GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-24-2012, 11:17   #51
Ship A'Hoy
Trigger Control
 
Ship A'Hoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pa
Posts: 776
Pittsburgh has a School Police department but they are not armed.
__________________
"You won't rise to the occasion - you'll default to your level of training." Barrett Tillman
NRA LE Certified Handgun/Shotgun Instructor
Certified Glock Armorer
Speed is fine, accuracy is final.
Ship A'Hoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 12:40   #52
RWBlue
CLM Number 120
Mr. CISSP, CISA
 
RWBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,352
Quote:
Originally Posted by trdvet View Post
You just described 99.99% of college PDs.
At a college level, you might have a better chance, but at a school board level, NO way.
__________________
One day, I shall come back. Yes, I shall come back. Until then, there must be no regrets, no tears, no anxieties. Just go forward in all your beliefs and prove to me that I am not mistaken in mine.
RWBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 15:00   #53
Ship A'Hoy
Trigger Control
 
Ship A'Hoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Pa
Posts: 776
School Obama's Daughters Attend Has 11 Armed Guards

The school, Sidwell Friends School in Washington, DC, has 11 security officers and is seeking to hire a new police officer as we speak.

If you dismiss this by saying, "Of course they have armed guards -- they get Secret Service protection," then you've missed the larger point.

The larger point is that this is standard operating procedure for the school, period. And this is the reason people like NBC's David Gregory send their kids to Sidwell, they know their kids will be protected from the carnage that befell kids at a school where armed guards weren't used (and weren't even allowed).

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Secret-Service
__________________
"You won't rise to the occasion - you'll default to your level of training." Barrett Tillman
NRA LE Certified Handgun/Shotgun Instructor
Certified Glock Armorer
Speed is fine, accuracy is final.
Ship A'Hoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 17:52   #54
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
Very bad idea forming a police department under educators. It would be like forming a police department under a bunch of scientists. It is not that they are not knowledgeable, but they don't think the correct way to run a police department.
Depends on the administration who are responsible. I've seen some really good ones run by those who know the business as they are retired cops who went into education or those who know better and hire good chiefs and let them run it the way a police department should be run and stay out of it while they tend to education.

Unfortunately, those are the exceptions and not the rule.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2012, 17:55   #55
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
At a college level, you might have a better chance, but at a school board level, NO way.
Negative around these parts.

School (K-12) police have better equipment and resources than a lot of the little community college police and the big public university police agencies are pretty good too like the UC or CSU system but private colleges cannot have police in CA.

More than a few community college police are not armed or barely get to do any policing because they have no resources since they only cover 1 or 2 relatively small campuses compared to some school districts here which are bigger than cities.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 18:44   #56
e847fy
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ship A'Hoy View Post
School Obama's Daughters Attend Has 11 Armed Guards

The school, Sidwell Friends School in Washington, DC, has 11 security officers and is seeking to hire a new police officer as we speak.

If you dismiss this by saying, "Of course they have armed guards -- they get Secret Service protection," then you've missed the larger point.

The larger point is that this is standard operating procedure for the school, period. And this is the reason people like NBC's David Gregory send their kids to Sidwell, they know their kids will be protected from the carnage that befell kids at a school where armed guards weren't used (and weren't even allowed).

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Secret-Service
Schools in D.C have police from MPD in them already. High school and Jr. High
e847fy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 20:51   #57
nikerret
Mr. Awesome
 
nikerret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas
Posts: 6,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman800 View Post
Negative around these parts.

School (K-12) police have better equipment and resources than a lot of the little community college police and the big public university police agencies are pretty good too like the UC or CSU system but private colleges cannot have police in CA.

More than a few community college police are not armed or barely get to do any policing because they have no resources since they only cover 1 or 2 relatively small campuses compared to some school districts here which are bigger than cities.
The community college I attended only had unarmed security. A group of us tried to get them to be armed, but we were told there was no reason to scare people with guns. This was, at the time (and probably still is) the most affluent community college in the State.
__________________
-Ambition is only appreciated after success.
-3/325:Now, where's my dedicated bodyguard? Oh, yeah, he's staring back at me in the mirror.
-"Every fear hides a wish"
nikerret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2012, 05:10   #58
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikerret View Post
the most affluent community college in the State.
What is an "affluent" community college?

In CA, community colleges are pretty much a step above public K-12 in terms of prestige... private academies are where it's at.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2012, 08:35   #59
merlynusn
Senior Member
 
merlynusn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 3,265
Just for amusements sake...

The Democrats are all aghast at the NRA's suggestion to put an armed police officer in every school. How dare the NRA say that we need to put more guns in our schools.

Well that bastion of liberalism, Sen. Barbara Boxer wants to activate the National Guard and put them in the schools to protect them. http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...,7530900.story

Hypocrite much?
merlynusn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2012, 09:57   #60
volsbear
Lifetime Membership
IWannaBeSedated
 
volsbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 11,871
Hasn't that stupid crap for brains ever seen "The Seige"?
__________________
"Fast is fine. But accuracy is final."

"He'd look better with lividity" - BlueIron

Black Rifle Club - RRA-PSG
S&W Club - 22227
volsbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2012, 10:06   #61
Mayhem like Me
Semper Paratus
 
Mayhem like Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,152
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ship A'Hoy View Post
Pittsburgh has a School Police department but they are not armed.
Then they are not police...

they are" school kinda police, but not really ,cause our chief gives in to the demands of lefty school administrators"
__________________
How do you establish intent?
Well when a naked man is chasing a woman down an alley with a butcher knife and a hard on, I figure he's not collecting for the red cross...Inspector H. Callahan

Last edited by Mayhem like Me; 12-27-2012 at 10:06..
Mayhem like Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2012, 12:08   #62
oldman11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,263
These anti-gun libs don't have a brain one among the group. Reminds me of a bunch of hens running around with their heads cut off.
oldman11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2012, 16:27   #63
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlynusn View Post
Just for amusements sake...

The Democrats are all aghast at the NRA's suggestion to put an armed police officer in every school. How dare the NRA say that we need to put more guns in our schools.

Well that bastion of liberalism, Sen. Barbara Boxer wants to activate the National Guard and put them in the schools to protect them. http://www.latimes.com/news/politics...,7530900.story

Hypocrite much?
She probably wants them to go in unarmed....

Randy

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
steveksux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2012, 23:31   #64
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
She probably wants them to go in unarmed....

Randy

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Or they will get the guns but no magazines and ammo, like how they were sent into the L.A. riots.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2012, 00:07   #65
Marlowe
Senior Member
 
Marlowe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Ventura County, CA
Posts: 236
My impression is that the public schools with a fixed police presence are typically middle and high schools. The primary role of the police in these schools is not to protect the students from an outside threat, such as a would be mass killer, but to handle the range of police problems that occur in the student community...gangs, drugs, theft, truancy, etc.

I am not aware of any elementary schools with SROs, for the issues that SROS typically deal with are not usually present among elementary school kids. They're just too young.

So, placing an officer in a given elementary school to protect against a statistically remote chance of mass murder attempt is hard to justify, from a financial standpoint. The SROs in middle and high schools have much more to deal with to justify their positions...and the cost of those positions.

So, I see the biggest obstacle to placing police in elementary schools as being financial.

Of course, a madman looking to carry out an attack in a school might well choose an elementary school over a middle or high school because it is the softest of soft targets...if Newtown style attacks become a trend, then the financial calculus could change.

I agree that many of the liberal mindset have an aversion to a police presence on schools, any school, and would be similarly averse to armed private security at schools. Again, that aversion is subject to change if Newtown style attacks become the trend.
__________________
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie, deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive and unrealistic." President John F. Kennedy
Marlowe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2012, 11:31   #66
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
In CA, the law is pretty much that kids under 7 cannot commit crimes and kids age 7-14 have a rebuttable presumption that they cannot commit crimes due to lack of understanding of their actions. It doesn't really matter over 14 either due to our joke of a juvenile criminal system that treats offenders under 18 as babies while they laugh at us busting our butts to arrest them for all sorts of crimes like burglary, drugs, assaults, gang crimes, etc.

Then the juvenile court judge tells us to leave the room while he talks to the juvenile offender to get his story because having us in there in uniform is too intimidating to the poor juvenile. Whatever.

That is one reason there is no real need for uniformed cops in elementary schools because you are not really able to do anything anyway as far as enforcing the laws. Now with Newtown, the paradigm shifts from enforcement to protection, but is that enough to justify paying a cop to stand around all day playing school administrator?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.

Last edited by lawman800; 12-28-2012 at 11:32..
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2012, 13:48   #67
Ajon412
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NJ. Don't hold it against me
Posts: 3,605
Just saw this...

http://www.officer.com/news/10846725...chool-security

Quote:
There's even debate over whether anyone should have a gun in a school, even a trained law enforcement officer. "In general teachers don't want guns in schools period," said Dennis Van Roekel, president of the National Education Association, one of the two large unions representing teachers. He added that one size does not fit all districts and said the union has supported schools that wanted a trained officer. Most teachers, he said, do not want to be armed themselves.

"It's a school. It's not a place where guns should be," he commented.
...the debate continues.....and then there's this:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journal...ops-in-Schools

...and this....

http://www.washingtonguardian.com/wa...curity-failure
__________________
"A man's got to know his limitations."-Harry Callahan
“...Fate rarely calls upon us at a moment of our choosing”
“The difficult is what takes a little time. The impossible is what takes a little longer.”

Last edited by Ajon412; 12-28-2012 at 13:59..
Ajon412 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2012, 13:55   #68
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajon412 View Post
"schools is not where guns should be..."

Tell that to Adam Lanza. Apparently these liberal teachers did not get that message out to all the school shooters.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 08:37   #69
merlynusn
Senior Member
 
merlynusn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 3,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman800 View Post
In CA, the law is pretty much that kids under 7 cannot commit crimes and kids age 7-14 have a rebuttable presumption that they cannot commit crimes due to lack of understanding of their actions. It doesn't really matter over 14 either due to our joke of a juvenile criminal system that treats offenders under 18 as babies while they laugh at us busting our butts to arrest them for all sorts of crimes like burglary, drugs, assaults, gang crimes, etc.

Then the juvenile court judge tells us to leave the room while he talks to the juvenile offender to get his story because having us in there in uniform is too intimidating to the poor juvenile. Whatever.

That is one reason there is no real need for uniformed cops in elementary schools because you are not really able to do anything anyway as far as enforcing the laws. Now with Newtown, the paradigm shifts from enforcement to protection, but is that enough to justify paying a cop to stand around all day playing school administrator?
Honestly, no, it's not worth the expense. How many elementary schools do you have in your jurisdiction? I know that here it's pretty much 2-3 elementary schools feed 1 middle school and 1-2 middle schools feed a high school. Are you really going to pay $30k-60k a year for an officer at an elementary school on the .00001% chance that something like Newton happens?

Whether we like it or not, our country (feds, state, city/county) does not have the money to fund this. We have 28 high schools, 42 middle schools and 101 elementary schools. And since most of our SROs are topped out, we'll just use an average of $60k. We are looking at over $6 Million dollars just to fund the SROs in elementary schools for a year. Not counting cars, equipment and benefits. I know we have a larger area than most, but we also have a larger budget. I'm sure that pared down it would be similar across the board. If money were not an issue, then sure, go for it. But realistically, it's just not practical with the financial stability we find ourselves in.

Last edited by merlynusn; 12-29-2012 at 08:38..
merlynusn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 09:40   #70
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
In SoCal, your average SRO will cost six figures, with salary in the $60k range at minimum, plus statutory benefits like worker's comp and FICA, and PERS retirement contributions, and medical and health insurance costs, and you are looking at each SRO costing the employer around $100-130k each.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 10:25   #71
volsbear
Lifetime Membership
IWannaBeSedated
 
volsbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 11,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman800 View Post
In SoCal, your average SRO will cost six figures, with salary in the $60k range at minimum, plus statutory benefits like worker's comp and FICA, and PERS retirement contributions, and medical and health insurance costs, and you are looking at each SRO costing the employer around $100-130k each.
The SRO at the high school where my wife teaches pulled almost $90k last year. Throw her in her fringe benefits and that was probably a $125-130k nut for the village. And that's one school. I believe there are about 20 including the privates.

Next it'll be an armed guard in every daycare.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
"Fast is fine. But accuracy is final."

"He'd look better with lividity" - BlueIron

Black Rifle Club - RRA-PSG
S&W Club - 22227
volsbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 10:26   #72
oldman11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman800 View Post
In SoCal, your average SRO will cost six figures, with salary in the $60k range at minimum, plus statutory benefits like worker's comp and FICA, and PERS retirement contributions, and medical and health insurance costs, and you are looking at each SRO costing the employer around $100-130k each.
So you don't think your children are worth that much, huh?
oldman11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 10:48   #73
volsbear
Lifetime Membership
IWannaBeSedated
 
volsbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 11,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
So you don't think your children are worth that much, huh?
It won't be the police department screaming about how much this costs. It'll be joe average citizen getting crushed by his property taxes.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
"Fast is fine. But accuracy is final."

"He'd look better with lividity" - BlueIron

Black Rifle Club - RRA-PSG
S&W Club - 22227
volsbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 10:52   #74
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
So you don't think your children are worth that much, huh?
Strawman much? Red herring much? Misdirect much? Put words in other people's mouth much? When did I put any worth on any child, including mine? I am stating the plain costs to an employer when they have to decide where to deploy very limited resources such as an officer and a tight budget.

Or are you clairvoyant and know something that I don't, such as me being promoted to chief of police with unlimited personnel and budget resources so that I can put an officer everywhere to prevent crime?

Let me turn it around on you, since you guys are so great at that type of logic. How much is your family or your life worth? Do you spend every single dime you have to hire them around the clock armed bodyguards? No? Why not? Are they not worth it? You hypocrite. Why don't you pony up the money to put an officer at your kid's school?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 13:00   #75
DaBigBR
No Infidels!
 
DaBigBR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Circling the wagons.
Posts: 15,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
So you don't think your children are worth that much, huh?
It's simple economics.

Given the small number of occurrences and the large expense, it's completely unfeasible to pay for a police officer to sit in every elementary school all week long. If such a plan was implemented, it would result in a significant increase in taxes to justify the staffing increases. People might (big might) be willing to deal with that today, but in six months or a year when Newtown is another place "where something happened once", they won't.

On the law enforcement side, such a plan has recruiting problems, too. I don't think you're going to find a lot of guys who are going to want to do it week in and week out. It's definitely not what I signed up for, and I can do a whole lot more good the vast majority of time on the street. That means you end up with one of two types of officers in the schools: retired-on-duty folks or new inexperienced folks. Both are better than nothing, but neither are ideal.
__________________
"Logic is rarely the engine that propels a police department forward."

-David Simon in "Homicide"
DaBigBR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:18.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 818
238 Members
580 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42