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Old 12-19-2012, 08:42   #76
M&P15T
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
Can you point to some examples where throwing the antis a bone resulted in an expansion of gun rights? They are a ratchet, like a boa constrictor tightening with your every exhalation.
You are trying to understand what is happening RIGHT NOW, by looking to the past, and this may have grave consequences.

NOTHING, no other tragedy in recent times, has effected the anti-gunners, libs and hippies like this recent shooting in CT. You are trying to decide what to do now, based on what has happened in the past, and you're not understanding the dire situation we find ourselves in now. When NRA "A" rated conservative Republicans are throwing in the towel to stay in office, you should know that things are really, really bad.

The last decade has seen a dramatic increase in our rights. To assume that we will never see any set-backs, to not be able to accept any set-backs, is pure political folly.

Over time our gun rights will ebb and flow with the political winds sweeping across this country. But to be able to hold onto the core of the 2A, we have to know when to bend. Because if we do not bend, and RIGHT THE HELL NOW, we could really, really screw ourselves.

We must do someting positive in the court of public opinion, and we need to do it right now.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-19-2012 at 08:43..
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:42   #77
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
As I said, the organizers of gunshows can prohibit private sales on the premises if they want. And that's how it should be.

This would likely be acceptable to most of us. Their gun show and their rules.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:42   #78
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Who the **** said anything about supporting a 10 day waiting period? Are you daft man?
It'll be proposed along with other compromises. If not now, then the next time.

You're not thinking clearly if you actually believe compromising rights has worked so far and is likely to work in the future. It hasn't. No compromise of the 2nd has prevented further infringement later on. What gives you the impression it ever will?

It will never be enough for some when it comes to control.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:45   #79
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
You are trying to understand what is happening RIGHT NOW, by looking to the past, and this may have grave consequences.

NOTHING, no other tragedy in recent times, has effected the anti-gunners, libs and hippies like this recent shooting in CT. You are trying to decide what to do now, based on what has happened in the past, and you're not understanding the dire situation we find ourselves in now. When NRA "A" rated conservative Republicans are throwing in the towel to stay in office, you should know that things are really, really bad.
Nonsense. The antis played the same song after Columbine, Jonesboro, and all the others.

Quote:
The last decade has seen a dramatic increase in our rights. To assume that we will never see any set-backs, to not be able to accept any set-backs, is pure political folly.
So then you should be able to point to those examples I asked for.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:46   #80
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Not in GA.
Nor KY.....
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:50   #81
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I'm not reading every post in the thread to check, but if someone hasn't already pointed it out, the 'gun show loophole' isn't about gun shows. It's about eliminating private face-to-face sales completely. They say 'end the gun show loophole' but the effect will be that all gun sales will required to go through an FFL. That means FFL fees, NICS fees, and of course $ale$ tax. But more importantly, it gives the government oversight of all firearm transfers. Once they get that, they start selling the public on the next step (registration).
I agree that this is what it's about. Stopping all private sales that currently don't require a NICS check and collecting the tax. In MN there are a lot of sales through local forums. Most self regulate and require a PTP or PTC before they will complete the transaction.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:57   #82
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Again, only at gun shows. Just pacify the anti-gunners. We all know it won't really change anything. Let them think they have won something.

**** THEM!!!


It's already illegal to sell a gun to a federally prohibited person. why do we need more laws???

If the seller is breaking a law, prosecute him/her. If the buyer is breaking a law, prosecute him/her. Look, I just closed the loophole



.

Last edited by tehan2; 12-19-2012 at 08:58..
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:57   #83
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No, we are not devoid of this "understanding" we have just seen it in action far more than you have. And we have watched guys like you compromise us too much. That has been the entire history of this battle since 1968.

Get over yourself. You are not the first to think he could control the fight without first showing you are willing to fight.
If you think that at this very moment, that there is any battle we could win, in any way, shape or form, you're absolutely friggin' high. The court of popular opinion has already ruled following the shootings in CT, and the recent spate of similar incidents.

We are are not facing off against our normal opponents, the same list of characters that support anti-gun legislation. We are facing an entire country of people emotionally over-reacting to these shootings, that are DEMANDING anti-gun legislation. They are calling and writting and e-mailing their elected officials every damn day, demanding that they do something, or they will be removed from office.

And you think the smart thing to do is dig our heels in and not give one inch. And that very attitude and behavior could absolutely end up with the 2A being crushed.

I certainly hope the folks at the NRA are smarter than you.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:59   #84
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Maybe we can get the anti gun group to agree -

If we give up "assault weapons" and "high capacity" mags and "semi autos" and agree to complete registration - and eliminate anything larger than a .22 short - and agree to having our guns locked up at a government facility when not being used at the GOVERNMENT controlled shooting range - and yearly mental health exams and $500 per firearm tax and $1.00 a round ammo tax -

to no additional restrictions for the next 90 days.

Last edited by Z71bill; 12-19-2012 at 09:01..
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:59   #85
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What I have seen (in other states) is people selling a bunch of their stuff, and a handful of their own guns. For example a guy (rancher) selling coyote pelts and a few stuffed animals, and a couple guns from his collection.

I see individual sellers walking around the show with more guns.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:02   #86
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Nonsense. The antis played the same song after Columbine, Jonesboro, and all the others.

So then you should be able to point to those examples I asked for.
Again, you think what is happening right now in the court of public opinion has anything to do with what has happened in the past.

When Columbine, VA Tech and the other shootings happened, the same every-day anti-gunners popped their heads up, railed against guns, and then got ignored. THe public wasn't as worked-up over what had happened.

That is NOT what is happeneing now, and you're missing this most important point.

You are not understanding the pressure that our elected officials are under to enact gun legislation. It's like NOTHING we have seen in the past. Killing 20 6 & 7 year olds has fundamentally changed things, dramatically raised the emotional reaction to new heights, and I fear we are going to get hammered.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:03   #87
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
No, YOU'RE about to let it happen, by assuming a "break but don't bend" attitude.

We as gun owners are at a very pivitol point, with a massive majority of folks in this country emotionally over-reacting to what happened in CT, and our very rights on the line. We may lose big-time, because we are refusing to do anything other than push back against everything.

It is at this very exact moment when we need to be playing the game of popular opinion in the media, and at least look like we are trying to join the population in trying to make a positive difference.

Again, gun owners are our own worst enemy, and I fear we could lose much, much more due to a "break but don't bend" ignorant ass attitude most folks here seem to have. If we give on something that really means nothing, have our say in crafting the legislation by working through the NRA (thereby keeping our own concerns first and foremost), we can keep our rights and freedoms, and look better in the light of overwhelmingly negative media attention on us.
You are allowing them to dictate the terms of the debate. You've already lost.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:05   #88
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**** THEM!!!


It's already illegal to sell a gun to a federally prohibited person. why do we need more laws???
And how is a private seller to know if they are selling to a prohibited person? Crystal ball? Coin flip? Ask nicely?

This is why I have never sold a gun to anyone I didn't know personally.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:06   #89
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If you think that at this very moment, that there is any battle we could win, in any way, shape or form, you're absolutely friggin' high. The court of popular opinion has already ruled following the shootings in CT, and the recent spate of similar incidents.

We are are not facing off against our normal opponents, the same list of characters that support anti-gun legislation. We are facing an entire country of people emotionally over-reacting to these shootings, that are DEMANDING anti-gun legislation. They are calling and writting and e-mailing their elected officials every damn day, demanding that they do something, or they will be removed from office.

And you think the smart thing to do is dig our heels in and not give one inch. And that very attitude and behavior could absolutely end up with the 2A being crushed.

I certainly hope the folks at the NRA are smarter than you.
You are being hysterical. Calm down, as you don't have a clue. There is zero information that says what you are saying, except the media which is hyping their bias. In a couple weeks this will be a thought for a very small minority and those directly affected.

If, at the end of the day there are compromises to be made, then so be it. But that isn't how you start. And this tragedy isn't any different than any other. The same noise was made after Aurora.

For some reason this time some in the gun culture seem to have a measure of guilt that I don't understand.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:09   #90
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Let me ask another way.

Has anyone every seen a private seller, with a table set-up inside a gunshow, selling firearms without NICS checks?
All the time. Welcome to Virginia. Not only is this perfectly legal, a private seller couldn't run a NICS check if they wanted to. Additionally there are several websites dedicated to private sales of firearms in states where this is legal and a common practice. Might as well start calling the "Internet Loophole", or the "Burger King parking lot Loophole." Call it whatever BS you want, but until private sales are struck down in those states, it's not a loophole, it's precisely following the letter and spirit of the law.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:10   #91
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I'm gonna wrap this up for folks that don't seem to be getting this.

In the end, it is just math. Once a certain number of elected officials become willing to vote for anti-gun legislation, it will happen.

It has not happened in the last 10+ years, because the anti-gunners did not have the votes. Now, after this latest shooting in CT, they most definitely have the votes. So be forewarned, its gonna happen. It ain't gonna be stopped.

Ya'll can rail against everything I have posted here, but it's nothing but reality. And, to be logical about it, it's probably too late to do anything pro-active about it at this point.

Good luck to all of us.....we're gonna need it.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:12   #92
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I'm gonna wrap this up for folks that don't seem to be getting this.

In the end, it is just math. Once a certain number of elected officials become willing to vote for anti-gun legislation, it will happen.

It has not happened in the last 10+ years, because the anti-gunners did not have the votes. Now, after this latest shooting in CT, they most definitely have the votes. So be forewarned, its gonna happen. It ain't gonna be stopped.

Ya'll can rail against everything I have posted here, but it's nothing but reality. And, to be logical about it, it's probably too late to do anything pro-active about it at this point.

Good luck to all of us.....we're gonna need it.
You have zero proof of that.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:16   #93
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You are being hysterical. Calm down, as you don't have a clue. There is zero information that says what you are saying, except the media which is hyping their bias. In a couple weeks this will be a thought for a very small minority and those directly affected.

If, at the end of the day there are compromises to be made, then so be it. But that isn't how you start. And this tragedy isn't any different than any other. The same noise was made after Aurora.

For some reason this time some in the gun culture seem to have a measure of guilt that I don't understand.
Incorrect. My fears are based on the fact that two NRA "A" rated Republicans from Virginia have publically stated they will vote for anti-gun legislation. That and simply talking to people, hearing their ractions to the shooting.

That is why I'm thinking that this shooting in CT is going to be the tipping point. Because I'm willing to bet that there are other elected Legislators in other states that have said the same thing.

I hope you are right. I hope in 2 weeks nothing has come of this.

As far as making compromises, I'm glad to hear that you have finally come to understand that they may be necessary. As far as "being how you start", starting with placing closing the loop-hole on the table (as I have already described) would be the smartest thing. Place on the table that which makes no real difference, but gives the anti-gunners a political win.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-19-2012 at 09:18..
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:17   #94
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You have zero proof of that.
You're right.

But I'm willing to bet I'm correct in that assumption.

Are you willing to bet against that assumption? Are you willing to state right now that there will be no anti-gun legislation?
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:18   #95
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Who are these A rated Republicans?
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:19   #96
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If you think that at this very moment, that there is any battle we could win, in any way, shape or form, you're absolutely friggin' high. The court of popular opinion has already ruled following the shootings in CT, and the recent spate of similar incidents.

We are are not facing off against our normal opponents, the same list of characters that support anti-gun legislation. We are facing an entire country of people emotionally over-reacting to these shootings, that are DEMANDING anti-gun legislation. They are calling and writting and e-mailing their elected officials every damn day, demanding that they do something, or they will be removed from office.
.
You're wrong. Most people are NOT advocating new gun laws & bans. Just the media and the usual crowd of antis. Sure a few turncoats are making a big show, but they were never really pro-gun anyway and are just using this as an excuse. How many people in your real-life daily interactions are calling for bans? I haven't seen ANY.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:19   #97
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You're right.

But I'm willing to bet I'm correct in that assumption.

Are you willing to bet against that assumption? Are you willing to state right now that there will be no anti-gun legislation?
Of course there will be anti-gun legislation. There always is.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:21   #98
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You have zero proof of that.
Something will happen, but I think it will be different than what has been in the media lately. If what I have read is true and Feinstein introduces the bill she has vaugely detailed at this point which would basically ban almost everything, it will never pass.

Gun manufacturers, the NRA, and other such companies and organizations have deep pockets, good attorneys, and well funded lobbyists. The bill's details that have just barely been outlined at this point would effectively kill the gun industry in the US.

Restrictions of some kind WILL definitely happen to pacify the angry mob, however it definitely won't be of the magnitude that some people think.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:22   #99
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Again, you think what is happening right now in the court of public opinion has anything to do with what has happened in the past.

When Columbine, VA Tech and the other shootings happened, the same every-day anti-gunners popped their heads up, railed against guns, and then got ignored. THe public wasn't as worked-up over what had happened.

That is NOT what is happeneing now, and you're missing this most important point.

You are not understanding the pressure that our elected officials are under to enact gun legislation. It's like NOTHING we have seen in the past. Killing 20 6 & 7 year olds has fundamentally changed things, dramatically raised the emotional reaction to new heights, and I fear we are going to get hammered.
What do you base all this nonsense on - CNN reports? Come on, show us some real evidence to back up all these claims.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:23   #100
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You're wrong. Most people are NOT advocating new gun laws & bans. Just the media and the usual crowd of antis. Sure a few turncoats are making a big show, but they were never really pro-gun anyway and are just using this as an excuse. How many people in your real-life daily interactions are calling for bans? I haven't seen ANY.
Quite a few, folks on FB. Actual adults that are calling thier elected officials. Hell, some family members and family friends.

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Of course there will be anti-gun legislation. There always is.
No, the last 10+ years have seen NO anti-gun legislation. Including every time someone has gone on a killing spree.

Hell, gun laws have been getting better and better over the last 10+ years, we all know that.
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