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Old 12-26-2012, 09:18   #1
Kegs
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20 year military vet farmer needs your help!

This friend of ours is retired from the military, but he's not retired from defending the constitution and he's not retired from making the U.S. a better place.

Please help him if you can!

Mark has a family farm in Michigan and is currently embattled in a legal fight with the state of Michigan DNR who came out last year and claimed pigs of certain types (the same types raised on farms in many cases), even if in captivity and being raised for meat are "feral".

If you don't know about this situation yet, I'll explain it in a nutshell: The government is trying to control our right to produce food for ourselves.

Mark doesn't think this is a good idea and neither do I.

If I were rich, I'd hire an attorney to spin the DNR on its head, but I can't because I'm not. I know there are people on this forum though that are of the right mindset and finance who can help support our right to farm.

Please have a look at his video and if you can, help out!

I am in no way affiliated with my friend's farm. I just recognize the kind of uphill battle he is fighting, believe it is just and if spreading the word is all I can do to help, that's what I'll do.

His video pretty much explains most of what is going on is right here:


Thanks for your consideration,
Kegs
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:50   #2
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i was interested untill he started talking about soviet blockades and blah blah blah.

shooting and eating a feral hog is one thing, trying to process and sell hogs thru slaughterhouses is another..feral pigs are known to have alot more diseases then domestic pigs..around NC we are usualy taught about Pseudorabies
and how they can infect domestic pigs,horses,cows, even cats and dogs

and Swine brucellosis that can spread to humans

im glad the processing plant refused his bussiness..i wouldnt want feral hogs that have never had any antibiotic shots being slaughterd in the same place as the pork i buy..


i feel bad for the guy but peoples health is more important then his bank account.

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Old 12-26-2012, 10:04   #3
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I agree with Lunarspeak but , Corps like "MONSANTO" and the Gov. got to step out of the picture and let farmers be farmers again ! I don't even know what I'm eating anymore ! Everything is "Franken Food" and other than losing $$$$ , these people don't care anything about the farmers or us !

When I buy veggies at the store and can not get the seed to reproduce , what's wrong with that picture ?

If things were on the up -n- up , you'd see a "Skull and Cross-Bones" Icon on most of the stuff we eat !
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:06   #4
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I don't see the outrage.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:09   #5
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But are they feral hogs? Are they just being classified as feral, kinda like our AR15 being classified as assault weapons.

If the .gov had a case they wouldnt use the age old tactic of stalling and pushing back court dates until the small guy goes broke.
I have a friend who farms beef, a small operation and he wonders why its worth it with all the cost and regulation.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:23   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-online View Post
But are they feral hogs? Are they just being classified as feral, kinda like our AR15 being classified as assault weapons.

If the .gov had a case they wouldnt use the age old tactic of stalling and pushing back court dates until the small guy goes broke.
I have a friend who farms beef, a small operation and he wonders why its worth it with all the cost and regulation.
really..you had to brig assault rifles into a thread about feral hogs?

and if it was your family that got sick from tainted meat you would know the cost was worth it.

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/sour...ered-go/nGtb2/

i ate here at the above restaurant before this happend
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:29   #7
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I don't see the outrage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irZelZxvElI
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:25   #8
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The guy seems to have a lot of issues going on. Does he belong to the Michigan Militia? I get the feeling he is on some government lists.


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Old 12-26-2012, 12:16   #9
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Quote:
If you don't know about this situation yet, I'll explain it in a nutshell: The government is trying to control our right to produce food for ourselves.

Kegs,
While I disagree with the above quote, just because you asked I donated $50 via paypal just now. Hopefully he can use it for a couple days of feed. He seems like a good man in a bind. And I would support farmers and hobby farmers rights and hope they don't go broke. I would agree that they should be allowed to be slaughtered at a processor. I don't see the harm and it would be a win/win situation. He should get rid of all of his pigs and raise domestic pigs if feasible.

That being said, I disagree because is really a simple matter of the DNR keeping Russian boar out of Michigan. In the court documents it said he admitted to having 3 russian boars (which I assume he has disposed of, right?) in adition to the Mangalitsas. Once this happened I don't think the DNR under the Invasive Species Order had much of a choice in the matter.If he had a time machine, I'm sure it would be better to have gone back and breed domestic hogs. Can the Mangalitsas be clear of the ISO definition as feral? I doubt it and it doesn't seem to be much of a conspiracy rather than agricultural prudence.
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Old 12-26-2012, 14:07   #10
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while im not trying to judge the guy im starting to wonder if he got into this situation by trying to cut costs....im wondering if instead of buying domestic pigs, all he did was capture feral hogs whitch cost him little if not nothing.

and if he cant afford feed then im guessing he cant afford a vet or even the medicines or antbiotics that most farms have.
not meat i would eat or even want being processed thru the same equipment "safe" meat was

this guy needs to do something else...even if he decided to raise safe swine,he would spend 10's of thousands just to do a propper clean up of his farm..he would have to dissinfect all his equipment etc etc etc. move all his outside pens..all the people on the farm would need new footwear and work gloves....just a huge amount of work and money.
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Old 12-26-2012, 15:39   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunarspeak View Post
this guy needs to do something else...
That's for sure, rather than "trying to fight the government".
Feral hog prevention overrides the alleged infringement on rights to raise hogs he has chosen in the past.
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Old 12-26-2012, 16:12   #12
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I probably took for granted what I know about this situation. The mention of companies like "Monsanto" is on the right track. The DNR based their directive on the concept that an animal is "feral" based on phenotype. This concept is not logical. The definition of Feral is based wholly on incaptivity, not based on a description or appearance! Some of us wonder if the larger purpose of this directive has nothing to do with invasive species problems or agricultural losses (wild hogs are not a serious problem here in Michigan), but to bring the GMO piggies to market. There is more to this, I'm sure. Hopefully, we'll find out in the process. I think some of you all have a good suspicion of what's going on here. I'll give you my opinion; it's got nothing to do with biological health or diseases of animals...I think Mark is doing us a favor by questioning authority when decisions are made by that authority, are not based on logic.
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Old 12-26-2012, 16:33   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
I(wild hogs are not a serious problem here in Michigan)
They will be. Give it a few years. There are already a few breeding populations spread throughout the state. That is yet one more non-native pest that I don't want to see destroy the eco-system.
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Old 12-26-2012, 16:54   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunarspeak View Post
while im not trying to judge the guy im starting to wonder if he got into this situation by trying to cut costs....im wondering if instead of buying domestic pigs, all he did was capture feral hogs whitch cost him little if not nothing.
.

Exactly the opposite, these were being bred into high quality hogs for high quality specialty markets as I understand it. Again, these are not feral hogs running loose in the wild, these are breeds that are traded on the private market.

Quote:
and if he cant afford feed then im guessing he cant afford a vet or even the medicines or antbiotics that most farms have.
not meat i would eat or even want being processed thru the same equipment "safe" meat was

this guy needs to do something else...even if he decided to raise safe swine,he would spend 10's of thousands just to do a propper clean up of his farm..he would have to dissinfect all his equipment etc etc etc. move all his outside pens..all the people on the farm would need new footwear and work gloves....just a huge amount of work and money.

It's a tough market to be in when the government interferes with it based on ?
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Old 12-26-2012, 17:00   #15
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They will be. Give it a few years. There are already a few breeding populations spread throughout the state. That is yet one more non-native pest that I don't want to see destroy the eco-system.
Yeah, we'll the DNR says their already a major problem, yet nobody I've ever talked to has seen one, and if they have, miraculously, none are found. I work in the wild for a living. I travel all over the state. I've seen bears, I've seen bobcats, I've seen Coyotes, but wild swine? Elusive as cougars. I haven't seen a single one & no one I've talked to has seen one either.
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Old 12-26-2012, 17:03   #16
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I suspect the DNR has labeled his Mangalitsas as invasive species and they have every right to do so. Not only that, there is probably some thought that the Russian boars he admitted to having could have cross bred. If he wants to raise sus scrofa rather than sus domestica, he really doesn't have a legal basis to argue that.

Granted, it would be nice if he had a legal way to take his pigs to the market, but rules are rules.

I feel sorry for the hole he dug, but it is not a goverrnment conspiracy, but an attempt to prevent widespread damage to the agricultural and wildlife habitat of Michigan in the future.

The DNR does have authority to enforce these matters very similar the the prevention of CWD in the deer population.



http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7...,00.html#print


"Feral Swine in Michigan - A Growing Problem

Like other Midwestern states, Michigan is experiencing a growing problem with feral or wild swine. Thirty years ago, there were no feral swine sightings reported in Michigan. By the end of 2011, more than 340 feral swine had been spotted in 72 of Michigan's 83 counties, and 286 have been reported killed. A sow can have two litters a year of four to six piglets. Based on their prolific breeding practices, it is estimated that feral swine in Michigan currently could number between 1,000 and 3,000.

History

Wild pigs or Eurasian boars (Sus scrofa) are not native to the United States. They were first introduced to the United States in 1539 by Spanish explorer Hernando DeSoto, who brought hogs to southwest Florida. Nearly 500 years later, the U.S. Department of Agriculture estimates there are at least 4 million feral swine nationwide causing hundreds of millions of dollars in damage each year to farms, residential areas, forests and the environment.

Feral swine in Michigan are a combination of Eurasian boars and escaped or neglected domestic pigs. Depending on ancestral lineage and cross-breeding among breeds, feral swine vary in appearance. Typical fur coloration for true Eurasian boar can be grey to dark brown to black, while domestic breeds can display a wider variety of colors with many defining patterns of striping or spots. Several generations of cross-breeding between domestic and Eurasian lineages can make the physical appearance of these animals drastically different within the same family unit. As with coloration, the size of mature adults can vary greatly depending on the bloodlines. In Michigan, adults typically range in size from 100-200 pounds, but larger specimens do occur.

Why Are Feral Swine a Problem?

Feral swine are a problem for two main reasons - they can host many parasites and diseases that threaten humans, domestic livestock and wildlife; and they can cause extensive damage to forests, agricultural lands and Michigan's water resources.

Feral swine have been known to carry several diseases and parasites, including hog cholera (classic swine fever), pseudorabies, brucellosis, tuberculosis, salmonellosis, anthrax, ticks, fleas, lice and various worms. Feral swine are highly mobile, making it easy for them to spread disease quickly in Michigan's wildlife and domestic livestock populations.

Feral swine carry several diseases that can infect humans including brucellosis, balantidiasis, leptospirosis, salmonellosis, toxoplasmosis, trichinosis, trichostrongylosis, sarcoptic mange, tuberculosis, tularemia, anthrax, rabies and plague.

Feral swine also are dangerous when cornered or threatened. They can become aggressive and charge and attack humans. They move with great speed and can cause serious injuries with their tusks.

Swine also compete for natural foods with wildlife, such as turkeys, deer and small game. Acorns are a preferred food for feral swine, just as they are for Michigan's native white-tailed deer population. Feral swine will eat almost anything, including dead animals and many forms of vegetation and tree seedlings. When there is a shortage of natural foods for them to consume, feral swine will forage on most agricultural crops and livestock feed. Feral swine will also eat small ground-nesting mammals and birds. And using their acute sense of smell, feral swine will find and eat young domestic livestock and poultry.

Feral swine also routinely engage in two types of behavior that are damaging to soils, crops and water - rooting and wallowing. Their rooting behavior, during which they dig for food below the soil surface, causes erosion, damages lawns and farm lands, and weakens plants and native vegetation. Wallowing behavior, during which feral swine seek out areas of shallow water to roll in mud, destroys small ponds and stream banks, which impacts water quality.

What is the Michigan DNR Doing About Feral Swine?

The DNR has declared Sus scrofa, one species of swine, an invasive species in Michigan. As such, possession of this species of swine is now prohibited in Michigan. This was a move by the Michigan DNR to join other states in the battle against feral swine, as well as to align with the National Invasive Species Laboratory's stance on feral swine. Hunting and breeding facilities in possession of Sus scrofa after April 1, 2012, will face legal action by the state. See more information on the order listing feral swine as an invasive species.

Active trapping of feral swine is being done throughout the state in cooperation with USDA-Wildlife Services and the Michigan Department of Agriculture. Any person who believes there might be feral swine on his/her property and would like to inquire about borrowing a trap should contact Nate Newman at USDA-Wildlife Services at 517-336-1928.

The DNR is an active member of the inter-agency Feral Swine Working Group formed by the Michigan Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. The working group is currently working on a feral swine control and eradication plan for Michigan.

What can you do?

Under Michigan law, any hunter with any valid Michigan hunting license can shoot feral swine on sight while hunting. Private property owners also may shoot any feral swine on their property and do not need to be in possession of a hunting license. If a hunter harvests a swine, he or she is encouraged to provide samples for disease testing by contacting USDA-Wildlife Services at 517-336-1928. Learn more about the rules for hunting or shooting feral swine in Michigan.

Report any sightings or harvesting of feral swine to Nate Newman at the USDA Wildlife Services Office in East Lansing at 517-336-1928. Sightings, kills and damages can also be reported using this online form."


Separately, http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dn...L_371200_7.pdf

"
On August 8, 2011 the MDNR issued Invasive Species Order Amendment No. 1 of 2011
(ISO), which provides that effective October 8, 2011, the Invasive Species Order is amended to
read as follows:
“By authority conferred on the Department of Natural Resources by section 41302 of the Natural
Resources Environmental Protection Act, 1994 PA 451, as amended, MCL 324.41302, and Executive
Orders 2009-45, 2009-54, 2011-1, and 2011-2, and in consultation with the Department of Agriculture,
it is ordered that effective October 8, 2011 the following section(s) of the Invasive Species Order shall
be amended as follows:
40.4 Additional prohibited species.
(1) Possession of the following live species, including a hybrid or genetic variant of the species, an
egg or offspring of the species or of a hybrid or genetically engineered variant, is prohibited:
(a) New Zealand mud snail (potamopyrgus antipodarum).
(b) Wild boar, wild hog, wild swine, feral pig, feral hog, feral swine, Old world swine, razorback,
eurasian wild boar, Russian wild boar (Sus scrofa Linnaeus). This subsection does not and is not
intended to affect sus domestica involved in domestic hog production.
(c) The department shall consult with staff from the Michigan department of agriculture on the
development of a phased compliance protocol for the implementation of this section.”
Invasive Species Order Amendment No. 1 of 2011 took effect on October 8, 2011.
The MDNR has reiterated that under its phased compliance protocol, it will defer
determinations of compliance with the prohibition added by Invasive Species Order
Amendment No. 1 of 2010 and Invasive Species Order Amendment No. 1 of 2011 until
after March 31, 2012. "
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Old 12-26-2012, 22:02   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
Yeah, we'll the DNR says their already a major problem, yet nobody I've ever talked to has seen one, and if they have, miraculously, none are found. I work in the wild for a living. I travel all over the state. I've seen bears, I've seen bobcats, I've seen Coyotes, but wild swine? Elusive as cougars. I haven't seen a single one & no one I've talked to has seen one either.
Check the Michigan hunting forums. People have been seeing them north of Midland and a few places in the thumb. And someplace on the west side. There has been kills too.
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:52   #18
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But are they feral hogs? Are they just being classified as feral, kinda like our AR15 being classified as assault weapons.

If the .gov had a case they wouldnt use the age old tactic of stalling and pushing back court dates until the small guy goes broke.
I have a friend who farms beef, a small operation and he wonders why its worth it with all the cost and regulation.

Funny, because your comment is exactly spot on.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:16   #19
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Check the Michigan hunting forums. People have been seeing them north of Midland and a few places in the thumb. And someplace on the west side. There has been kills too.
A few killed piggies that escaped from a local pen is not "widespread damage" which is what the DNR is claiming. This is not a problem such as in TX or HI where pigs are rampaging everything everywhere.

This entire issue has nothing to do with controlling the wild pigs. That's the way the state of Michigan is selling it, but the purpose is far different than their sales pitch.

If this suit continues forward and we are allowed to see the workings of the government, I assure you people will not be pleased - this is why the judge has issued the gag order on the case and why its not being broadcast by news agencies.

I am really hoping the truth of this matter comes out so that everyone can see yet another attempt by our glorious leadership toward the fleecing of the people.

The Michigan DNR can call anything it wants "feral" and "invasive" apparently - whats next? Huskies? Cats? All people of non-indigenous race?

Seriously, the DNR has overextended its authority on this matter by issuing a directive that is not logically based and uses the term "feral" incorrectly.

At the same time period, Monsanto comes out with a genetically modified pig...hmmm, wonder if it could be a coincidence?

Look, I don't know all the info on this situation. One thing I do know however is that these DNR directives on non-baiting and kill all your swine, etc. are destructive on our economy and do not protect nor conserve the natural resources.

If the DNR writes a directive, it should be penalizing those farmers who fail to secure their fences properly, not penalizing the whole for something an individual or two did. This is ludicrous.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:39   #20
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I suspect the DNR has labeled his Mangalitsas as invasive species and they have every right to do so.
SO a Mangalista is an invasive species, but another species of the same genus of the same pig is not, yet it is not indigenous and if it is let loose will exhibit the exact same behavior. How is that logical exactly?

Quote:
Not only that, there is probably some thought that the Russian boars he admitted to having could have cross bred. If he wants to raise sus scrofa rather than sus domestica, he really doesn't have a legal basis to argue that.
I would say that legal basis is the right to farm - this is a gray area actually if you think about it.

Quote:
Granted, it would be nice if he had a legal way to take his pigs to the market, but rules are rules.
but poor rules should be reconsidered, do you not agree?

Quote:
I feel sorry for the hole he dug, but it is not a goverrnment conspiracy, but an attempt to prevent widespread damage to the agricultural and wildlife habitat of Michigan in the future.

The DNR does have authority to enforce these matters very similar the the prevention of CWD in the deer population.
The baiting ban did nothing to prevent any deer diseases. This was yet another order that was destructive to our economy that was based on poor logic. It is lifted now finally, but lifting it does not bring the economy back.

Can you imagine how you would have felt if you owned and operated a small feed business and stocked up on 100 yards of potatoes, beets and carrots and then the DNR came out with an order that baiting was outlawed?

This actually happened.

I cut all of the DNR rhetoric out of your post - which is exactly what it is. They obviously used this rhetoric to cover up their real intent - which remains to come to full light at this point.

I hope somehow this case miraculously continues and is ruled on because it appears Mark's case has more merit than meets the eye.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:49   #21
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Look, I don't know all the info on this situation. One thing I do know however is that these DNR directives on non-baiting and kill all your swine, etc. are destructive on our economy and do not protect nor conserve the natural resources.

The bait ban? You think that's a bad idea? I take it you have never hunted in the NE corner of the Lower Pen. The numbers they were published of deer with TB are VERY low compared to what happened.

While I feel bad that the farmers lost revenue due to not being able to sell truckloads of bait, it was the best thing for the deer herd. And long term for the cattle/pork industry here.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:59   #22
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The baiting ban did nothing to prevent any deer diseases. This was yet another order that was destructive to our economy that was based on poor logic. It is lifted now finally, but lifting it does not bring the economy back.
Wow. Talk about head in the sand. The bait bad has helped. The animals don't go nose to nose in the mass numbers they used to. Back in the mid 90s when TB was just starting to hit hard. You could see 50+ deer on a bait pile. Tell me that doesn't help spread a disease that is spread by nose to nose contact.

I started out hating the bait ban. And years later I hope they never allow baiting again.

And yes, the farmers took a hit. It really sucked. But just think how much you would be screaming if a few cattle ranches or pig farms had to destroy their entire herd due to TB. Then disinfecting everything.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:00   #23
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... SO a Mangalista is an invasive species,

... but poor rules should be reconsidered, do you not agree?

... I hope somehow this case miraculously continues and is ruled on because it appears Mark's case has more merit than meets the eye.
I think pure Mangalistas are not considered an invasive species. Pure Mangalitsa of Okemos Michigan raises them. But I think his problem is his pigs are not pure Mangalistas but are cross bred with Russian which I think he affirmed. That is why they are considering his pigs to be an invasive species.

I think the rule is OK but the execution was poor on both sides. There should have been some accommodation reached that would have allowed him to dispose of his stock at a profit and transitioned his stock to something legal. This has been coming for a long time and should not have been a surprise.

It is a shame that the case wasn't ruled on much earlier, and unfortunate he couldn't manage to reach an accommodation with the DNR that would have avoided going to court and avoided him losing his livestock investment. Usually when you sue a government agency, even if you win you lose. Being a broke martyr isn't much satisfaction.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:04   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegs View Post
A few killed piggies that escaped from a local pen is not "widespread damage" which is what the DNR is claiming. This is not a problem such as in TX or HI where pigs are rampaging everything everywhere.
Well, TX and HI situations are what the Michigan DNR is trying to prevent. If the offending species are not on the farm, they can't escape.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:34   #25
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I'll support Michigan DNR on this one.
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