. It's not about YOU.
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Old 12-28-2012, 15:46   #106
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You have all of the grasp of law I'd expect from someone who says, "that is pimp."
The Okie Corral

It isn't refusing the breath tests that gives them probable cause, it is driving with evidence that you are intoxicated. By the time you refuse a breathalyzer, you have already been arrested, based on probable cause that you are DUI. The police don't get PC from the BA or base the arrest on it - it is evidence gathered aft6er the arrest.
You really got me on that one. Picture looks just like me.

Your understanding of how the law should work is sound, but sadly you're misunderstanding how it is being used.
As it currently stands you can stand there stone cold sober with no evidence to the contrary. Your sober refusal to submit to a breathalyzer is being used as the (only) probable cause for them to take you into custody, restrain you, and draw your blood against your will.

While I enjoyed your whigger picture you are mistaken. Twice.
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Old 12-28-2012, 15:55   #107
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When you can say that YOU can be inconvenienced, or suspected of doing something, because of someone else, yes, it is close. Once the individual is marginalized, then the rights of an individual no longer matter. If it is not close, how can you morally justify that checking me for something that you have no reason to suspect me of doing is not marginalizing the individual?
Again, not it.
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Old 12-28-2012, 16:00   #108
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Stopped Reading right there
I've never understood why some people are proud when they choose ignorance. "Well, the book said something I didn't like. I stopped reading right there."

I've only seen that behavior in 3 types of people.

1) The ultra-religious
2) The ultra-political
3) The ultra-'patriotic'

Now, I'm gonna be stuck wondering which one you are.
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Old 12-28-2012, 16:03   #109
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Serious question. Instead of casting the net of random checkpoints that ensnare plenty of people who haven't been drinking, why don't LEOs conduct surveillance of a bar each weekend. Post an officer with a radio near the parking lot, have him ID drunks driving off the lot, and have a pre-staged cruiser follow the drunk until he commits a moving violation, then stop him and get him.

The operation could move from bar to bar, even on a published schedule, so no one business could complain about unfair targeting.

Seems like shooting fish in a barrel is better than casting the net.
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Old 12-28-2012, 16:04   #110
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Again, not it.
Explain it to me then. What moral justification do you have to stop me with ZERO probable cause that I have done anything wrong. A check point is ZERO probable cause.

You will notice I said moral. Not legal. Because some judges have interpreted laws in a manner consistent with trampling individual liberty does not in fact make them moral.

This guy did nothing "illegal" either. Everyone of his actions were approved by judges and he was acting within the law. History is full of many other people just like him who were acting in a "legal" manner but legal was not the same as moral. Shall I start a list for you?

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Old 12-28-2012, 16:18   #111
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...

Your understanding of how the law should work is sound, but sadly you're misunderstanding how it is being used.
As it currently stands you can stand there stone cold sober with no evidence to the contrary. Your sober refusal to submit to a breathalyzer is being used as the (only) probable cause for them to take you into custody, restrain you, and draw your blood against your will.

....
That may be how it is happening or it may be your opinion of how it is happening. At least around here the refusal with no other evidence is not sufficient to get to the point where blood is forcibly drawn. Do you by chance have any cases in which blood was forced based solely on the refusal?
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Old 12-28-2012, 16:18   #112
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You really got me on that one. Picture looks just like me.

Your understanding of how the law should work is sound, but sadly you're misunderstanding how it is being used.
As it currently stands you can stand there stone cold sober with no evidence to the contrary. Your sober refusal to submit to a breathalyzer is being used as the (only) probable cause for them to take you into custody, restrain you, and draw your blood against your will.

While I enjoyed your whigger picture you are mistaken. Twice.
Have you - honestly - been pulled aside for a breathalyzer? Because I find that incredibly hard to believe if you weren't first showing some other indication - slurred speech, smell of alcohol, etc - first. As was noted, a breathalyzer isn't just a random test they break out "just in case", it's to confirm prior suspicions.

Louisiana has the implied consent, though. As so as your request and sign your name to a driver's license, you a consenting to that breathalyzer every time you turn the key. By trying to refuse, you've already violated a contract that you set up with the state, because when you signed it, you said "yes, sir, Mr. Office of Motor Vehicles, I agree that I will do these tests any time I'm asked."

If you didn't read the fine print, go turn in your license now and I guarantee you shouldn't ever be asked at a checkpoint like that again. See how easy that is?

Your other course of action is to work through the government to remove the implied consent law. I wish you luck, and until that happens, if you drive and they say blow, you blow.

YOU agreed to it, no one's forcing you.
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Old 12-28-2012, 16:28   #113
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Is it a CT thing to announce the dates, times and locations of dwi or seatbelt checks ahead of time, or is that standard practice in other places?

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Old 12-28-2012, 16:44   #114
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Originally Posted by F14Scott View Post
Serious question. Instead of casting the net of random checkpoints that ensnare plenty of people who haven't been drinking, why don't LEOs conduct surveillance of a bar each weekend. Post an officer with a radio near the parking lot, have him ID drunks driving off the lot, and have a pre-staged cruiser follow the drunk until he commits a moving violation, then stop him and get him.

The operation could move from bar to bar, even on a published schedule, so no one business could complain about unfair targeting.

Seems like shooting fish in a barrel is better than casting the net.
How about those on the road after drinking at private homes?
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Last edited by RussP; 12-28-2012 at 16:45..
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Old 12-28-2012, 16:50   #115
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Remember Driving IS a privlidge NOT a right. When you sign your name on the application you ARE agreeing to follow ALL the rules and laws that govern. As for refusing the test.. it's called implied consent (Remember What YOU signed)
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Old 12-28-2012, 16:50   #116
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How about those on the road after drinking at private homes?

Like speeding or any other crime, you are not going to catch everyone. But if you are looking for drug dealers I would say you need to look in those areas where they are known to congregate. Same for drunk drivers. If reducing hazard to the public is the real goal. It would make sense to go where you have the greatest impact.

In business it is called utilizing your resources for their highest and best use.

Those driving after drinking at a private residence are still on the street and bound to pass a policeman on the way hom anyway.

Last edited by Jonesee; 12-28-2012 at 17:07..
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Old 12-28-2012, 16:53   #117
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Remember Driving IS a privlidge NOT a right. When you sign your name on the application you ARE agreeing to follow ALL the rules and laws that govern. As for refusing the test.. it's called implied consent (Remember What YOU signed)

Actually where I am from (Florida). You can get a drunk driving charge on a bicycle or on a boat and neither require a license.

You haven't signed or agreed to anything to operate either but the charge still stands as well as the rules of evidence etc.

No implied consent as far as I can see when I climb on a bike. But it happens.

And a drunk on a bike is not a true hazard to the general public.

Last edited by Jonesee; 12-28-2012 at 16:57..
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Old 12-28-2012, 16:58   #118
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Your understanding of how the law should work is sound, but sadly you're misunderstanding how it is being used.
As it currently stands you can stand there stone cold sober with no evidence to the contrary. Your sober refusal to submit to a breathalyzer is being used as the (only) probable cause for them to take you into custody, restrain you, and draw your blood against your will.
Let me get this straight - are you claiming, in other posts, that you were once a police officer? because just this paragraph is enough to know you are either lying or you had no legal training at all.

Here's a hint: if the police were arresting people and getting search warrants on the evidence you claim, we'd know, because the trouble the police and judges would be in would be all over CNN. Louisiana doesn't get to define "probable cause" and, if they do, they have to answer to the federal courts.
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Last edited by Bren; 12-28-2012 at 17:00..
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Old 12-28-2012, 17:02   #119
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Here,( Minnesoota) on a bike, lawn tractor,boat, horse, snowmobile. You don't need a licence for any of them but your DL will be affected by a OWI conviction
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Old 12-28-2012, 17:02   #120
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Remember the schtick of the online community:

- If something is legal, you must support it, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you, or how much you dislike it.

Checkpoints are legal /]

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Old 12-28-2012, 17:03   #121
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I have no problem with a quick sober check, I act decent and get the same in return. If they save 1 childs life by causing a 2 min delay in your schedule...big deal. Lose a loved one to a drunk driver and lets see what you think.
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Old 12-28-2012, 17:06   #122
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Here,( Minnesoota) on a bike, lawn tractor,boat, horse, snowmobile. You don't need a licence for any of them but your DL will be affected by a OWI conviction

I don't understand. Why did you use the rationale that signing your license gives the police the right., then turn right around and say this.

The license really doesn't make a difference does it?
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Old 12-28-2012, 17:06   #123
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I have no problem with a quick sober check, I act decent and get the same in return. If they save 1 childs life by causing a 2 min delay in your schedule...big deal. Lose a loved one to a drunk driver and lets see what you think.
freedom hater!
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Old 12-28-2012, 17:07   #124
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Remember Driving IS a privlidge NOT a right.
This is a late 20th century interpretation of travel.

Are you implying that the founding fathers would have said that travel by means of the day (horses, boats, carriage) would have been a "privilege" and not a "right"? This is teh exact same argument as the govt saying owning a firearm is a "privilege" and not a "right"

We (collectively as a society) have simply accepted the notion that travel by common means of the day is a privilege.
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Old 12-28-2012, 17:09   #125
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Remember Driving IS a privlidge NOT a right. When you sign your name on the application you ARE agreeing to follow ALL the rules and laws that govern. As for refusing the test.. it's called implied consent (Remember What YOU signed)
Let's break down what "implied consent" actually means. You are forced at gunpoint by the gov't to pay for roads through taxation. In order to use the roads you paid for, you are forced by the gov't to sign a waiver of your 5th amendment right to not incriminate yourself against same gov't. So in short, the gov't is forcing you to force yourself to violate your own rights in order to use what you were forced to pay for.

Sounds a lot like racketeering.
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