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Old 12-14-2012, 03:27   #26
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We need to meet up dude.
Agreed, what shift are you on now?
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:54   #27
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Crappy swings.

I have Tues through Thurs off.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:35   #28
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:00   #29
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Around here that is passe, shoot till neutralized is what is trained now....
A detective in my dept shot a knife-wielding guy under the old '2 and assess' approach, and the perp, hit both times, kept coming.

Today he espouses 'shoot until the threat stops.'




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Old 12-14-2012, 08:13   #30
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Quote:
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We need to meet up dude.
Swing by here first and get me.
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I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:01   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by series1811 View Post
The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
That's sig-line worthy, and will be stolen momentarily!
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:15   #32
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Looks like a good shoot to me. +1 on Beck being a whackjob d-bag half a rung down the crazy ladder from Alex Jones.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:20   #33
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4.2 seconds is a moot point. It could have been 2 seconds or 10 seconds, it does not matter. You are either justified or not justified to use deadly force to protect yourself or others.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:16   #34
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Crappy swings.

I have Tues through Thurs off.
fair enough, we'll work something out.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:19   #35
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
I nominate this for a sticky!
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Old 12-14-2012, 13:48   #36
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Crappy swings.

I have Tues through Thurs off.
crappy shift with crappy days off. Someone loved you.
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Old 12-14-2012, 13:49   #37
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4.2 seconds is a moot point. It could have been 2 seconds or 10 seconds, it does not matter. You are either justified or not justified to use deadly force to protect yourself or others.
Only until the threat has stopped. Some spiffy lawyer will find some crafty way to make a jury think that 4.2 seconds is long enough to draft a presidential address, let alone long enough to determine if a threat is over.

As far as I'm concerned, 4.2 seconds is just long enough to engage and [B]begin[/B ]to assess a threat in a dynamic situation. Lets not forget that there are multiple stimuli and potential threats.
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Old 12-14-2012, 14:28   #38
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I suspect expert witnesses may play a part in this one.
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Old 12-14-2012, 16:30   #39
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13 shots in 4.2 seconds? Not bad. We sometimes do timed dirlls at the range head to head who can hit plates accurately for time. It is not outside the realm of reason.
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Old 12-14-2012, 17:02   #40
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Originally Posted by Ducowti View Post
A detective in my dept shot a knife-wielding guy under the old '2 and assess' approach, and the perp, hit both times, kept coming.

Today he espouses 'shoot until the threat stops.'




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Are his initials R.B.?

The only time I ever heard about "3 shots and reassess" was after the Sean Bell incident, where Popeye said that was how cops were trained.
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Old 12-14-2012, 18:48   #41
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13 rounds in a 4.2 seconds? Inefficient! The German MG-42 is nearly 7 times faster per second.

P.S. Beck is an alcoholic and a drug abuser. Two groups who are considered inimical to LE. He is embraces only certain aspects of classic liberalism and fails to comprehend the 'social contract' as postulated by Hobbes. As to being a d-bag... I'd throat punch him.
Ah Beck has been sober for a number of years.......
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Old 12-14-2012, 19:21   #42
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13 rounds in a 4.2 seconds? Inefficient! The German MG-42 is nearly 7 times faster per second.

P.S. Beck is an alcoholic and a drug abuser. Two groups who are considered inimical to LE. He is embraces only certain aspects of classic liberalism and fails to comprehend the 'social contract' as postulated by Hobbes. As to being a d-bag... I'd throat punch him.
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Glenn Beck - LEAVE THE COPS ALONE! - YouTube

Sent from the Titanic. I named my phone "The Titanic" so when I plug it into the computer it says "The Titanic is syncing".
Seems Glenn supports law enforcement.......
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Old 12-14-2012, 19:23   #43
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 12-14-2012, 19:29   #44
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I guess the "family man" shouldn't have tried to gut someone else's patriarch.
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Old 12-14-2012, 21:40   #45
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The first shot may include morality in the decision but it sure is a tactical decision first and foremost.
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I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
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Old 12-14-2012, 21:59   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducowti View Post
A detective in my dept shot a knife-wielding guy under the old '2 and assess' approach, and the perp, hit both times, kept coming.

Today he espouses 'shoot until the threat stops.'




Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
That is how I got the nickname "killer" in my last lengthy academy. If it didn't go stop, it was going down in a hail of sim rounds, with reloads as necessary.

I remember a discussion about the "no win" scenarios they create. "Don't give him that one, he'll kill everyone."

I just treated it like the real world. If they came with a gun or a knife, until they stopped being a threat, I didn't stop pulling the trigger. When they went down and stayed down, that is when I let up.

Sim rounds hurt btw. Especially if hit in the "not so funny" bone. I would get goose bumps years later just thinking about it. It is basically just a 9mm plasic projectile with a dry paint/dye in the center. I caught that one, when we were give firearms with blanks and had to be our own role players for our class in a shoot house. The guy didn't do so well in that scenario. I had a laminate fake badge to show I was a friendly. He shot it, and my funny bone.

I shot back with what they gave me, a revolver with blanks. I wasn't dead yet, just hurting. Just because you're shot doesn't mean you're dead.

I was in an academy with street hires, who were afraid to get hands on. We had instructors from every agency, local and otherwise. When they gave me a role player that came up and threatened someone I was dealing with, and he didn't listen and got bounced against his car, handcuffed and a .38 pulled from his waistband the evaluator said, "You've done this before, haven't you? Who were you with?"

I called it "Disneyland" on a budget.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:49   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by series1811 View Post
The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.

For me, this is a yes and no thing. I have seen people shot where the decision by the shooter was not so much a decision, as it was reflexive action,

and I have seen people shot where there was enough time by the shooter to go thru the motions you describe.


Unless I am mistaking what you mean.
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:13   #48
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For me, this is a yes and no thing. I have seen people shot where the decision by the shooter was not so much a decision, as it was reflexive action,

and I have seen people shot where there was enough time by the shooter to go thru the motions you describe.


Unless I am mistaking what you mean.
This is my opinion as well.
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Old 12-18-2012, 16:21   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post

I was in an academy with street hires, who were afraid to get hands on. We had instructors from every agency, local and otherwise. When they gave me a role player that came up and threatened someone I was dealing with, and he didn't listen and got bounced against his car, handcuffed and a .38 pulled from his waistband the evaluator said, "You've done this before, haven't you? Who were you with?"

A certain guy I went to the academy with had some kind of scenario like that. He thumped the third party and put him on the ground, then planted a blue gun borrowed from another recruit on him before the incident was over.
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Old 12-18-2012, 17:18   #50
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
That is how I got the nickname "killer" in my last lengthy academy. If it didn't go stop, it was going down in a hail of sim rounds, with reloads as necessary.

I remember a discussion about the "no win" scenarios they create. "Don't give him that one, he'll kill everyone."

I just treated it like the real world. If they came with a gun or a knife, until they stopped being a threat, I didn't stop pulling the trigger. When they went down and stayed down, that is when I let up.

Sim rounds hurt btw. Especially if hit in the "not so funny" bone. I would get goose bumps years later just thinking about it. It is basically just a 9mm plasic projectile with a dry paint/dye in the center. I caught that one, when we were give firearms with blanks and had to be our own role players for our class in a shoot house. The guy didn't do so well in that scenario. I had a laminate fake badge to show I was a friendly. He shot it, and my funny bone.

I shot back with what they gave me, a revolver with blanks. I wasn't dead yet, just hurting. Just because you're shot doesn't mean you're dead.

I was in an academy with street hires, who were afraid to get hands on. We had instructors from every agency, local and otherwise. When they gave me a role player that came up and threatened someone I was dealing with, and he didn't listen and got bounced against his car, handcuffed and a .38 pulled from his waistband the evaluator said, "You've done this before, haven't you? Who were you with?"

I called it "Disneyland" on a budget.
Good man!
So many go to training and dont take it seriously. I would go in a school with you.
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