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Old 12-11-2012, 20:57   #661
scottyd2506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee Dog View Post
Lets not forget that this is the best feeding caliber making it very,very reliable.
That is a good point. most of today's autos are reliable, but the 357 sig could use a huge hollow point and still feel I'll bet.

I've only owned a old 380 ACP (grandfathers I gave to uncle) a 1911 45 ACP that eventually was stolen back in 1987

And the two guns I have now. a 6 inch Lamma Super Comanche .44 mag (a copy of Smith 29) and a 2 shot 3 inch bll Derringer in .44 mag.


I have been wanting to get another auto-loader for some time. I have always been biased to the .45

But have since after much research, lean to the 9mm over .45 slightly less stopping power per shot, but much more rounds. Then the 40 looks good also.

I'm not biased, I get to start with what I want.


If a thief is in my house or garage and I hear them and go to investigate, you never know what they might do, some crooks will give up, others will run, but a lot of them would just as well kill you, as to leave no one to identify them.

If I'm out mushroom hunting and run into some portable meth lab, chances are they may want to get rid of the witness.

I do not want to have to kill someone, that is for sure.
But if I am forced to defend myself I want the attackers to be stopped, not pissed off and coming at me with a knife while I hold a empty smoking 9mm that had 17 rounds.

Nothing is a death ray no is anything 100% but the
125 grains in 35 caliber at 1450 fps has seemed to prove it self through time as the best chance.

Used to be it was the 357 magnum with 6 shots vs the 9mm with 18 shots and it was a close call. now we have the 357 sig with factory 125's at 1500 fps from 4 inch barrels and 16 shots




After the research of REAL world results, I chose the
Glock 32 357 Sig. I think for stopping power it edges out the 9 +p+ 40 S&W and 45 acp, esp with gold dots.

The 10mm might be better with 155's gold dots at 1500 fps for stopping power, but bigger heavier thicker frame guns and much more recoil..

The downside to the 357 sig is no one sells ammo for it where I live, we have gadr mnt and at least 30-40 other guns shop in the area, and no one carries any 357 sig guns or ammo. I called guns shops in Indianapolis (78 miles from me) and no one there that I called has the guns or ammo.
nor do they have any 10mm's.
Everyone seems to be satisfied with average, the 9-40-45 and nothing else exists.
I had to have a shop order my 357.

my friend used to love the 357 revolver Smith 19 and 686 from 20 years past , now he has 9mm and 40's. he's going to crap his pants when I come by with a 357 auto loader.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:15   #662
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Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
The 10mm might be better with 155's gold dots at 1500 fps for stopping power, but bigger heavier thicker frame guns and much more recoil..
Maybe Im just biased to the 10mm, but I think the 10mm is a pleasure to shoot (have shot everything from a Kimber, Colt Delta Elite, Eaa Elite Match, and a Glock 20 which I now own).
Had a chance to shoot both the .357 sig and a 10mm being fed Underwood 165gr during one range visit and IMHO the recoil wasnt that much different between the two.
The 10 has more of a .45 push whereas the 357 sig had more of a .40 muzzle flip.
Stories about the 10 having the recoil of a battleship is what kept me from it for so long and its just not true.
Your spot on about the ammo avail though.

Last edited by raven28690; 12-12-2012 at 11:44..
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:21   #663
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Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
T
But if I am forced to defend myself I want the attackers to be stopped, not pissed off and coming at me with a knife while I hold a empty smoking 9mm that had 17 rounds.
Shot placement. It's like the old real estate slogan, "Location, location, location." The .357SIG won't be any more effective or lethal if you don't hit vitals.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:35   #664
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The 125 grain .35ish cal bullets @ 1350+ seem to be excellent stoppers for sure. However, keep in mind the number of shootings that occur with 357 sig vs. 9mm, .40, or .45. What do you think the ratio of shootings would be comparing 9mm or .40 to 357 sig? I'm not sure there are a huge number of .45s in service but for .40 and 9mm there may be 20 shooting for every 357 sig shooting. Who knows? 20 to 1, 40 to 1, it's hard to say. If it were 20 to 1 you could expect twenty failures to stop for every one you would hear about with 357 sig. Just food for thought.

Remember also that other cartridges come in various bullet weights and power levels, low-recoil loads, ect. Some of which may not be a very good stopper. You can't hold it against the cartridges that have more variety, which may cause there to be some bad loads, while there could be some that work just as well or better than most in 357 sig. The 357 sig loads all have nearly the same external ballistic profile. It is a combination of caliber, mass , and velocity that works very well apparently as long as a proper bullet design is used.

Last edited by Scoob; 12-12-2012 at 08:52..
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Old 12-12-2012, 14:31   #665
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Originally Posted by digilo View Post
Shot placement. It's like the old real estate slogan, "Location, location, location." The .357SIG won't be any more effective or lethal if you don't hit vitals.

Shot placement is key, but how often does one get practice with a handgun and a target running at you bobbing up and down either shooting at you, or has a big knife.

This is all good at the range, but real life drama does not always have a man sitting perfectly still who wants you dead.

even the most perfect shot to the heart and the attacker may live for another 10 seconds to a minute even.
enough to pop 6 x 38's into your chest.

You can either take your time and get good shot placement or shoot fast and get a hit period.

We all can not get the perfect brain or spine shot to stop an attacker. non perfect shot require good expanding bullets than can penetrate and has high velocity.

The idea is not to get a heart shot and kill the person, it is to STOP them. the So called Lightning bolt effect of the 357 was the hydrostatic shock of breaking the sound barrier through a persons body or vital organs with a expanding bullet.

If they "calibers" are all the same and it is shot placement, then why did the Texas State Police complain the 9mm was not good enough after replacing the 6 shot 357 revolvers? how come even after they went with the 45 acp that was a slight improvement over the 9mm that they still did not have the effects on bad guys as the 357 magnum?

the load with a 125 at 1450 fps through a 4 inch bbl

it just could be that a expanding bullet traveling 1450 fps (a lot of cops had 6 inch 357's so 1500+ fps) with a 125 was enough to have the bullet go through/into the body of a BG at OVER the speed of sound.. sending a shockwave through body. and drop him quick.

a combination of a good expanding bullet and a sectional density of at least 1.40 and 1400+ fps (125 357 mag)was good enough to penetrate a BG go through the fat layers and muscle layer and still be super sonic into the organs.

the 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP can NOT the cake here



the ultra hot loaded 9mm.+P+ loads of a 115 at 1400 fps and a 124 at 1300 fps would seem like they would be close, the 10 grains less bullet weight slows down much faster through flesh, and thus by the time it reaches the organs it is subsonic, same for the 124 at 1300 no sonic crack or hydrostatic shock as with 100 fps less muz vel the bullets are just shy of super sonic as they enter the vitals.

This all of course depends on the size of the attacker.


The 40 S&W with the 155 has a sectional density of 1.40 but the hottest 40 load is 1300 fps wit the 155.

the .45 acp is worse for the hydrostatic shock, although it has massive caliber and even more massive with good expanding bullets that does the job well.

What we do know is in real life the 357 magnum worked VERY well compared to the other calibers.
The 125 357 load had a bullet Sectional density of 1.40 at 1450 fps and it worked Great.

There is not a 1.40 sectional density bullet load combo on the face of the planet that can get over 1400 fps from a 45 acp, 40 S&W or the hottest 9mm +p+. and 1300 fps is tops with a hot hot load.

(unless we are talking unpractical to carry long long barrels of 5.5 and 6 inch in autoloaders)


Yet the 357 Sig can launch a 125 bullet with a Sectional density bullet of 1.41 at 1500 fps from a 4 inch bbl with a Factory load. The 357 mag can get way more that 1450 fps from a 125, but that is what worked, why change it?

the 10mm can also launch 1.40 SD (155;s) bullets at 1400-1500 fps.with good expanding bullets..


I would not call the 357 sig worlds better than the 9 +p+, 40 SW and 45 acp just has a slight edge in stopping an attacker from getting to you. or if you hit him 1st to stop him from firing on you with his gun. The lightning bolt effect from what real police claim in teas is more than a myth.
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Old 12-12-2012, 14:57   #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
Shot placement is key, but how often does one get practice with a handgun and a target running at you bobbing up and down either shooting at you, or has a big knife.

This is all good at the range, but real life drama does not always have a man sitting perfectly still who wants you dead.

even the most perfect shot to the heart and the attacker may live for another 10 seconds to a minute even.
enough to pop 6 x 38's into your chest.

You can either take your time and get good shot placement or shoot fast and get a hit period.

We all can not get the perfect brain or spine shot to stop an attacker. non perfect shot require good expanding bullets than can penetrate and has high velocity.

The idea is not to get a heart shot and kill the person, it is to STOP them. the So called Lightning bolt effect of the 357 was the hydrostatic shock of breaking the sound barrier through a persons body or vital organs with a expanding bullet.
Lightning bolt, lol. Never heard the .357 called that. No such thing as hydrostatic shock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
If they "calibers" are all the same and it is shot placement, then why did the Texas State Police complain the 9mm was not good enough after replacing the 6 shot 357 revolvers?
The Texas Dept of Public Safety (DPS) went to .357 SIG as their penetration requirements are different than those for civilians, which may require them to shoot through auto glass. Rare is the situation where a civilian will have to shoot through auto glass.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
how come even after they went with the 45 acp that was a slight improvement over the 9mm that they still did not have the effects on bad guys as the 357 magnum?
Bullet development was minimal for autos until the law enforcement agencies started adopting them. It took time for bullet development caught up to the needs of LEOs. Now I know of ZERO LEO agencies that prefer .357 Magnum revolvers to 9mm or .45 autos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
it just could be that a expanding bullet traveling 1450 fps (a lot of cops had 6 inch 357's so 1500+ fps) with a 125 was enough to have the bullet go through/into the body of a BG at OVER the speed of sound.. sending a shockwave through body. and drop him quick.
Again, no such thing as hydrostatic shock. There's many stories of felons surviving COM shots with .357 Mag shots. It isn't a magic caliber. Neither is .357SIG.

Lightning bolts and hydrostatic shock and shockwaves , lol.

It's all about where you shoot them. Take the time at the range to learn to hit what you're aiming at. No bullet is going to stop an attacker if you don't hit a vital, I don't care how much velocity you give it, or what SD the bullet has.

Shot. Placement.

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Last edited by digilo; 12-12-2012 at 14:59..
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Old 12-12-2012, 16:07   #667
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Originally Posted by digilo View Post
There's many stories of felons surviving COM shots with .357 Mag shots. It isn't a magic caliber. Neither is .357SIG.
You're right, but if there is/was a better handgun caliber than the .357 Magnum for stopping deadly encounters I haven't read about it.
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Old 12-12-2012, 19:43   #668
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Lightning bolt, lol. Never heard the .357 called that. No such thing as hydrostatic shock.
What do you call it then? Why is it the the Texas and many other state police have like a 99_100% success rate with the 357 sig, the gun has been used since 1994, almost 20 years.. I'm sure it has racked up more than 50-100 shootings. yet agencies one after the other have issues with the 9mm to stop the BG.. WHOLE magazine of 9mm dumped into the bad guy and they keep coming yet almost 20 years of service with the 357 sig and hardly any failures at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by digilo View Post
The Texas Dept of Public Safety (DPS) went to .357 SIG as their penetration requirements are different than those for civilians, which may require them to shoot through auto glass. Rare is the situation where a civilian will have to shoot through auto glass.
That is the same ol excuse Every 9mm fan boy has. There is nothing wrong with the 9mm but face the facts it does not have equal stopping power as the stop handgun rounds.
it is much better than 38 special and holds a lot of rounds

You can try and play it off like the 9mm is just as good as the 357 sig or 357 mag per round at stopping someone and claim LOE only reason to use it is to shoot through auto glass.
READ UP DUDE, the Texas State Police (DPS) did not pick the 357 sig because it shot through glass better, it was picked because the 9mm failed and the 45 the replaced the 9 was not as good as the 357 mag per round.
Yes the extra 200 fps does aid in shooting through auto glass. But those kind of scenarios are once in a blue moon that they need to shoot through a windshield.
The reason they chose it was it put down the BG more often that the weaker 9mm+p+

The 357 sig is not the best choice for shooting through windshields anyways the light 125's need a perfect angle to do the work.



Quote:
Originally Posted by digilo View Post
Bullet development was minimal for autos until the law enforcement agencies started adopting them. It took time for bullet development caught up to the needs of LEOs. Now I know of ZERO LEO agencies that prefer .357 Magnum revolvers to 9mm or .45 autos.
No one said they prefer the 357 magnum to 9mm, but they did say that they missed the stopping power of the 357.

The lightning bolt effect is something the police made up referring to how fast people went down with the 357 magnum.
it is a FACT the failure of the 9mm in the Texas DPS and how they now love the 357 sig. Dont take my word for it ask them why they prefer it head and shoulders over the 9mm (except for cost of ammo.)

Ask the Secret Service why they have a gun that hold 2 less rounds than a 9mm (357 sig) over a 9mm IF shot placement meant EVERYTHING and caliber means nothing.They would have the gun with 2 more rounds if your mindset was reality. I guess those Sevret Service people are dumb morons who don't know their a-hole fro ma hole in the ground huh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by digilo View Post
It's all about where you shoot them. Take the time at the range to learn to hit what you're aiming at. No bullet is going to stop an attacker if you don't hit a vital, I don't care how much velocity you give it, or what SD the bullet has. .
So you are trying to tell us a 25 acp is just as good as a 357 magnum? I mean if shot placement is everything.
You have spent too much time at the range, because in a real gun fight, targets move around and they shoot back. and most of the time that perfect shot you talk about is not going to happen.


I guess if you base your statistics off old spaghetti westerns where Clint can down 4-5 guys with perfect shots, then your the man.

Can I ask why you would carry a 9mm over a 380 if shot placement was the deciding factor etc?
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Old 12-15-2012, 14:14   #669
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You're right, but if there is/was a better handgun caliber than the .357 Magnum for stopping deadly encounters I haven't read about it.
So true, the .357 Magnum 125gr SJHP has been the king for 40 years.
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Old 12-15-2012, 20:20   #670
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So true, the .357 Magnum 125gr SJHP has been the king for 40 years.
True, Even Marshal lists the 357 magnum and 45 acp as the tops rounds. both have 2 different bullets that have one shot stops of 96%
Yet Marshal list the 9mm best load at 91% and then puts the Federal 125 357 sig as the best 357 sig load at 92%. a mediocore load.

Yet Why doesn't Marshal list any of the loads the police have been having success with, the Speer gold dots?

Does not the Texas DPS police have like a 100% success rate with this load, and Delaware has 99%..

Yet Marshal completely ignores this data. I have heard "well it's a new caliber and data will take awhile to gather, yet the Texas DPS police has been using this bullet load for almost "20 years".. -1994-
is this caliber and load so good that he is biased against the 357 sig, compared to what he carries and spent his $$ on already.

take care
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Old 12-15-2012, 20:55   #671
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WHOLE magazine of 9mm dumped into the bad guy and they keep coming

There is nothing wrong with the 9mm
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Old 12-15-2012, 22:04   #672
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Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
True, Even Marshal lists the 357 magnum and 45 acp as the tops rounds. both have 2 different bullets that have one shot stops of 96%
To be fair, they did list the 135gr .40 at 96% also, with it's poor sectional density and all. Several other .40's at 94%.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:56   #673
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To be fair, they did list the 135gr .40 at 96% also, with it's poor sectional density and all. Several other .40's at 94%.
that is a great number. I can believe it if one load of 40 can get 94% then another could get 96%.

I just wonder why the Gold dot loads of the Texas DPS (state police) from te past 20 yeears have been totally ignored by the even marshal study . I know they have a 100% success rate there. Those loads are the weaker speer 125 at 1350 fps from 4 inch bbl 1400 fps from the longer service 4.5 inch bbls. It is like he is totally pi$$ed off the 357 sig out does his handgun rounds and is hiding or bypassing the stats.
I can now see why many people have doubts about his/their studies These caliber and loads have been used by the Texas DPS for almost 20 years. so the excuse of not enough info, isn't going to cut the cake either.

later



I know no ammo is going to be 100% in any caliber. esp handgun, but those actual statistics can not be ignored.
It is quite possible they might be 97-98% one shot stoppers.

Those underwood 9mm +p+ 124's at over 1300 fps should raise the bar on the 9mm. some people are getting 1350 fps out of glock 17's and it very close to the magical 1400-1450 fps of the legendary 125 357 magnum
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:10   #674
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WHOLE magazine of 9mm dumped into the bad guy and they keep coming

There is nothing wrong with the 9mm
the 9mm is a good round, but there are better calibers.
the 9 owners who think once you hit 9mm power it doesn't get any better. 1150-1300 fps with a 124 is good, but not near as proven as 1350-1500 fps with the 125.
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:48   #675
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Originally Posted by scottyd2506 View Post
True, Even Marshal lists the 357 magnum and 45 acp as the tops rounds. both have 2 different bullets that have one shot stops of 96%
Yet Marshal list the 9mm best load at 91% and then puts the Federal 125 357 sig as the best 357 sig load at 92%. a mediocore load.

Yet Why doesn't Marshal list any of the loads the police have been having success with, the Speer gold dots?

Does not the Texas DPS police have like a 100% success rate with this load, and Delaware has 99%..

Yet Marshal completely ignores this data. I have heard "well it's a new caliber and data will take awhile to gather, yet the Texas DPS police has been using this bullet load for almost "20 years".. -1994-
is this caliber and load so good that he is biased against the 357 sig, compared to what he carries and spent his $$ on already.

take care
Evan isn't biased against the .357. As a matter of fact, he carries the .357 presently. See stoppingpower.net.

He isn't collecting data anymore.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:38   #676
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Marshall's last book was a while back, so the number of 357 SIG cases available for study were probably more limited when he submitted his book for publication.
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:32   #677
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Shot placement is key, but how often does one get practice with a handgun and a target running at you bobbing up and down either shooting at you, or has a big knife.

This is all good at the range, but real life drama does not always have a man sitting perfectly still who wants you dead.

even the most perfect shot to the heart and the attacker may live for another 10 seconds to a minute even.
enough to pop 6 x 38's into your chest.

You can either take your time and get good shot placement or shoot fast and get a hit period.

We all can not get the perfect brain or spine shot to stop an attacker. non perfect shot require good expanding bullets than can penetrate and has high velocity.

The idea is not to get a heart shot and kill the person, it is to STOP them. the So called Lightning bolt effect of the 357 was the hydrostatic shock of breaking the sound barrier through a persons body or vital organs with a expanding bullet.

If they "calibers" are all the same and it is shot placement, then why did the Texas State Police complain the 9mm was not good enough after replacing the 6 shot 357 revolvers? how come even after they went with the 45 acp that was a slight improvement over the 9mm that they still did not have the effects on bad guys as the 357 magnum?

the load with a 125 at 1450 fps through a 4 inch bbl

it just could be that a expanding bullet traveling 1450 fps (a lot of cops had 6 inch 357's so 1500+ fps) with a 125 was enough to have the bullet go through/into the body of a BG at OVER the speed of sound.. sending a shockwave through body. and drop him quick.

a combination of a good expanding bullet and a sectional density of at least 1.40 and 1400+ fps (125 357 mag)was good enough to penetrate a BG go through the fat layers and muscle layer and still be super sonic into the organs.

the 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP can NOT the cake here



the ultra hot loaded 9mm.+P+ loads of a 115 at 1400 fps and a 124 at 1300 fps would seem like they would be close, the 10 grains less bullet weight slows down much faster through flesh, and thus by the time it reaches the organs it is subsonic, same for the 124 at 1300 no sonic crack or hydrostatic shock as with 100 fps less muz vel the bullets are just shy of super sonic as they enter the vitals.

This all of course depends on the size of the attacker.


The 40 S&W with the 155 has a sectional density of 1.40 but the hottest 40 load is 1300 fps wit the 155.

the .45 acp is worse for the hydrostatic shock, although it has massive caliber and even more massive with good expanding bullets that does the job well.

What we do know is in real life the 357 magnum worked VERY well compared to the other calibers.
The 125 357 load had a bullet Sectional density of 1.40 at 1450 fps and it worked Great.

There is not a 1.40 sectional density bullet load combo on the face of the planet that can get over 1400 fps from a 45 acp, 40 S&W or the hottest 9mm +p+. and 1300 fps is tops with a hot hot load.

(unless we are talking unpractical to carry long long barrels of 5.5 and 6 inch in autoloaders)


Yet the 357 Sig can launch a 125 bullet with a Sectional density bullet of 1.41 at 1500 fps from a 4 inch bbl with a Factory load. The 357 mag can get way more that 1450 fps from a 125, but that is what worked, why change it?

the 10mm can also launch 1.40 SD (155;s) bullets at 1400-1500 fps.with good expanding bullets..


I would not call the 357 sig worlds better than the 9 +p+, 40 SW and 45 acp just has a slight edge in stopping an attacker from getting to you. or if you hit him 1st to stop him from firing on you with his gun. The lightning bolt effect from what real police claim in teas is more than a myth.

My friend the hottest load for 40 caliber is Underwood
135gr.jph ammo. Here are the stats-


Technical Information
• Caliber: 40 S&W
• Bullet Weight: 135 Grains
• Bullet Style: Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point
• Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:

• Muzzle Velocity: 1500 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 675 ft. lbs

The owner of Underwood Ammo -Kevin stated to me that
the above specs. were shot from a 4 inch barrel handgun.
Any questions you may have call Underwood at-
304-744-2109.



P.S. Its possible that this ammo traveling at 1500fps would hit the target extremely hard would also having a shock effect.
South Bend, Indianna have used Corbons 135 gr jhp @ 1325fps with
dramatic effects. Now lets pump up that muzzle velocity
by an extra 200fps and you got one haymaker of a punch.

Last edited by Coffee Dog; 12-16-2012 at 09:42..
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:22   #678
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...........

P.S. Its possible that this ammo traveling at 1500fps would hit the target extremely hard would also having a shock effect.
South Bend, Indianna have used Corbons 135 gr jhp @ 1325fps with dramatic effects. Now lets pump up that muzzle velocity
by an extra 200fps and you got one haymaker of a punch.
That is, only if the engineers who designed and tested that bullet planned for it to perform properly at 200 FPS extra.

Does the Underwood ammo meet the "FBI" test criteria without raising problems in real world shootability in difficult circumstances or affecting the reliability of the current handguns?
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:58   #679
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I trust CorBon ammunition completely.
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Old 12-16-2012, 18:58   #680
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Originally Posted by Coffee Dog View Post
My friend the hottest load for 40 caliber is Underwood
135gr.jph ammo. Here are the stats-


Technical Information
• Caliber: 40 S&W
• Bullet Weight: 135 Grains
• Bullet Style: Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point
• Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:

• Muzzle Velocity: 1500 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 675 ft. lbs

The owner of Underwood Ammo -Kevin stated to me that
the above specs. were shot from a 4 inch barrel handgun.
Any questions you may have call Underwood at-
304-744-2109.



P.S. Its possible that this ammo traveling at 1500fps would hit the target extremely hard would also having a shock effect.
South Bend, Indianna have used Corbons 135 gr jhp @ 1325fps with
dramatic effects. Now lets pump up that muzzle velocity
by an extra 200fps and you got one haymaker of a punch.

maybe so but that 135 in a 40 cal is has a sectional density of like 1.21. it is going to slow down like a parachute, once it hits the fat layers and muscle the bullet will likely be sub sonic through the vital organs. esp a larger built BG.

going super sonic through the vital organs like the 357 does seems to be key in the police saying of "lightning bolt effect" I'm sure it would kill as good or better ,but we want the extra shock to STOP the attacker

The 357 sig can launch a bullet with a sectional density of 1.41 at 1500 fps from a 4 inch bbl. with that kind of sectional density the bullet does not slow down much as it penetrates probably going 1200 fps through vital organs.

The 9mm 45 and 40 can NOT do this. I'm sure a skinny bad guy it might, but some of those 260-350 lb attackers have extra layers to go through and the Sig seems to be able to break the sound barrier inside of the BG vitals.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42