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Old 12-26-2012, 20:41   #1
wprebeck
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Less lethal ammo trouble

At least, I think I've narrowed it down to this as the culprit.

As most of you folks know, I'm the armorer here. I've had reports of, and personally witnessed, problems feeding shotgun ammo into the magazine tube. I got to thinking about it tonight, after receiving yet another complaint about a gun which works flawlessly upon inspection.

The issue with feeding in the tube happens only with "Super Sock" less lethal ammo (from CTS). We run these guns during qualification, with no issue on using slug or buckshot. The crap we have to use for quals now is the "enviro-safe, green" crap that patterns like a blind guy throwing a mud pie at a wall at anything beyond 15 yards.

Anyway, it loads fine. When we gear up for outside events, such as a funeral escort or such, hot ammo is also used (Federal slug and buck). Loads fine - never a report of a malfunction.

When I conduct my quarterly inspections, the dummy rounds provided by Remington work fine. The latest gun I worked on tonight cycled three complete mag tubes full without issue. Yet, I've seen the gun not load after putting in four rounds of the Super Sock less lethal.

And no, it's not mag springs. They're all the new extended ones, just replaced every single one last year.

If anyone has heard anything, or experienced similar results using this ammo, let me know. We have over 70 rounds of the stuff, and it's our "go-to" load for a problem inmate. If I determine that it's causing feed/load issues, we won't HAVE any ammo - I refuse to allow stuff like that in my guns, especially when I'm in a stack prepping to make entry, and rely on that gun. Of course, that'll make command staff's eye bug out; means replacing the entire stock of less lethal ammo.

Yay.



Of course, I just took shotgun #4 out of service tonight. This one had a BIG dent on the hammer, creating not only a dent on the hammer face, but a burr on the side of it, as well. That, and the magazine detent ball on the barrel ring was pushing through the ring. Not good, either. Maybe they'll eventually give me money to buy parts. At least one of those shotguns has been out of service for over a year.
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Old 12-26-2012, 21:48   #2
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So are the super socks failing to feed onto the lifter from the magazine, or failing to feed from the lifter into the chamber?

How long is the loaded super sock shell?

I have heard the 870's are not fond of short shells like the Aguila mini shells, and have to have the lifter modified. If they are not on the shorter in OAL, then look at the rim. Perhaps use a marker and cover the brass

My other suggestion is to get a set of calipers, and measure all of the external dimensions to your less lethal shells, and then compare the measurements to some of your other shells.

(Why not ditch the less lethal, and stick with buck and/or slugs as God intended it?)
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Old 12-26-2012, 22:14   #3
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So are the super socks failing to feed onto the lifter from the magazine, or failing to feed from the lifter into the chamber?

How long is the loaded super sock shell?

I have heard the 870's are not fond of short shells like the Aguila mini shells, and have to have the lifter modified. If they are not on the shorter in OAL, then look at the rim. Perhaps use a marker and cover the brass

My other suggestion is to get a set of calipers, and measure all of the external dimensions to your less lethal shells, and then compare the measurements to some of your other shells.

(Why not ditch the less lethal, and stick with buck and/or slugs as God intended it?)
Because courts frown on using that stuff just to subdue someone ....although, I see your point.
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Old 12-26-2012, 22:38   #4
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It seems like an "accident" waiting to happen with the training to use it in both roles, and providing the ammo too... maybe you don't have some of the coworkers I have though.
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Old 12-26-2012, 23:16   #5
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You have no idea. When I first took over the armory four years ago
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Old 12-26-2012, 23:40   #6
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Never had a problem like you describe, but our policy prohibits us from loading less lethal into any of our regular service shotguns. Our less lethal only goes into our old Ithaca Model 37s with bright green furniture. The Model 37's don't have a floorplate so we don't have the same type of issues that can happen with a Remington 870. Even without the loading issues, I would suggest setting aside a less lethal weapon and putting distinctive markings on it.
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Old 12-27-2012, 00:28   #7
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Never had a problem like you describe, but our policy prohibits us from loading less lethal into any of our regular service shotguns. Our less lethal only goes into our old Ithaca Model 37s with bright green furniture. The Model 37's don't have a floorplate so we don't have the same type of issues that can happen with a Remington 870. Even without the loading issues, I would suggest setting aside a less lethal weapon and putting distinctive markings on it.
I have, they (command) won't let me.

Regarding the malfunction - its not a feed issue. Its a loading issue, which is odd. I can load tube after tube of dummy rounds without problem. But, I have seen (and had reported to me) multiple issues of physically loading more than 4 rounds of the Super Sock in a tube.

I'm thinking its a weight issue. I'm going to bring in my calipers and scale to measure the rounds, and compare them to loaded and dummy ammo. Ill post back, and maybe we can figure this one out. In the meantime, if anyone has heard of this issue with this ammo, let me know.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:08   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAR View Post
Never had a problem like you describe, but our policy prohibits us from loading less lethal into any of our regular service shotguns. Our less lethal only goes into our old Ithaca Model 37s with bright green furniture. The Model 37's don't have a floorplate so we don't have the same type of issues that can happen with a Remington 870. Even without the loading issues, I would suggest setting aside a less lethal weapon and putting distinctive markings on it.
That's a good idea. I know someone who mistakenly shot someone with buckshot when he thought he had less lethal ammo loaded. The only thing that saved him was the fact the perp was pointing a .357 at him when he did it (it was actually a pretty funny story when he told it).
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:13   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
I have, they (command) won't let me.

Regarding the malfunction - its not a feed issue. Its a loading issue, which is odd. I can load tube after tube of dummy rounds without problem. But, I have seen (and had reported to me) multiple issues of physically loading more than 4 rounds of the Super Sock in a tube.

I'm thinking its a weight issue. I'm going to bring in my calipers and scale to measure the rounds, and compare them to loaded and dummy ammo. Ill post back, and maybe we can figure this one out. In the meantime, if anyone has heard of this issue with this ammo, let me know.
Or suggest just only using the 37mm/40mm systems for less-lethal, and shotguns for lethal only.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:50   #10
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What are those?



Seriously, I know what they are - we just don't have any. Actually, that's not entirely true. We allegedly have a single shot 37mm, but no one knows where it is, nor do we have any munitions for it.
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Old 12-27-2012, 13:57   #11
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What are those?



Seriously, I know what they are - we just don't have any. Actually, that's not entirely true. We allegedly have a single shot 37mm, but no one knows where it is, nor do we have any munitions for it.
We use something like this.

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Old 12-28-2012, 07:38   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
What are those?



Seriously, I know what they are - we just don't have any. Actually, that's not entirely true. We allegedly have a single shot 37mm, but no one knows where it is, nor do we have any munitions for it.
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We use something like this.

Cop Talk
We have those and these:

http://www.chiefsupply.com/762-Defen...Bore-37mm.aspx

I think we do actually have less-lethal shotgun rounds as well, but I don't think we've ever brought them out. Only DCT, lieutenants, and lockshop (who are also our armorers) are trained on them, though.
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