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Old 12-20-2012, 17:20   #226
concretefuzzynuts
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Take the seconds you devoted to debating here and write to your congressmen, senators and even to the president.

Tell them that you don't want to loose your gun rights. That the AWB is a bad idea!
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Old 12-20-2012, 17:22   #227
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The whole concept of an FFL itself is an abomination. There should be no federal licensure.
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:02   #228
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I'll offer one last bit of food for thought, quoted from the majority's 5 to 4 opinion in Heller:

Quote:
Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose... The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
So, while the idea of an utterly unemcumbered right under the 2nd Amendment is a nice libertarian dream, it in no way comports with the amendment as understood by the conservative members of the Court, two of whom (Scalia and Thomas) are constitutional originalists.

Scalia, btw, authored the opinion.

Last edited by Henry's Dad; 12-20-2012 at 19:03..
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:06   #229
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Hen, you've been here over a year and still don't have a feel for us. Either you're trolling or completely dense. Nobody, other than perhaps anti trolls, shares your interpretations of our posts. You're just getting tiresome.
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:11   #230
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Here is some food for thought:

1. Why should a law abiding gun owner have to pay for a criminal background check when he/she buys a gun from a licensed dealer while Joe Felon walks out of a gun show with a gun without being checked out? Makes no sense.

2. A person selling his/her own gun that was purchased by them at a licensed dealer has his/her name tied to that gun's serial number. If that gun is ever used in a crime and left at the crime scene, guess who the police are coming after?

Yes, I know that most of guns used in crimes are stolen, but at some point these unregistered guns are going to be resold and used in the commission of a crime.

If criminals are going to get their hands on guns, at least make them work for them.

We should all do are part in making sure that guns do not get into the wrong hands. The more crimes committed with guns, the greater chance we have of our gun rights being taken away. This last shooting in CT could very well be the beginning of the end.
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:12   #231
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Yes, really. I'm pretty sure what he meant is that every gun show transaction falls under the laws that apply to the same transaction in your living room - if your state requires all sales to go through an FFL, then they do, at a gun show or not, and if your state has no special law on private sales, it's the same at the gun show.
Well what you say is not the case. Some states have different laws for a private sale in your living room than for a private sale at a gun show.
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:16   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockguy213 View Post
Here is some food for thought:

1. Why should a law abiding gun owner have to pay for a criminal background check when he/she buys a gun from a licensed dealer while Joe Felon walks out of a gun show with a gun without being checked out? Makes no sense.

2. A person selling his/her own gun that was purchased by them at a licensed dealer has his/her name tied to that gun's serial number. If that gun is ever used in a crime and left at the crime scene, guess who the police are coming after?

Yes, I know that most of guns used in crimes are stolen, but at some point these unregistered guns are going to be resold and used in the commission of a crime.

If criminals are going to get their hands on guns, at least make them work for them.

We should all do are part in making sure that guns do not get into the wrong hands. The more crimes committed with guns, the greater chance we have of our gun rights being taken away. This last shooting in CT could very well be the beginning of the end.
1. When is the last time you bought a gun? I haven't ever been charged for a 4473 NICS check

2. Wrong. The gun was sold or stolen.
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:17   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry's Dad View Post
I'll offer one last bit of food for thought, quoted from the majority's 5 to 4 opinion in Heller:

So, while the idea of an utterly unemcumbered right under the 2nd Amendment is a nice libertarian dream, it in no way comports with the amendment as understood by the conservative members of the Court, two of whom (Scalia and Thomas) are constitutional originalists.

Scalia, btw, authored the opinion.
You go with Scalia and Thomas, I'll go with Thomas Jefferson.

I don't know where you get this libertarian bit from but its simply reading the Amendment as written.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 12-20-2012 at 19:18..
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:19   #234
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Originally Posted by glockguy213 View Post
Here is some food for thought:

1. Why should a law abiding gun owner have to pay for a criminal background check when he/she buys a gun from a licensed dealer while Joe Felon walks out of a gun show with a gun without being checked out? Makes no sense.

2. A person selling his/her own gun that was purchased by them at a licensed dealer has his/her name tied to that gun's serial number. If that gun is ever used in a crime and left at the crime scene, guess who the police are coming after?

Yes, I know that most of guns used in crimes are stolen, but at some point these unregistered guns are going to be resold and used in the commission of a crime.

If criminals are going to get their hands on guns, at least make them work for them.

We should all do are part in making sure that guns do not get into the wrong hands. The more crimes committed with guns, the greater chance we have of our gun rights being taken away. This last shooting in CT could very well be the beginning of the end.
This is so full of fail. Where do I begin? You make contradictory statements. Are felons buying firearms in gun shows or are they stealing them? You make it sound as if they are going en masse to gun shows and purchasing them. If so, you should have no problem showing that with citations and statistics.

How if by your own admission that guns used in crimes are stolen how are we gonna make criminals work for them by forcing private legal transactions between individuals go through the federal government?

The police don't just go after someone that was the original purchaser of a firearm that was used later in a crime. They will question them however.
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:25   #235
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Hen, you've been here over a year and still don't have a feel for us. Either you're trolling or completely dense. Nobody, other than perhaps anti trolls, shares your interpretations of our posts. You're just getting tiresome.
This all started over a disagreement regarding felons owning guns.

I say they shouldn't.

You say they should.

Other than that, you and I probably don't have much disagreement between us.

If you think defending a felon's right to own a gun is a good idea (constitutionally, politically, or in terms of public relations), and is the logical conclusion of 2A absolutism, call Wayne LaPierre and tell him to push it as an agenda item at Friday's NRA press conference and during his appearance this weekend on Meet the Press.

While you're at it, find me a single pro-2A member of the US House or Senate who is willing to stand on the floor of their chamber and give a speech advocating for gun ownership for convicted felons. Hell, find me one who would have said it before last Friday's shooting.

My money says neither Wayne nor a single member of Congress will take you up on it. So I guess that makes them all flaming liberals looking to bed down with Sara Brady just like me, right?
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:31   #236
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
You go with Scalia and Thomas, I'll go with Thomas Jefferson.

I don't know where you get this libertarian bit from but its simply reading the Amendment as written.

James Madison wrote the Second Amendment.

Under the Constitution the judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judicial power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under the Constitution.
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:35   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czsmithGT View Post
James Madison wrote the Second Amendment.

Under the Constitution the judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judicial power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under the Constitution.
Not to speak for CF, but he was referencing this quote by TJ..
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."-
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:53   #238
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Originally Posted by whoflungdo View Post
Not to speak for CF, but he was referencing this quote by TJ..
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."-
Oh I see. Well that quote was from a draft of the Virginia Constitution and it was not adopted.
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Old 12-20-2012, 19:56   #239
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Quote:
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1. When is the last time you bought a gun? I haven't ever been charged for a 4473 NICS check

2. Wrong. The gun was sold or stolen.
1. Three guns in the last three weeks. The latest was today at 3:30 PM, Glock 20, Ace Sporting Goods, Washington, PA.

2. The police will still come to the sellers door, it is then up to the individual to divulge to the police officer, the whereabouts of the gun.

About 7 or 8 years ago, a dealer in north-central PA had one of his personal guns stolen from his home by his own son, who then sold it to a "friend", who, after a night of drinking, shot and killed a state trooper who pulled the the kid over for a traffic violation. The police were at the dealer's store the minute he opened for business that morning.
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Old 12-20-2012, 20:00   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry's Dad View Post
This all started over a disagreement regarding felons owning guns.

I say they shouldn't.

You say they should.

Other than that, you and I probably don't have much disagreement between us.

If you think defending a felon's right to own a gun is a good idea (constitutionally, politically, or in terms of public relations), and is the logical conclusion of 2A absolutism, call Wayne LaPierre and tell him to push it as an agenda item at Friday's NRA press conference and during his appearance this weekend on Meet the Press.

While you're at it, find me a single pro-2A member of the US House or Senate who is willing to stand on the floor of their chamber and give a speech advocating for gun ownership for convicted felons. Hell, find me one who would have said it before last Friday's shooting.

My money says neither Wayne nor a single member of Congress will take you up on it. So I guess that makes them all flaming liberals looking to bed down with Sara Brady just like me, right?
You still don't get it.

This isn't about felons owning guns. This is about allowing the government to whittle out special classes of people who are denied certain rights, such as the right of self defense.

It is also about nonsensical feel good laws that accomplish nothing. Felons intent on using guns to commit another crime, will get them. Law be damned. So you have, by definition, disarmed only those felons (40% by the numbers you cited) who have served their sentence and taken advantage of their newfound freedom and opportunity to be a law abiding, contributing member of society.

Finally, it is about reassigning responsibility for keeping dangerous felons off of the streets -- to the courts and legislatures where it belongs. NOT granting more unconstitutional power to the federal government that has no authority to regulate guns in the first place. If they can't be trusted among us, keep them locked up.

How many pages has this run and you still can't grasp these simple concepts?

But if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy and like some uber citizen to sell your guns through an FFL, go ahead.
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Old 12-20-2012, 20:04   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glockguy213 View Post
1. Three guns in the last three weeks. The latest was today at 3:30 PM, Glock 20, Ace Sporting Goods, Washington, PA.
And you were charged for a NICS check? I've never been charged for a NICS check. Find a new dealer.

Quote:
2. The police will still come to the sellers door, it is then up to the individual to divulge to the police officer, the whereabouts of the gun.

About 7 or 8 years ago, a dealer in north-central PA had one of his personal guns stolen from his home by his own son, who then sold it to a "friend", who, after a night of drinking, shot and killed a state trooper who pulled the the kid over for a traffic violation. The police were at the dealer's store the minute he opened for business that morning.
Big freakin deal. Is your buddy in prison for murder? That's seems to be what you want to imply here:

Quote:
guess who the police are coming after?
There is a world of difference between once owning a gun that was used in a crime and being prosecuted on that basis.

Was the friend who shot the trooper a convicted felon?

Actually, what you've pointed out here is a point we've been making throughout the thread. 4473 is a defacto gun registration and some of you people here seem ok with that.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 12-20-2012 at 20:11..
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Old 12-20-2012, 20:09   #242
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Oh I see. Well that quote was from a draft of the Virginia Constitution and it was not adopted.
Was it not a quote attributable to Jefferson? Author of the Declaration of Independence and 3rd President of the United States?
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Old 12-20-2012, 20:13   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czsmithGT View Post
James Madison wrote the Second Amendment.

Under the Constitution the judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judicial power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under the Constitution.
No he didn't. He wrote the first draft. It was revised about a dozen times by committee before being ratified.

What did the Constitution Madison drafted say about who would confirm that court and how those people (the Senate) would be selected?

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 12-20-2012 at 20:19..
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Old 12-20-2012, 20:24   #244
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Was it not a quote attributable to Jefferson? Author of the Declaration of Independence and 3rd President of the United States?
Here is another one.

"But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." - Jefferson to H. Tompkinson (AKA Samuel Kercheval), July 12, 1816
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Old 12-20-2012, 20:26   #245
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What did the Constitution Madison drafted say about who would confirm that court and how those people (the Senate) would be selected?
So what?
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Old 12-20-2012, 20:36   #246
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So what?
So the court you referenced has strayed from the institution it was designed to be and become a hyper-political animal. That's what. The court is wrong, a lot. Hell, it just re-wrote the ACA.

so what was your point in referencing it?

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 12-20-2012 at 20:37..
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Old 12-20-2012, 20:41   #247
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Here is another one.

"But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." - Jefferson to H. Tompkinson (AKA Samuel Kercheval), July 12, 1816
And what do you take that quote to mean?
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Old 12-20-2012, 20:43   #248
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I have never been to a gun show that Didnt have private citizens selling from their reserved tables. Its not like spotting bigfoot or something.
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Old 12-20-2012, 20:46   #249
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And you were charged for a NICS check? I've never been charged for a NICS check. Find a new dealer.



Big freakin deal. Is your buddy in prison for murder? That's seems to be what you want to imply here:



There is a world of difference between once owning a gun that was used in a crime and being prosecuted on that basis.

Was the friend who shot the trooper a convicted felon?

Actually, what you've pointed out here is a point we've been making throughout the thread. 4473 is a defacto gun registration and some of you people here seem ok with that.
My apologies, in PA, background checks go through the PA State Police, not the Feds. PSP charge $2.00 for the call and the dealers charge $3.00 for the paperwork.

Bottom line is, I don't want guns getting into the hands of people who are disqualified from owning them. Period.
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Old 12-20-2012, 21:03   #250
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4473 is a defacto gun registration and some of you people here seem ok with that.
How is this true? The FFL fills out the form, then files it away in his records for 20 years. The form is never sent to the government. The only time the FFL is required to show the form is if it is requested as part of an investigation.

During the NICS phone call, no information is exchanged regarding the specific gun(s) being bought. The NICS call is only about the buyer's ability to buy a gun.

I may be wrong about this, so please correct me if I am.

If it is a de facto gun registration, having the most relevant data (make model and serial #) scatterd across the filing cabinets of thousands of FFLs hardly seems like the most efficient method.
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