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Old 12-27-2012, 12:56   #101
RussP
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
All of the above.

I'm not going to stop fighting, but I do not believe we can win. I didn't think Romney was going to win, but it didn't stop me from voting for him, or attempting to convince everyone I kew that they should vote for him too.

I believe Sandy Hook is going to crush us.

I am waiting for the debates to start to start in the House and Senate. We WILL see the anti-gunners bring out the Mothers and Fathers of the lost children of Sandy Hook. This WILL get them the votes they need to pass legislation. Because the constituency will see those people on live, national TV, and they will call their elected representatives screaming for gun-control.
You are waiting...That is what I thought. Sure, it's going to get emotional. It will be overwhelmingly sad. There will be millions of responses to those emotions. And you will have done nothing to offset that with your Representative and Senators. You waited until the other side fired off their emotional salvo.

Nothing you do from the time the hearings start to influence the Warners we now face will be as loud as that salvo. You have to work now to build a solid case for the side fighting for our 2nd Amendment Right. Burn the facts into their minds. Refute the emotional points before the families present them.

I know, you want to pay reparations to the victims families for what a few mentally unstable people did. You feel responsible for what they did.

I do not.
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Old 12-27-2012, 13:00   #102
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No way. It would allow the Seller to get way to far in to the buyers business and allow a hell of a chance for Identity theft.
In Texas you can go to the Police Station and ask them if there is an issue with the sale.
In most places they will run the checks and let you do the deal inside the station.
I did this in College Station when I bought a gun from a Jailer.
Again, Texas is awesome. Too much common sense for most other states.
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Old 12-27-2012, 13:10   #103
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You are waiting...That is what I thought.

I know, you want to pay reparations to the victims families for what a few mentally unstable people did. You feel responsible for what they did.

I do not.
I get you want to be insulting. I expect nothing less at this point.

I'm not a liberal. I do not want to pay the survivors reparitions or any such non-sense like that. I do not feel responsible for what others have done.

I simply look at this situation completely differently than you do.

I have been in this area for long enough to understand the people. I have been in the Oval Office, and not as part of some tour. I have had lunch at the White House in the Senior Dining Room. I did advance work at Bush Sr. campaign rallys in Michigan and in Ohio in 1987.

I know enough about elected officials to be scared by their lack of morals and back-bone. They will do what they think is in their own best interests, what they think will get them re-elected.

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Old 12-27-2012, 13:13   #104
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
I get you want to be insulting. I expect nothing less at this point. Plus, of course, you can get away with it, because you're a mod.

I'm not a liberal. I do not want to pay the survivors reparitions or any such non-sense like that. I do not feel responsible for what others have done.

I simply look at this situation completely differently than you do.

I have been in this area for long enough to understand the people. I have been in the Oval Office, and not as part of some tour. I have had lunch at the White House in the Senior Dining Room. I did advance work for Bush Sr. speaking engagments in Michigan in 1987.

I know enough about elected officials to be scared by their lack of morals and back-bone.
then you know their first job is to get elected and their second job is to get re-elected. that wont happen with many who vote for additional gun rights violations.

their choice is to do whats popular with the media or whats popular with those whose votes keep them in their cushey jobs.
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Old 12-27-2012, 13:23   #105
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then you know their first job is to get elected and their second job is to get re-elected. that wont happen with many who vote for additional gun rights violations.

their choice is to do whats popular with the media or whats popular with those whose votes keep them in their cushey jobs.
I'm sure you're seeing how we view this differently.

YOU think that our elected representatives fear they will not get re-elected if they DO vote for anti-gun legislation.

I think that our elected representatives fear they will not get re-elected if the DON'T vote for anti-gun legislation.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-27-2012 at 13:26..
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Old 12-27-2012, 13:26   #106
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I think you're close to seeing how we view this differently.

YOU think that our elected representatives fear they will not get re-elected if they vote FOR anti-gun legislation.

I think that our elected representatives fear they will not get re-elected if the DON'T vote for anti-gun legislation.
doesnt that depend on their electorate? do you think the reps in the southern states care what voters in california think?
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Old 12-27-2012, 13:28   #107
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doesnt that depend on their electorate? do you think the reps in the southern states care what voters in california think?
Just looking at over-all numbers. I believe that there will be enough votes to pass anti-gun legislation. There will be NRA A+ rated folks that vote FOR the anti-gun legislation. There will be enough traitors to the Constitution, enough votes, to pass it.
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Old 12-27-2012, 13:44   #108
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Just looking at over-all numbers. I believe that there will be enough votes to pass anti-gun legislation. There will be NRA A+ rated folks that vote FOR the anti-gun legislation. There will be enough traitors to the Constitution, enough votes, to pass it.
when these so called pro gun rights reps here more from the media than they do from their voters this is what happens.

when the democrats lost the house after voting for the last AWB was it because of their vote for the ban or something else? clinton thought it was because they voted for the ban.

reps need to be reminded of this.
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Old 12-27-2012, 13:51   #109
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when these so called pro gun rights reps here more from the media than they do from their voters this is what happens.

when the democrats lost the house after voting for the last AWB was it because of their vote for the ban or something else? clinton thought it was because they voted for the ban.

reps need to be reminded of this.
General attitude is that voting for the 1994 AWB cost the Dems the House & Senate. But you are looking towards the past (1993) and trying to use that example to see the future (20 years later in 2013).

The country has changed. Public attitudes have changed. How much I cannot say, but I believe it is enough that the anti-gunners do not fear a repeat 1994, of mass seat-loss in the House & Senate.

I believe the elected representatives fear the opposite, that they will get removed from office if they do not vote for the coming anti-gun legislation.

It is also important to note, that back when the original AWB passed in 1993, firearms like the AR15 and AK47 were not being used in high-publicity mass shootings like they have been recently.

If anti-gun legislation, (supposedly) focused on "Assault Weapons", could be passed back in 1993 when ARs & AKs were NOT being used in such shootings as they are today, why do we think another AWB of some sort cannot be passed now that they are? How about how much worse the media bias and reporting is now, versus 1993?

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Old 12-27-2012, 14:13   #110
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And if closing the loop-hole stops further anti-2A/anti-gun legislation?
It won't, they'll just move on to some other issue they find is "important"
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Old 12-27-2012, 14:28   #111
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It won't, they'll just move on to some other issue they find is "important"
Which would actually be a good thing. And what has been my point since forever.
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Old 12-27-2012, 14:49   #112
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I get you want to be insulting. I expect nothing less at this point.

I'm not a liberal. I do not want to pay the survivors reparitions or any such non-sense like that. I do not feel responsible for what others have done.

I simply look at this situation completely differently than you do.
Just my observations based on your comments.

Never said you are a liberal.

Your offer to compromise is the reparation (not reparition). You do not see it? You are giving away something of extreme value to satiate and quieten those screaming for gun bans, restrictions and regulations and their supporters. Okay, lets not call it a reparation. Lets call it a plea bargain. You'll admit to a lesser crime and accept that penalty in exchange for no other penalties being levied. How's that?

Well, one person committed each of the crimes. I will accept neither the responsibility nor punishment for an act for which I was not responsible.

You say you do not feel responsible, yet you are more than willing to give up a component of YOUR 2nd Amendment Right because someone else violated several laws.

Yes, we do not see things the same.
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I have been in this area for long enough to understand the people. I have been in the Oval Office, and not as part of some tour. I have had lunch at the White House in the Senior Dining Room. I did advance work at Bush Sr. campaign rallys in Michigan and in Ohio in 1987.
In what capacity were you in the Oval Office and at lunch?

What is advance work?
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I know enough about elected officials to be scared by their lack of morals and back-bone. They will do what they think is in their own best interests, what they think will get them re-elected.
Okay, you know nothing about the politics up there in NoVA, yet you understand enough about politicians to know they will do whatever is necessary to get reelected.

On that last part we agree.

It is also why you, me, everyone needs to apply more rock hard pressure on those elected officials NOW. Remind them of their Oath of Office every day.

Or, just wait until the testimony begins...
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Old 12-27-2012, 15:10   #113
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
I get you want to be insulting. I expect nothing less at this point.

I'm not a liberal. I do not want to pay the survivors reparitions or any such non-sense like that. I do not feel responsible for what others have done.

I simply look at this situation completely differently than you do.

I have been in this area for long enough to understand the people. I have been in the Oval Office, and not as part of some tour. I have had lunch at the White House in the Senior Dining Room. I did advance work at Bush Sr. campaign rallys in Michigan and in Ohio in 1987.

I know enough about elected officials to be scared by their lack of morals and back-bone. They will do what they think is in their own best interests, what they think will get them re-elected.
I see I kind of got an answer to my question from page 2. So you did advance on a presidential 25 years ago and had lunch at the WH.

What particular topic are you well versed in again?
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Old 12-27-2012, 15:31   #114
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I see I kind of got an answer to my question from page 2. So you did advance on a presidential 25 years ago and had lunch at the WH.

What particular topic are you well versed in again?
Discussing the Gun Show Loop Hole....especially with Russ.
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Old 12-27-2012, 15:32   #115
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Just my observations based on your comments.

Never said you are a liberal.

Your offer to compromise is the reparation (not reparition). You do not see it? You are giving away something of extreme value to satiate and quieten those screaming for gun bans, restrictions and regulations and their supporters. Okay, lets not call it a reparation. Lets call it a plea bargain. You'll admit to a lesser crime and accept that penalty in exchange for no other penalties being levied. How's that?

Well, one person committed each of the crimes. I will accept neither the responsibility nor punishment for an act for which I was not responsible.

You say you do not feel responsible, yet you are more than willing to give up a component of YOUR 2nd Amendment Right because someone else violated several laws.

Yes, we do not see things the same.In what capacity were you in the Oval Office and at lunch?

What is advance work?Okay, you know nothing about the politics up there in NoVA, yet you understand enough about politicians to know they will do whatever is necessary to get reelected.

On that last part we agree.

It is also why you, me, everyone needs to apply more rock hard pressure on those elected officials NOW. Remind them of their Oath of Office every day.

Or, just wait until the testimony begins...
I get it.

You still think we can win.

Good luck with that.

See ya in a few months.
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Old 12-27-2012, 15:44   #116
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For them to win, you have to quit.

If you say a Big Ol' F. U. to gun control, who is going to be there to stop you? Are they going to line up Leftists to go door to door to gather up your guns?

I live in Texas, our Governor carries a damn gun when he goes jogging. Now who is going to convince him he needs to toe the line because Diane Feinstien put up some legislation?

Look here is the way to fix it.

Demand that those who hate your guns come and take them. Don't send the poor local Cops or the Fed's or some poor Spc Four from Idaho who was pulled from Afghanistan for this. Lets get some Birkenstock wear Patchouli smelling liberal hippies to go door to door with David Gregory in the lead.

They can show up in any neighborhood in Texas and demand that those legal gun owners turn over their property, well because,..ummmm it offends their sensibilities.

See how easy that works?

Hell I will even donate blood!

Last edited by Averageman; 12-27-2012 at 15:45..
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Old 12-27-2012, 15:55   #117
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Discussing the Gun Show Loop Hole....especially with Russ.
No, we are not discussing your perceived 'Gun Show Loop Hole'. You began with conceding to the antis the condition that any firearm buyer at a gun show be subjected to a mandatory NICS background check regardless of whether it is an FFL seller or a non-FFL seller. You believe giving that away to the antis will cause them to drop all other requests for bans, restrictions and regulations.

I and many others pointed out the fallacies in your plan. The main fallacy being as evidenced by Feinstein's now published plan, they are aski...no, demanding everything from before plus some.

A discussion of the non-existent gun show loop hole would include BATFE definitions and regulations, collectors selling privately owned firearms, stuff like that.

That isn't the topic.
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Old 12-27-2012, 16:01   #118
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No, we are not discussing your perceived 'Gun Show Loop Hole'. You began with conceding to the antis the condition that any firearm buyer at a gun show be subjected to a mandatory NICS background check regardless of whether it is an FFL seller or a non-FFL seller. You believe giving that away to the antis will cause them to drop all other requests for bans, restrictions and regulations.

I and many others pointed out the fallacies in your plan. The main fallacy being as evidenced by Feinstein's now published plan, they are aski...no, demanding everything from before plus some.

A discussion of the non-existent gun show loop hole would include BATFE definitions and regulations, collectors selling privately owned firearms, stuff like that.

That isn't the topic.
You don't know what 2bgop and I are talking about. It's different from what you and I are talking about. It's also different from what the general topic of this thread is about.

I'm sure you understand that this sort of thing happens here on GT.
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Old 12-27-2012, 16:03   #119
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I get it.

You still think we can win.

Good luck with that.

See ya in a few months.
You really do not understand the importance of standing firm and strong against the anti-gun crowd, fighting them all the way, do you?
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Old 12-27-2012, 16:05   #120
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For them to win, you have to quit.

If you say a Big Ol' F. U. to gun control, who is going to be there to stop you? Are they going to line up Leftists to go door to door to gather up your guns?

I live in Texas, our Governor carries a damn gun when he goes jogging. Now who is going to convince him he needs to toe the line because Diane Feinstien put up some legislation?

Look here is the way to fix it.

Demand that those who hate your guns come and take them. Don't send the poor local Cops or the Fed's or some poor Spc Four from Idaho who was pulled from Afghanistan for this. Lets get some Birkenstock wear Patchouli smelling liberal hippies to go door to door with David Gregory in the lead.

They can show up in any neighborhood in Texas and demand that those legal gun owners turn over their property, well because,..ummmm it offends their sensibilities.

See how easy that works?

Hell I will even donate blood!
So you think we should threaten folks with death should they attempt to enforce anti-gun legislation.

Well, now this thread has taken a whole new tack.
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Old 12-27-2012, 16:11   #121
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You really do not understand the importance of standing firm and strong against the anti-gun crowd, fighting them all the way, do you?
You really think that we can actually win? You believe we should concede nothing, and go ahead and lose much, much more, do you?

You're willing to let the 2A get absolutely creamed, instead of taking the route of some sort of much less damaging concession?

Please, do that with your 2A, not mine. I'd rather take a small hit, than a massive crushing of our rights.

See how our basic perspectives are worlds about?

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-27-2012 at 16:12..
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Old 12-27-2012, 16:13   #122
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What particular topic are you well versed in again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Discussing the Gun Show Loop Hole....especially with Russ.
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
You don't know what 2bgop and I are talking about.
Then why say the topic is "Discussing the Gun Show Loop Hole....especially with Russ."
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Last edited by RussP; 12-27-2012 at 16:18..
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Old 12-27-2012, 16:16   #123
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Then why say the topic is "Discussing the Gun Show Loop Hole....especially with Russ."
Because that is what I was referring to.

Savvy?
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Old 12-27-2012, 16:50   #124
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You really think that we can actually win? You believe we should concede nothing, and go ahead and lose much, much more, do you?
Yes, and no. Obviously you missed this post:
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Who in this thread said that there will be no compromise? Quote who said there will be no compromise. Of course there will be.

What I and others said is that we should not and we can not afford to go into negotiations carrying a cornucopia of compromise and gift it to the other side.

These are extremely high stakes negotiations, way above your pay grade. You do not begin by divulging your game plan. You do not make the first sacrifice. The blood spilled will only draw more predators.

Yes, there will be compromise. That is why it will be ultra-critical that the negotiation team that will build the plan is the very best, the strongest, the most experienced available. It should contain no one who brings automatic capitulation to the table.

Sheesh, did you really believe we thought there would be no compromises? Where the hell did you get that from? Don't answer, that was rhetorical...
Did you?
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You're willing to let the 2A get absolutely creamed, instead of taking the route of some sort of much less damaging concession?

Please, do that with your 2A, not mine. I'd rather take a small hit, than a massive crushing of our rights.

See how our basic perspectives are worlds about?
The difference between your world and our world is reality. You believe those seeking control of all firearms will accept your token offer and go away. That is not what will happen.

Feinstein will submit her package. Pro 2nd Amendment individuals and groups will reject every point. Then talks will begin in committee. We will have to keep rejecting every anti proposal with irrefutable facts about how nothing in the proposal will impact gun violence. They will counter with emotion riddled rhetoric.

Compromise will not, should not enter the discussion for several days. Might the NICS requirement be an early casualty? Who knows? But, I would not offer it up Day 1.
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Old 12-27-2012, 16:52   #125
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Because that is what I was referring to.

Savvy?
Obviously another difference in the world you live in.
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