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Old 12-25-2012, 15:20   #51
jdavionic
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My litmus test goes beyond LE. I 'want' such a rifle because I can own them. Our Founding Fathers wanted the people to have the ability to help prevent a tyrannical gov't from imposing their will upon the people.
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Old 12-25-2012, 15:26   #52
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Do you need handcuffs? Do you need the ability to pull people over? Do you need to wear body armor all day? Do you need the legal obligation to act in all crimes you see? ...and a bunch of other things.
You proceed from a false dichotomy. If I'm a Catholic and attend church regularly, I don't need to wear vestments, hand out the host, and preach a sermon to believe the same teachings as the priest.

I may not be a sworn officer, nor do I have legal authority to carry out the duties of a sworn officer. But I have every right to PROTECT myself the same as they do.

Nice try.
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Old 12-25-2012, 15:31   #53
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I live in a very rural location as well. SO takes a long while to show up. But, my Glock 20 should do the trick nicely. It is easier to wield and has a nice punch to it.

As far as the AR-15, I have one, they aren't exactly as wieldly as a pistol. Not an AK or AR pistol on the other hand is, and uses the same ammo.

But, you have to think about the ammo you use, your backstop and the threat. My little AK Pistol is not going to do me any favors if it overpenetrates goes through sheet rock walls and wounds or kills a loved one.

Having the tool is one thing, knowing what it is capable of, and how to handle it is another.

If you want want a good home defense weapon, I strongly recommend a 12 guage pump shotgun.

If you are going to use the "Police" argument, I don't know any station or agency that doesn't employ a 12 guage pump.

With all home defense items, you need to know how to handle the weapon, what it is capable of, and most importantly, keeping it secured from little curious hands that may cause you a tragedy.

With a 12 guage pump, if you choose to keep it with you, and you are determined to keep it as the "Police" do, you need to keep it on "hot standby". In other words, the magazine tube is full, but you don't keep one in the chamber.

There are several reasons for this. There is no other sound in the world like a pump shotgun being racked. The other is to avoid accidental discharge that may cause great bodily harm or death. That means by a finger on the trigger or something as silly as banging your butt stock.

A 12 guage pump will dischage if you slam the butt stock hard enough with a shotgun shell chambered. That could mean blowing a hole in an inocent, a wall, or your face.

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Old 12-25-2012, 15:37   #54
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Originally Posted by Ironbar View Post
You proceed from a false dichotomy. If I'm a Catholic and attend church regularly, I don't need to wear vestments, hand out the host, and preach a sermon to believe the same teachings as the priest.

I may not be a sworn officer, nor do I have legal authority to carry out the duties of a sworn officer. But I have every right to PROTECT myself the same as they do.

Nice try.
Yes, you do have that right, but it is disingenuous if you only make it about the gun. Again, do you wear body armor everyday (or all the various training...)


One more time, I am not against the sentiment, I am pointing out a flaw in the argument.
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Old 12-25-2012, 15:52   #55
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If your argument is to be valid, Again, why do you not wear body armor all the time? If you make it just about the gun, your argument will be dismissed, and it is somewhat valid to do so.
I don't recall them trying to make body armor illegal to own.

Having good locks on my doors is important too, but again those are not being threatened to take away from me.
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Old 12-25-2012, 15:58   #56
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I don't recall them trying to make body armor illegal to own.

Having good locks on my doors is important too, but again those are not being threatened to take away from me.
It isnt about having or not having body armor. It is about making the argument "The police have those guns, so should I"

(which, one more time, I tend to agree with)

The issue with that argument is, you have made it only about the gun. To those opposed to that argument, you lose credibility because you dont really take the steps the police do, interms of other equipment and training.

...and most people dont. It is a very valid argument.

I am trying to get people to see how "the other side" thinks and the fact that sometimes they damned well have a point. We have to know such things or we will not advance our cause.
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Old 12-25-2012, 16:06   #57
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
I live in a very rural location as well. SO takes a long while to show up. But, my Glock 20 should do the trick nicely. It is easier to wield and has a nice punch to it.

As far as the AR-15, I have one, they aren't exactly as wieldly as a pistol. Not an AK or AR pistol on the other hand is, and uses the same ammo.

But, you have to think about the ammo you use, your backstop and the threat. My little AK Pistol is not going to do me any favors if it overpenetrates goes through sheet rock walls and wounds or kills a loved one.

Having the tool is one thing, knowing what it is capable of, and how to handle it is another.

If you want want a good home defense weapon, I strongly recommend a 12 guage pump shotgun.

If you are going to use the "Police" argument, I don't know any station or agency that doesn't employ a 12 guage pump.

With all home defense items, you need to know how to handle the weapon, what it is capable of, and most importantly, keeping it secured from little curious hands that may cause you a tragedy.

With a 12 guage pump, if you choose to keep it with you, and you are determined to keep it as the "Police" do, you need to keep it on "hot standby". In other words, the magazine tube is full, but you don't keep one in the chamber.

There are several reasons for this. There is no other sound in the world like a pump shotgun being racked. The other is to avoid accidental discharge that may cause great bodily harm or death. That means by a finger on the trigger or something as silly as banging your butt stock.

A 12 guage pump will dischage if you slam the butt stock hard enough with a shotgun shell chambered. That could mean blowing a hole in an inocent, a wall, or your face.

Knowing is half the Battle - YouTube
All worth considering, but we should be able to choose, shouldn't we?

There is a strong case to be made that the AR is easier to shoot more accurately by my wife than a shotgun is, and also that certain rounds have less penetration through walls, and it holds more ammo for less weight. Those aspects have been taken into account by police agencies as well.
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Old 12-25-2012, 16:10   #58
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It isnt about having or not having body armor. It is about making the argument "The police have those guns, so should I"

(which, one more time, I tend to agree with)

The issue with that argument is, you have made it only about the gun. To those opposed to that argument, you lose credibility because you dont really take the steps the police do, interms of other equipment and training.

...and most people dont. It is a very valid argument.

I am trying to get people to see how "the other side" thinks and the fact that sometimes they damned well have a point. We have to know such things or we will not advance our cause.
My focus hasn't been about the other aspects of police defense, but fine to add them in if you want to. I'm not opposed to legally being able to wear body armor or get training.

My focus is on the gun because that is what is being threatened to be taken away.

Last edited by ithaca_deerslayer; 12-25-2012 at 17:44..
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Old 12-25-2012, 16:32   #59
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
All worth considering, but we should be able to choose, shouldn't we?

There is a strong case to be made that the AR is easier to shoot more accurately by my wife than a shotgun is, and also that certain rounds have less penetration through walls, and it holds more ammo for less weight. Those aspects have been taken into account by police agencies as well.
The arguement keeps comming back to "what the Police have", the 12 guage is the first weapon of choice. The AR is not always. You have to choose, but you also have to live with all the consequences. Depending on your .223 round, you will clear all your dry walls and exit your home and out into the X-factor variable of other people.

If you want to be like the Police, you are also responsible for every round discharged and for the damage it causes.

The AR is not a magic stick that solves problems, sometimes it can cause them just as well.

I was never happy with a .223 as an entry tool. I used that on the perimeter to take out drug dogs. I would not like the pucker factor of firing a .223 within an home. The .223 round travels at an extremely high velocity, so much that it tumbles in the air. It is basically a .22 round on steroids and can be deflected and change course of flight. Brush can send that round in a tangential direction.

I am simply saying think before deciding that this is the "ultimate tool". It really isn't. The main reason I own a Colt AR? Ammo will always be plentiful along with magazines because it is used by the MILITARY. No real other reason. It is the same reason I own a Beretta 92F. You have parts availablility, ammo and magazines. No other reason.

The reason I own AK's? They take a licking and keep on shooting, the same reason I choose Glock as my pistol of choice. Few moving parts and the reliability factor.

If I thought XD's were Glock reliable, I would still be an XD guy, because they are less ugly and more ergonomic.

There are a lot of pistols out there that are more ergonomic and aethestically pleasing than Glocks. But, they aren't anywhere as realiable with fewer moving parts.

There is a reason I own "wheel guns". They are more reiiable than pistols. About the only thing that screws them up is a timing issue, and that is hard to do to them.

The reason I own bolt action rifles? Hunting, and they are more reliable than semi-auto rifles.

The same reason I own pump shotguns, they don't jam up like semis and aren't picky eaters whether it is full recoil or reduced recoil, it all works.

You have to figure out what works for you, and why. Ultimately, it is your decision and should be. When you pull the tirgger the responsibility is ultimately yours and should be. Period, paragrah.
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Old 12-25-2012, 16:42   #60
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Many police departments do not issue or allow rifles.
But their swat teams use them so we need them.
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Old 12-25-2012, 17:21   #61
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Several nations with extremely strict gun control have sky high rates of gun violence. Old Mexico comes to mind. Don't give me that developed nations stuff.

Also Japan is a completely different culture than our country. That might also have something to do with their low rate of gun violence. My Japanese daughter in law says their version of the Mafia has guns, but they don't use them as often.

Just my opinion.
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Old 12-25-2012, 17:23   #62
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Exactly.

And by the way, my son is 7. If you throw enough cases of ammo into the deal, maybe an arrangement can be made in a few years
Wait a minute... shouldn't the gifts be flowing my way?
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Old 12-25-2012, 17:48   #63
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Several nations with extremely strict gun control have sky high rates of gun violence. Old Mexico comes to mind. Don't give me that developed nations stuff.

Also Japan is a completely different culture than our country. That might also have something to do with their low rate of gun violence. My Japanese daughter in law says their version of the Mafia has guns, but they don't use them as often.

Just my opinion.
70 years ago the Japanese people were convinced their emperor was a God.
70 years ago their military thought sneak attacking the Americans at Pearl Harbor was a good idea.
Japan is currently described as one of the most racist nations in the world.
We really want to be adopt their philosophy?
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Old 12-25-2012, 17:54   #64
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To the Op
Your argument is about as valid as any others I have heard.
I had the same "discussion" with a fomer Marine. His argument, was that Assault weapons are only used to kill people. That no civilian should be allowed to own one.
My argument was that many of the rifles/handguns in use today-originally designed for military use- are now responsibly used by millions of gun owners for target practice, hunting game.
He was not persuaded. Neither was I.
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Old 12-25-2012, 18:02   #65
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When was the last time you went to a class to learn how to deescalate violent situations with your words?
Can you recommend any good reading material on how to hone this skill?

I didn't know classes were available on this subject. I'd like to learn more.
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Old 12-25-2012, 18:07   #66
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I know of agencies that do not allow rifles. I know of others that do not issue them. SAPD, (San Antonio 7th largest city in the country) does not issue them to Patrol and it was not until a few short years ago they started letting some Officers carry one. At some agencies, only supervisors can have a rifle.

The idea that even among some departments, some officer cant have certain weapons weakens the hell out of the argument that "if they police can have them, so should I"...an anti cant destroy that by pointing out "in some cases Police dont...."
I suppose I'm fortunate to work where I do then

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Old 12-25-2012, 18:08   #67
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Rabbi, how many violent crimes committed in your jurisdiction last week? How many where the police were not just historians? Wasn't it decided that the police have no duty to protect individual citizens? So I am, for all intense and purposes, responsible for my own safety and defense, correct? Now, that said, you place yourself in dangerous situations daily as part of your job and we are not obligated to grab up villains. But shouldn't we as citizens have access to the same defense tools, if we so choose?
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Old 12-25-2012, 18:13   #68
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Wait a minute... shouldn't the gifts be flowing my way?
Is steel cased ok
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Old 12-25-2012, 18:13   #69
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AND that has jack all to do with the 2A. The 2A was to make the citizenry a military. There was no standing army until the War of 1811, and that was a controversial move. So, once again, the OP tititle should be, "If the Miltiary Has it, I need it."
And police existed in the USA at the time the constitution was ratified?
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Old 12-25-2012, 18:17   #70
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And police existed in the USA at the time the constitution was ratified?
George Washington excericsed the first police action personally durring Shay's Rebellion.

The Constitution lists the Sheriff as the highest government official.

Customs has existed since the 18th Century.

So, yeah, it not only has a place in the Constiution, but a history from the period as well.
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Old 12-25-2012, 18:18   #71
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Guns are for wimps. I trained with Rex for 8 weeks and now no one can stop me
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Old 12-25-2012, 18:59   #72
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Guns are for wimps. I trained with Rex for 8 weeks and now no one can stop me
Napoleon Dynamite - Rex Kwon Do [HQ] - YouTube
The movie was hillarious. The cartoon was even funnier. Too bad they cancelled it.
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Old 12-25-2012, 22:37   #73
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George Washington excericsed the first police action personally durring Shay's Rebellion.

The Constitution lists the Sheriff as the highest government official.

Customs has existed since the 18th Century.

So, yeah, it not only has a place in the Constiution, but a history from the period as well.

Funny, I don't see it mentioned at all in any of those BORs...guess that means the police, like our rights to bear arms in defense of self don't exist? The closest reference is the 4th, and yet, no mention of "police", "constable" or "sheriff" there.

Yep, like you figured, police, like your right to bear arms in defense of property and/or self didn't exist then.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:30   #74
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Rabbi, how many violent crimes committed in your jurisdiction last week? How many where the police were not just historians? Wasn't it decided that the police have no duty to protect individual citizens? So I am, for all intense and purposes, responsible for my own safety and defense, correct? Now, that said, you place yourself in dangerous situations daily as part of your job and we are not obligated to grab up villains. But shouldn't we as citizens have access to the same defense tools, if we so choose?
Many.

Some.

(I dont know the exact numbers)

But you are flat out wrong about what you think SCOTUS said about protecting people.(people love to quote that ruling but it often only proves they dont understand it and jsut want the soundbite) The police have no obligation to be your security lacking a reason to do so. The police damned well are responsible and under a legal obligation to act if there is a valid reason to do so.

And yes, outside of a valid thread and available police, you are on "your own" when it comes to living your life. I dont disagree that you should have the tools to do so but one more time, I am pointing out the valid argument the other side makes when you only make it about the guns.

The Police dont always get it right with all the other tools and all the training and your argument is, I just want the gun and that is all I need. That is a horrid argument, even if you should have the right.
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Old 12-26-2012, 03:44   #75
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Several nations with extremely strict gun control have sky high rates of gun violence. Old Mexico comes to mind. Don't give me that developed nations stuff.

Also Japan is a completely different culture than our country. That might also have something to do with their low rate of gun violence. My Japanese daughter in law says their version of the Mafia has guns, but they don't use them as often.

Just my opinion.
Again, Much of Europe...

We have actual results vs. your opinion on how that would play out here.

I actually agree with you but what you fail to see is, to an on the fence party, who is looking at results vs. the feelings of pro gun people, well, we look like a damned fool in the eyes of most people.

In the face of facts, your untested opinions dont mean much to most people. You must chew on this truth no matter how you feel about the issue, and in particular, how you feel about people who dont see it your way.
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