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Old 12-19-2012, 08:02   #51
G36's Rule
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
While your concept is well though out and logical it will not gain traction here as you are dealing with Zealots. It's ok though as they are in the minority.
Says the guy who voted for Obama and doesn't care about an assault weapons ban.

That is the company you are in M&P...
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:03   #52
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Criminals, of course, will not be so burdened.
You'd actually create a bunch of criminals out of folks who just aren't up to date with the new law or choose not to endure the hassle.

Civil Disobedience.

When guns our outlawed, Only outlaws will have guns.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:03   #53
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
While your concept is well though out and logical it will not gain traction here as you are dealing with Zealots. It's ok though as they are in the minority.
Clearly you aren't a 2nd amendment zealot. Congratulations. You are about to get the "reasonable restrictions" you voted for.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:03   #54
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Let me ask another way.

Has anyone every seen a private seller, with a table set-up inside a gunshow, selling firearms without NICS checks?
Yes, at every gun show I've attended. Not to mention guys walking around with guns and "for sale" placards. They're all just private citizens exercising their rights in a free society.

I'll add that some gunshow organizers actively discourage private sales at their shows, which is also their right.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:07   #55
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We have Fudds. Now we need a term for those among us who want to give the antis these little victories in hopes that they leave us alone.
I think the WWII term was Quisling...
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:08   #56
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Agreed, but your kind are the problem as been proven time and again.

The fight hasn't even begun and you have already thought of a way to give something up. AND you are too stupid to realize they will not stop there. Even though there is a lot of history to learn from.
You're completely wrong, and you can't see the forrest for the trees.

Hell, if we as firearms owners, working through the NRA, were REALLY SMART, would could even come out ahead in this game. We could close the "gun-show loop-hole" as I have suggested, but in return for our "compromise", the legislative folks need to get to crackin' on Nation-wide CCW, helping our brother and sisters in anti-gun states get their rights back.

Of course, you and others REFUSE to see this as a political game that must be played, so you want to stay off the field pouting and throwing tantrums, instead of getting on the field with a sound strategy and WINNING.

****, I sound like Charlie Sheen.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-19-2012 at 08:09..
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:08   #57
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Originally Posted by Henry's Dad View Post
What I've never understood is this:

At it's first sale at a dealer, a handgun must enter the stream of commerce through an FFL.

So who's the moron who registers the gun in his name and then later sells it privately without an official transfer?

Gun gets used in a crime, who does it get traced back to? Last owner of record, yes?

Even if a private transfer is technically legal, why would you want that liability hanging over your head?
There's no liability. The seller just informs the investigator that the gun was sold. If the seller has info he wants to share with the investigator he may do so, or he may say he doesn't recall any details. If the investigator has other evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the seller he can follow up on it.

Happens all the time.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:11   #58
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
You're completely wrong, and you can't see the forrest for the trees.

Hell, if we as firearms owners, working through the NRA, were REALLY SMART, would could even come out ahead in this game. We could close the "gun-show loop-hole" as I have suggested, but in return for our "compromise", the legislative folks need to get to crackin' on Nation-wide CCW, helping our brother and sisters in anti-gun states get their rights back.

Of course, you and others REFUSE to see this as a political game that must be played, so you want to stay off the field pouting and throwing tantrums, instead of getting on the field with a sound strategy and WINNING.

****, I sound like Charlie Sheen.
Like I said, the game hasn't begun yet. No players are on the field. Everyone is just talking smack right now...








And here is M&P, ready to forfeit!
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:11   #59
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Again, only at gun shows. Just pacify the anti-gunners.
M&P, I am seriously worried about you. I thought you believed in freedom. Freedom is absolute - it's not something you can bargain away to "pacify" people who want to take it away.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:14   #60
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
What part of "only at gun shows" is confusing you?
Again, if we (through the NRA) craft the legislation, we can make sure that FTF sales are not infringed upon.

The simple way to do this, is to force anyone that sets up a table inside a gun-show, to use 4473s and NICS. This will shut the idiots up.

It would NOT STOP folks from heading out to the parking lot (or driving a mile down the road) to do a FTF transaction, or infringe upon any other manner of FTF transaction.

This way the anti-gunners are satiated, and we still have lost nothing in our rights and freedoms.

Everyone else but us (through the NRA) is playing the political game. And we are may lose BIG, because we refuse to play them at their own game. It's all about political correctness, social agenda, and how we're viewed in the media. And we keep missing that.
I think a 10 day waiting period would pretty much kill gun shows -

The local shows I attend (Houston area) have dealers from all over Texas - almost always a few from Dallas & San Antonio.

Buy a gun from someone 250 miles away - have to wait 10 days - makes it hard to take delivery. I bet most dealers would say screw it - not worth it. You lose the dealers from out of the area - why bother.

I don't see myself meeting some guy for a FTF sale where -

I give him the cash - he holds the gun for 10 days - and then we meet up again so I can get the gun from him.

IMHO - a 10 day waiting period will crush gun shows & private FTF sales.


Last edited by Z71bill; 12-19-2012 at 08:26..
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:15   #61
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As I said, the organizers of gunshows can prohibit private sales on the premises if they want. And that's how it should be.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:16   #62
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Clearly you aren't a 2nd amendment zealot. Congratulations. You are about to get the "reasonable restrictions" you voted for.
No, YOU'RE about to let it happen, by assuming a "break but don't bend" attitude.

We as gun owners are at a very pivitol point, with a massive majority of folks in this country emotionally over-reacting to what happened in CT, and our very rights on the line. We may lose big-time, because we are refusing to do anything other than push back against everything.

It is at this very exact moment when we need to be playing the game of popular opinion in the media, and at least look like we are trying to join the population in trying to make a positive difference.

Again, gun owners are our own worst enemy, and I fear we could lose much, much more due to a "break but don't bend" ignorant ass attitude most folks here seem to have. If we give on something that really means nothing, have our say in crafting the legislation by working through the NRA (thereby keeping our own concerns first and foremost), we can keep our rights and freedoms, and look better in the light of overwhelmingly negative media attention on us.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:17   #63
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I think a 10 day waiting period would pretty much kill gun shows -

The local shows I attend (Houston area) have dealers from all over Texas - almost always a few from Dallas & San Antonio.

Buy a gun from someone 250 miles away - have to wait 10 days - makes it hard to take delivery. I bet most dealers would say screw it - not worth it. You lose the dealers from out of the area - why bother.

I don't see myself meeting some guy for a FTF sale where -

I give him the cash - he holds the gun for 10 days - and then we meet up again so I can get the guy.

IMHO - a 10 day waiting period will crush gun shows & private FTF sales.

Who the **** said anything about supporting a 10 day waiting period? Are you daft man?
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:24   #64
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
Let me ask another way.

Has anyone every seen a private seller, with a table set-up inside a gunshow, selling firearms without NICS checks?
Yes, in Jacksonville Fl. There were two gentlemen with card tables with a hand written sign reading "Private Seller" taped to the table. The guns they had were high end collectible types, a 44 automag, some old boxed Colt SAAs, and a couple of high dollar bolt action rifles.

I can't imagine some gangbanger shelling out 5 to 15 grand for the stuff they had for sale to rob and pillage
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Last edited by dbcooper; 12-19-2012 at 08:28..
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:26   #65
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M&P, I am seriously worried about you. I thought you believed in freedom. Freedom is absolute - it's not something you can bargain away to "pacify" people who want to take it away.
And hereine layeth the problem.

Freedom is absolutely NOT ABSOLUTE.

It requires a constant vigilance and sacrifice. It requires working hard and taking the initiative.

In short, it requires engaging in and working our political system hard. Which means knowing when to bend but not break, and how to craft legislation that LOOKS like we bend, but actually causes no harm to our.....cause.

But we as gun owners have dug our heels in, and absolutely refused to play the political game, which controls EVERYTHING in this country. And in doing so, we are driving the nails into our own coffins.

The NRA could work to close this non-existant loop-hole, in a manner which really does NOTHING, but give the anti-gunners a political win. And if we also ask for additional concessions from the other side which do MORE to help our cause (in exchange for closing the gun-show loop-hole), we could actually come out ahead in this game.

And if you don't think that we must give the anti-gunners a political win, you are sorely not understanding how things work in this country. Right now every elected official is getting letters and e-mails by the hundreds of thousands that demand their action, and threatening to remove them from office if they don't do something. Even NRA "A" rated conservative Republicans have already come out and said they will support some type of anti-gun legislation. That should clearly demonstrate how close we are to losing BIG TIME!

But this would require a level of political savy and understanding that most here seem to be completely devoid of. All I'm hearing is children pouting and chanting "NO! NO! NO!".

We are our own worst enemy.

Last edited by M&P15T; 12-19-2012 at 08:34..
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:27   #66
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A seller can setup a table of used Glocks or whatever and sell them to anyone without a background check.

This loophole should be closed and no law abiding gun owner should think otherwise. People that attain guns via this loophole and use them to commit crimes are endangering all our gun rights. Because apparently the right to bear arms is selective.
Long guns only! All handguns require a background check.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:31   #67
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
And hereine layeth the problem.

Freedom is absolutely NOT ABSOLUTE.

It requires a constant vigilance and sacrifice. It requires working hard and taking the initiative.

In short, it requires engaging in and working our political system hard. Which means knowing when to bend but not break, and how to craft legislation that LOOKS like we bend, but actually cause no harm to our.....cause.

But we as gun owners have dug our heels in, and absolutely refused to play the political game, which controls EVERYTHING in this country. And in doing so, we are driving the nails into our own coffins.

If the NRA could work to close this non-existant loop-hole, in a manner which really does NOTHING, but give the anti-gunners a political win. And if we also ask for additional concessions from the other side which do MORE to help our cause (in exchange for closing the gun-show loop-hole), we could actually come out ahead in this game.

But this would require a level of political savy and understanding that most here seem to be completely devoid of. All I'm hearing is a child pouting and chanting "NO! NO! NO!".

We are our own worst enemy.
Can you point to some examples where throwing the antis a bone resulted in an expansion of gun rights? They are a ratchet, like a boa constrictor tightening with your every exhalation.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:32   #68
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Long guns only! All handguns require a background check.
Not in GA.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:33   #69
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
But this would require a level of political savy and understanding that most here seem to be completely devoid of. All I'm hearing is a child pouting and chanting "NO! NO! NO!".

We are our own worst enemy.
No, we are not devoid of this "understanding" we have just seen it in action far more than you have. And we have watched guys like you compromise us too much. That has been the entire history of this battle since 1968.

Get over yourself. You are not the first to think he could control the fight without first showing you are willing to fight.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:33   #70
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Who the **** said anything about supporting a 10 day waiting period? Are you daft man?
You need to think of gun control from the anti's perspective - as a marathon not a sprint.

Sort of like the old -

How do you eat an elephant?

One bite at a time.

What happens after the next school shooting - and the next and the next and the next?

Some guy buys 5 revolvers and a box of ammo at 10:00 AM on Monday - shoots up a school at 10:10 AM the same day.

Then a 10 day waiting period AND a limit on 1 gun a year looks reasonable.

Nobody NEEDS a gun that fast - nobody needs 5 revolvers.

------------
Someone should ask the folks that are starting to cave in and agree to an AWB - & 10 round mag limit.

What happens if the next school shooting is 2 pump action shotguns, a revolver & a 1911 with five 8 round mags. You going to want to ban them too?

OF COURSE - the antis are not trying to close the gun show loop hole - they are trying to eliminate private gun ownership. Not reduce - not control - not regulate - BUT ELIMINATE.

If you can't understand that you have not been paying attention.

Last edited by Z71bill; 12-19-2012 at 08:37..
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:35   #71
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Long guns only! All handguns require a background check.
Depends on state law. In Texas, there is no anything for prison to person sales.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:36   #72
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You need to think of gun control as a marathon not a sprint.

Sort of like the old -

How do you eat an elephant?

One bite at a time.

What happens after the next school shooting - and the next and the next and the next?

Some guy buys 5 revolvers and a box of ammo at 10:00 AM on Monday - shoots up a school at 10:10 AM the same day.

Then a 10 day waiting period AND a limit on 1 gun a year looks reasonable.

Nobody NEEDS a gun that fast - nobody needs 5 revolvers.

------------
Someone should ask the folks that are starting to cave in and agree to an AWB - & 10 round mag limit.

What happens if the next school shooting is 2 pump action shotguns, a revolver & a 1911 with five 8 round mags. You going to want to ban them too?

OF COURSE -
No,no....

M&P is going to stop all that by compromising this one, more, time.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:38   #73
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Weeeeell.....

I gotta mull this new info over. I did not know that such things occured.

On the face of it, if for no other reason than to remove the "gun show loop-hole" phrase from the anti-gunners lexicon, it might be wise to consider shutting it down.

I get the "slippery slope", I understand that the private sales of firearms has had little to do with any of these shootings. Still, perhaps if we supported not allowing private sales at gun shows, we could shut them up a bit.

I don't know.......it's a double edged sword. We don't need anymore gun legislation. But then criminals are most certainly getting their guns that way.

Screw it, I saw close it. Folks can still do face-to-face transactions free of governmental interference. Just make all gun show participants use NICS and 4473s.

I do think as responsible gun owners, it is incumbant on us to help make sure that criminals have as hard a time as possible getting firearms.

Flame suit on.
You could require checks for all sales but there would be no way to enforce it among all gun owners without a full registration system. The guy at the gun show would have to comply, the guy selling out of is home to a friend or guy selling out of the trunk of his car in NYC or Chicago wouldn't. The only way to know if they had sold anything would be by registering all weapons and periodically checking to see if everyone still had all thier guns or after the fact when one was used by someone other than the origional buyer.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:38   #74
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I'm not reading every post in the thread to check, but if someone hasn't already pointed it out, the 'gun show loophole' isn't about gun shows. It's about eliminating private face-to-face sales completely. They say 'end the gun show loophole' but the effect will be that all gun sales will required to go through an FFL. That means FFL fees, NICS fees, and of course $ale$ tax. But more importantly, it gives the government oversight of all firearm transfers. Once they get that, they start selling the public on the next step (registration).
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:41   #75
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I'm not reading every post in the thread to check, but if someone hasn't already pointed it out, the 'gun show loophole' isn't about gun shows. It's about eliminating private face-to-face sales completely. They say 'end the gun show loophole' but the effect will be that all gun sales will required to go through an FFL. That means FFL fees, NICS fees, and of course $ale$ tax. But more importantly, it gives the government oversight of all firearm transfers. Once they get that, they start selling the public on the next step (registration).
+1

They need registration in order to meet the final goal - which is CONFISCATION.
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