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Old 12-11-2012, 20:26   #226
Ruggles
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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
Actually it appears that ~ 3.8% of the population of Massachusetts has a carry permit while ~2% of the population of Texas has a permit. Unless my math is off.


http://legallyarmed.com/ccw_statistics.htm
Not sure about that, could be true. Of course in Texas you can now carry a handgun inside your car/truck without a CHL. That is enough for some folks I think. It would thus lessen the number of those seeking CHL.

Either way No way are the gun laws in Mass as open/free as they are in Texas. Sad really as both states have rich history when it comes to firearms. Something just wrong with Mass being so anti gun IMO.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:10   #227
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Originally Posted by Henry's Dad View Post
But which of these can you keep and bear (carry on or about one's person)?

Scalia - right to bear arms not absolute - YouTube
Exactly, if you can carry it, generally it should be covered in the second amendment. And since what the colonists carried was equivalent to the military then, then it stands to reasonable minds that ARs and AKs (non automatic) should be available for US citizens. Note I prefer the SKS now, but that is just me.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:18   #228
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Exactly, if you can carry it, generally it should be covered in the second amendment. And since what the colonists carried was equivalent to the military then, then it stands to reasonable minds that ARs and AKs (non automatic) should be available for US citizens. Note I prefer the SKS now, but that is just me.
Why? Machine guns are fun to shoot.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:05   #229
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Let's be realistic here for a moment. Do I think the founding fathers ever imagined that we would have the weaponry that we have today...of course not. Do I think their idea of keeping and bearing arms included RPGs, Claymores, and Browning M2's...of course not. Also, do I think the normal idiots I see on a daily basis should have access to any of these...no, because YouTube would be littered with videos of people blowing up everything from trash to houses to probably even animals if not blowing themselves up (on accident). As usual, the few that abuse it ruin it for the many. Now, with that being said, I think there is nothing wrong with legalizing it and just making it either a pain in the butt to get or just let cost weed out the idiots. As stated in an earlier post, your average Walmart junkie cannot afford an RPG, Claymore, or an M2. IF they could afford an M2, you certainly couldn't afford to run it at $2+ a round. Heck, monster trucks are legal and so are dragsters but you don't see people rolling around town in them because the average run of the mill joe can't afford it.

So lets look at who can afford it...in my opinion there are two kinds of people with money. Those that earned it legally and those that earned it illegally. Those that earn enough money to own and operate full auto weapons and explosives and tanks and whatever are probably responsible enough to have them, because they obviously were responsible enough to be in a job or own a business that can support it. Those that make that same money illegally really don't care about the law and those are the criminals that own a lot of these weapons illegally now anyway. Once again, you are just limiting the honest people.

Believe me, if you legalized all this foolishness tomorrow, I might be able to buy a few auto firearms, I might be able to even swing an M2...but what good is it in my shop if I can never afford to run it at the range. I just wouldn't own one. I think like everything else, you make it monetarily unattractive for the average Walmart person to own. If you want a monster truck, that's cool...enjoy that tax bill every year. If you want a tank...enjoy that's sales tax on $250,000. If you want any weapon that the military has...enjoy that price tag and the tax you are going to pay when you shell out full price and tax for one of those. I just think it would not be as big of a deal as the lawmakers are making it out to be.

Also, and this maybe unpopular here, but I am ok with the steps to own a Class 3 weapon. It further weeds out the people that want them for no good. Who wants to fill out paperwork and pay an additional $200 to Uncle Sam THEN wait 4-6 months on the paperwork to own just one. Only law abiding citizens. Again, if you are a gang banger, you won't be going to all that trouble to obtain one legally when you want to knock off a store or a person. It is cost prohibitive. So once again, all you are doing is limiting the honest person. Ok...rant over.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:21   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilotdude3407 View Post
Let's be realistic here for a moment. Do I think the founding fathers ever imagined that we would have the weaponry that we have today...of course not. Do I think their idea of keeping and bearing arms included RPGs, Claymores, and Browning M2's...of course not. Also, do I think the normal idiots I see on a daily basis should have access to any of these...no, because YouTube would be littered with videos of people blowing up everything from trash to houses to probably even animals if not blowing themselves up (on accident). As usual, the few that abuse it ruin it for the many. Now, with that being said, I think there is nothing wrong with legalizing it and just making it either a pain in the butt to get or just let cost weed out the idiots. As stated in an earlier post, your average Walmart junkie cannot afford an RPG, Claymore, or an M2. IF they could afford an M2, you certainly couldn't afford to run it at $2+ a round. Heck, monster trucks are legal and so are dragsters but you don't see people rolling around town in them because the average run of the mill joe can't afford it.

So lets look at who can afford it...in my opinion there are two kinds of people with money. Those that earned it legally and those that earned it illegally. Those that earn enough money to own and operate full auto weapons and explosives and tanks and whatever are probably responsible enough to have them, because they obviously were responsible enough to be in a job or own a business that can support it. Those that make that same money illegally really don't care about the law and those are the criminals that own a lot of these weapons illegally now anyway. Once again, you are just limiting the honest people.

Believe me, if you legalized all this foolishness tomorrow, I might be able to buy a few auto firearms, I might be able to even swing an M2...but what good is it in my shop if I can never afford to run it at the range. I just wouldn't own one. I think like everything else, you make it monetarily unattractive for the average Walmart person to own. If you want a monster truck, that's cool...enjoy that tax bill every year. If you want a tank...enjoy that's sales tax on $250,000. If you want any weapon that the military has...enjoy that price tag and the tax you are going to pay when you shell out full price and tax for one of those. I just think it would not be as big of a deal as the lawmakers are making it out to be.

Also, and this maybe unpopular here, but I am ok with the steps to own a Class 3 weapon. It further weeds out the people that want them for no good. Who wants to fill out paperwork and pay an additional $200 to Uncle Sam THEN wait 4-6 months on the paperwork to own just one. Only law abiding citizens. Again, if you are a gang banger, you won't be going to all that trouble to obtain one legally when you want to knock off a store or a person. It is cost prohibitive. So once again, all you are doing is limiting the honest person. Ok...rant over.
Wow, could've sworn this was written by someone from "The Brady Campaign"

If we put the same regulations and laws on other "dangerous to society" things, how would you feel? Let's say boats: You can't have a boat with more than 5hp, anything else you have to have a special license for because there'd be too much havoc on the water.

Swimming pools kill far more people, especially children, than anyone has with a gun, should we put special licenses and taxes on those, as well as hot tubs? Poor people shouldn't own pools, they're dangerous. Only people who can afford to be responsible should have them.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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Old 12-12-2012, 04:23   #231
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
Wow, could've sworn this was written by someone from "The Brady Campaign"


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Old 12-12-2012, 04:41   #232
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Originally Posted by Pilotdude3407 View Post
Let's be realistic here for a moment. Do I think the founding fathers ever imagined that we would have the weaponry that we have today...of course not. Do I think their idea of keeping and bearing arms included RPGs, Claymores, and Browning M2's...of course not.
They had free access to the 18the century equivalents.

Quote:
Also, do I think the normal idiots I see on a daily basis should have access to any of these...no, because YouTube would be littered with videos of people blowing up everything from trash to houses to probably even animals if not blowing themselves up (on accident).
If we are going to use the "idiot test" then we should just abandon the Constitution, and simply ban people from things they are too "dumb" to handle. I guess that would decrease the populous exponentially when the folks that need to read caution lables on simple items died out by attrition.

On that note we may as well deny stupid people the right to voe (look where that has gotten us). We should deny stupid people driver's licenses so they can't injure themselves or others with 5 ton weapons that hurtle down the from at 85 plus miles per hour.

There are already a whole group of stupid people that already own firearms. I have met many. Loading the wrong ammo in a weapon, inserting magazines backwards, causually waving around a loaded weapon like it is a ciagrette. I could go on.

Which constitutional guarantees should we arbitrarily strip from the stupid? I am sure we can think of more than just the 2A.

Quote:
As usual, the few that abuse it ruin it for the many. Now, with that being said, I think there is nothing wrong with legalizing it and just making it either a pain in the butt to get or just let cost weed out the idiots.
The idiots already have them. They are called criminals, and laws mean nothing to them. Go to Peurto Rico, it is not uncommon for neighborhoods to already have these prohibited NFA items including RPG's. But, they belong to the criminal element that holds its populous capitve and the police don't dare venture in to do anything about it. They are outgunned.

I had a friend that worked and lived there. He said on a quiet night from his high rise he could watch and listen to the automatic fire and explosions going on. So, what I am hearing is that the regular folk can't be trusted with what the criminal element already have at their personal disposal.

Quote:
As stated in an earlier post, your average Walmart junkie cannot afford an RPG, Claymore, or an M2. IF they could afford an M2, you certainly couldn't afford to run it at $2+ a round. Heck, monster trucks are legal and so are dragsters but you don't see people rolling around town in them because the average run of the mill joe can't afford it.
These NFA weapons aren't affordable beause they have been made purposely expensive for those that actually want to obey the law. Now, if you are a Crip or a Blood on the West Coast, you simply have your full auto AK's smuggled in from China. They have them. You don't. Seems unablanced, don't you think? I have yet to meet a smart gang member of any gang. So, now you have supid criminals with NFA weapons, and law abiding citizens who can't possibly afford the legal ones that Congress infringed upon in the 1980's.

Quote:
So lets look at who can afford it...in my opinion there are two kinds of people with money. Those that earned it legally and those that earned it illegally. Those that earn enough money to own and operate full auto weapons and explosives and tanks and whatever are probably responsible enough to have them,
So, only trust fund weirdos like Ralph Lauren the rapist should own them? I guess they are the only people who should be able to vote too? The reason these weapons are expensive is because the 2A was infringed upon to make them rare. When there are few items, the market makes them more expensive.

Quote:
because they obviously were responsible enough to be in a job or own a business that can support it. Those that make that same money illegally really don't care about the law and those are the criminals that own a lot of these weapons illegally now anyway. Once again, you are just limiting the honest people.
Yes, because regular middle class folks can't be trusted to tie their own shoes? There are plenty of honest middl class people who can't pay for an NFA firearm what it would cost to buy a new car. Again, because the 2A was infringed upon making them cost prohibitive to anyone but the wealthy elite, and the criminal class who steal them, modify prexisting ones, or have them smuggled into the country.

Quote:
Believe me, if you legalized all this foolishness tomorrow,
Look at your stryrophome coffee cup some time and read the warning lable. Foolishness has been legal for a long time now.

Quote:
I might be able to buy a few auto firearms, I might be able to even swing an M2...but what good is it in my shop if I can never afford to run it at the range. I just wouldn't own one. I think like everything else, you make it monetarily unattractive for the average Walmart person to own.
Because middle class people are by their nature dumb and ignorant?

Quote:
If you want a monster truck, that's cool...enjoy that tax bill every year. If you want a tank...enjoy that's sales tax on $250,000. If you want any weapon that the military has...enjoy that price tag and the tax you are going to pay when you shell out full price and tax for one of those. I just think it would not be as big of a deal as the lawmakers are making it out to be.
The price tag on NFA items has been artificailly inflated. Before the NFA they were available in any hardware store.

Quote:
Also, and this maybe unpopular here, but I am ok with the steps to own a Class 3 weapon. It further weeds out the people that want them for no good.
Again, the middle class people. Strange everyone hates them. They are the backbone of the country. Who else should we infringe upon their constitutional rights in your opinion?

Quote:
Who wants to fill out paperwork and pay an additional $200 to Uncle Sam THEN wait 4-6 months on the paperwork to own just one. Only law abiding citizens.
Let's take your though process a step further. How about doing that to all firearms? Then, of course, only the law abiding citizens would put up with that. But, if they are law abiding, you don't trust them with their own liberty. Yet, you just blithely accept the criminal element having them. That is a really dysfunctional perspective.

Quote:
Again, if you are a gang banger, you won't be going to all that trouble to obtain one legally when you want to knock off a store or a person. It is cost prohibitive. So once again, all you are doing is limiting the honest person. Ok...rant over.
Yeah, because we want gang bangers to have ease of access and the the law abiding citizen to be wrapped up in red tape.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:37   #233
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Ok, I think my entire post was taken out of context. Maybe I wrote it wrong since I was up well before my morning coffee. I am no way implying that the middle class shouldn't own weapons of any type. But again, I am saying what is reasonable. Here is the hard truth...under NO circumstances are we ever going to see the NFA or 86 ban just go away and they say, ok have fun...buy whatever you want. And before you say something like "not with that attitude", I am just being realistic. I wish it wasn't that way but it is. So how can we get as much out of this as we can? Having the all or none attitude is not getting us anywhere. We can complain all day long about how this is unconstitutional and that is not fair...but it is reality. The only people that are going to overturn any of our gun issues today will be the Supreme Court. I don't know about all of you, but I am not holding out hope on them saying, you have to lift alllll restrictions. It will never happen. So how can we get some or a few restrictions lifted? I think at best they will lift the MG ban, but you will still have to go through red tape. So, y'all can call me a Brady supporter (which I am not), you can jump me for being the unpopular thinker, but I am saying this is the world we live in now, and shy of overthrowing the government, I don't see this stuff being unrestrictive to the point of buying it in hardware stores. So instead of trying and swing for the fence, maybe we should fight one little fight at a time and be reasonable about what is expected of us. Like I said, don't blame me, you can blame the few or many that have chosen to not follow the laws and rules, and in general, common sense. More importantly, you forget that people...citizens...voted for these people that put these laws into place. And what's worse is that they continue to vote for them. So I am not the problem here.

And, while some gun prices are waaaayyy over inflated, stuff like heavy machine guns (M2's) and light machine guns (M60, M249) are not cheap to begin with, even for the us government who buy boat loads of them. So you aren't going to see 3-400 dollar machine guns...never. Plus you still have to operate them and that is expensive...maybe over inflated, but still isn't cheap.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:52   #234
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I agree that we may be a ways of from being able to buy a mine at Tractor Supply or a MANPADS at Walmart. But there may be some items that perhaps the restrictions for which could be relaxed. Maybe try silencers for .22s first. If there isn't a huge increase in crimes involving suppressed .22 pistols and rifles, then maybe move to center fire versions.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:20   #235
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Originally Posted by Henry's Dad View Post
My point is that what is realistically protected under the 2A is directly related to what was reasonble to own at the time of the adoption of the Bill of Rights. Minutemen were expected to own rifles, maybe a pistol. No one expected them to own a cannon or warship.
This is not correct. During the Revolutionary War the govt encouraged private citizens to arm ships and attack British shipping.

http://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_...rivateers.html
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:26   #236
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Great post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
They had free access to the 18the century equivalents.



If we are going to use the "idiot test" then we should just abandon the Constitution, and simply ban people from things they are too "dumb" to handle. I guess that would decrease the populous exponentially when the folks that need to read caution lables on simple items died out by attrition.

On that note we may as well deny stupid people the right to voe (look where that has gotten us). We should deny stupid people driver's licenses so they can't injure themselves or others with 5 ton weapons that hurtle down the from at 85 plus miles per hour.

There are already a whole group of stupid people that already own firearms. I have met many. Loading the wrong ammo in a weapon, inserting magazines backwards, causually waving around a loaded weapon like it is a ciagrette. I could go on.

Which constitutional guarantees should we arbitrarily strip from the stupid? I am sure we can think of more than just the 2A.



The idiots already have them. They are called criminals, and laws mean nothing to them. Go to Peurto Rico, it is not uncommon for neighborhoods to already have these prohibited NFA items including RPG's. But, they belong to the criminal element that holds its populous capitve and the police don't dare venture in to do anything about it. They are outgunned.

I had a friend that worked and lived there. He said on a quiet night from his high rise he could watch and listen to the automatic fire and explosions going on. So, what I am hearing is that the regular folk can't be trusted with what the criminal element already have at their personal disposal.



These NFA weapons aren't affordable beause they have been made purposely expensive for those that actually want to obey the law. Now, if you are a Crip or a Blood on the West Coast, you simply have your full auto AK's smuggled in from China. They have them. You don't. Seems unablanced, don't you think? I have yet to meet a smart gang member of any gang. So, now you have supid criminals with NFA weapons, and law abiding citizens who can't possibly afford the legal ones that Congress infringed upon in the 1980's.



So, only trust fund weirdos like Ralph Lauren the rapist should own them? I guess they are the only people who should be able to vote too? The reason these weapons are expensive is because the 2A was infringed upon to make them rare. When there are few items, the market makes them more expensive.



Yes, because regular middle class folks can't be trusted to tie their own shoes? There are plenty of honest middl class people who can't pay for an NFA firearm what it would cost to buy a new car. Again, because the 2A was infringed upon making them cost prohibitive to anyone but the wealthy elite, and the criminal class who steal them, modify prexisting ones, or have them smuggled into the country.



Look at your stryrophome coffee cup some time and read the warning lable. Foolishness has been legal for a long time now.



Because middle class people are by their nature dumb and ignorant?



The price tag on NFA items has been artificailly inflated. Before the NFA they were available in any hardware store.



Again, the middle class people. Strange everyone hates them. They are the backbone of the country. Who else should we infringe upon their constitutional rights in your opinion?



Let's take your though process a step further. How about doing that to all firearms? Then, of course, only the law abiding citizens would put up with that. But, if they are law abiding, you don't trust them with their own liberty. Yet, you just blithely accept the criminal element having them. That is a really dysfunctional perspective.



Yeah, because we want gang bangers to have ease of access and the the law abiding citizen to be wrapped up in red tape.

it's nice to someone standing up for our rights, and it's alarming to see people spouting rhetoric that will end private arms ownership on a pro gun forum
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:54   #237
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Originally Posted by Pilotdude3407 View Post
Ok, I think my entire post was taken out of context. Maybe I wrote it wrong since I was up well before my morning coffee. I am no way implying that the middle class shouldn't own weapons of any type. But again, I am saying what is reasonable. Here is the hard truth...under NO circumstances are we ever going to see the NFA or 86 ban just go away and they say, ok have fun...buy whatever you want. And before you say something like "not with that attitude", I am just being realistic. I wish it wasn't that way but it is. So how can we get as much out of this as we can? Having the all or none attitude is not getting us anywhere. We can complain all day long about how this is unconstitutional and that is not fair...but it is reality. The only people that are going to overturn any of our gun issues today will be the Supreme Court. I don't know about all of you, but I am not holding out hope on them saying, you have to lift alllll restrictions. It will never happen. So how can we get some or a few restrictions lifted? I think at best they will lift the MG ban, but you will still have to go through red tape. So, y'all can call me a Brady supporter (which I am not), you can jump me for being the unpopular thinker, but I am saying this is the world we live in now, and shy of overthrowing the government, I don't see this stuff being unrestrictive to the point of buying it in hardware stores. So instead of trying and swing for the fence, maybe we should fight one little fight at a time and be reasonable about what is expected of us. Like I said, don't blame me, you can blame the few or many that have chosen to not follow the laws and rules, and in general, common sense. More importantly, you forget that people...citizens...voted for these people that put these laws into place. And what's worse is that they continue to vote for them. So I am not the problem here.And, while some gun prices are waaaayyy over inflated, stuff like heavy machine guns (M2's) and light machine guns (M60, M249) are not cheap to begin with, even for the us government who buy boat loads of them. So you aren't going to see 3-400 dollar machine guns...never. Plus you still have to operate them and that is expensive...maybe over inflated, but still isn't cheap.
Yes, you are the problem because you will accept it as "it's the thing now". And yes, you still sound exactly like a Brady Campainer.

If Rosa Parks hadn't stayed put, where would we be?????

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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Old 12-12-2012, 11:02   #238
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Originally Posted by LawScholar View Post
Go to peopleofwalmart.com. If you can find me ten people you'd honestly be okay owning C4 and RPG7s unregulated, I'll agree with repealing the NFA.

There's a huge missing element from back in the day - responsibility.
Well, first you have to find 10 people at wal-mart that have the $$$ to purchase those items. They aren't cheap.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:03   #239
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So, just like I said, you're content with the oppression simply because you've been conditioned to think so. Because it's already happened, then we now have to keep the status quo???

This is truly a circuitous debate point. It's the equivalent of saying, "Well, the barn door was open and the horse got out", but never bothering to retrieve the lost horse.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

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Great analogy!
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:06   #240
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This isn't mentioned enough. The Founding Fathers were not some solid block of the same opinions. In fact the Constitution as drafted did not even HAVE a bill of rights, they threw it in at the last minute to appease the Antifederalists.

"Shall not be infringed" without anything else is an argument as devoid of reason and logic as "Guns kill people".

I don't consider being okay with heavier regulations on full-auto and explosives "used to the oppression", I consider it well-reasoned restriction just like background checks. Yeah, if we must go there, I trust my neighbors with AR-15s and Glocks, but not with Stingers and RPG-7s. People are pretty darn stupid these days, they can't control their waistlines or balance a checkbook. At a certain point we have to step back from the hard line and realize the total absurdity of privately owned nukes and 155mm artillery.
The problem with "well reasoned" is by whose standards? And are those standards unilaterally accepted? See this is the problem I have with "well reasoned" and "common sense", those two prose are subjective to the author and discount the audience in many cases.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:12   #241
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Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
Who knows what the actual percentage is or ever was for that matter? How are you going to compare percentages you have no ideal about? You asked so you tell me what percentage of firearms sales are to folks already owning firearms and what percentage to first time buyers. I do not know myself.

I would add that it really does not matter, you implication that American society is somehow turning over all personal responsibility for security to the government is not shown in the economics of the firearm industry. Look at the boom in sales of small compact carry handguns and ARs for example.
His implication is dead balls on. Look at the meteoric rise of social programs, unemployment extensions, food stamps and now universal government health care. Look at the "prodigies" being graduated from the public school system.

When people hear I live off grid, raise and hunt much of my own food and **GASP!!** maintain firearms for the purpose of defending my home and family, they are confused by this choice of lifestyle. It scares the crap out of them, the simple concept of being RESPONSIBLE for ones own welfare is FOREIGN to them.

More proof is in the various natural disasters that have hit our nation these last few years. The number of citizens that were PREPARED to take care of themselves continues to dwindle. The expectation of the government to rescue them and care for them increases. So yes... his implication is correct.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:14   #242
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Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
Citizens vs standing armies via 1770s and same thing via 2010s are vastly different. For example you name one military piece of equipment in the 1770s that could not be fully countered by militia forces. There is not one. Try the same exercise in 2012 and we can all name dozens upon dozens. If you really want to change the laws you had better come up with a more reasonable and realistic debate point than that. That one will get exactly zero in a open debate, in court, in any legislature or with the American people IMO.

Who is timid about the 2nd A? Because I don't believe what you do about it's meaning in 2012 I am timid?
Hmmm, yet history says a different story. Militia's and guerrillas have been standing up to and inflicting death and destruction in the face of heavier armed adversaries and their will has still not been broken. You can kill a man but killing an ideal is much more difficult. And Freedom is one hell of an ideal many are willing to fight for.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:18   #243
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Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
Of course it has nothing to do with hunting. You are not going to have weapons equal to the government, those days are long gone. Using that line of debate is simply outdated. Nor do you need them to fight a standing military, as witnessed by the wars of the last 40 years.

And no way is NJ getting a ICBM
Not true...

http://www.knobcreekgunsales.com/eve...hine-gun-shoot

What limits our ability are three things:
1. Government restrictions our our RIGHT
2. Ignorance of the people of their RIGHT
3. The cost of the weapons are out of reach for the average citizen. That make it a self regulating industry right there.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:26   #244
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Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
Well

1. We will both be dead so a bet between us does not make alot of sense.

2. Why do you think it will not? It has done fairly well so far.
You haven't been paying attention... we have a Socialist in power hell bent on breaking our nations economy so he can make life "fair" for all. And the masses are gleefully following him right into the grave. Useful idiots the lot of them.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:35   #245
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Really? Comparing a idiot/nutjob with 500 gallons of gas and the same person with a RPG/grenade? Show me a guy carrying around 500 gallons of fuel, just one example of a man carrying that around. Have a little real world perspective in your post at least.

Who said anything about magazine capacity limits? I did not. I do not support them. Leaping to conclusion does not make your point stronger, it in fact weakens it.

And I am not setting any laws or regulations, that is society as a whole doing so thru the elective process. So my fears are not in question here, I think you mean to question society's fears.
Ingredients for disaster...
1 - automotive device
A volume of volatile fuel (won't say how much... don't need the feds on my ass)
Another off the shelf product.
And one more...

Drive automotive device to desired target area. Exit automotive device and remote detonate. Life is dangerous... and the problem is none of us get out alive. The goal... to last as long as possible. Bottom line though, if someone is hell bent on causing mass death and destruction, it can be easily done with COTS available to any and everyone. It's a matter of obtaining the items, combining them then deploying them.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:37   #246
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Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
What I find so ridiculous about your arguments is the American Patriot's resolve and conviction. The intelligence of most patriots might surprise you, and that when overcoming horrendous odds, need becomes the mother of invention.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde
You forgot to add that many of us are former military and know the tools and play book.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:43   #247
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Could be, no doubt. But that has what to do with a guy buying a half dozen grenades at Uncle Keiths Surplus Store and then dropping them in the local cineplex?

Because we can not realistically protect against all threats we protect against none?
Everything. You think by denying a citizen the ability to purchase an explosive you are preventing it's deployment. But in fact it's a fallacy based on false hope.

I can very easily build my own rockets. The parts are readily available and the technology for simple rocket propelled grenades and even short range rocket are easy to construct. Do I build them? No, I have no need to... yet. But I know how, I learned in 8th grade (got into trouble for it too).

Grenades... same thing. You argue based on the premise that denial and restriction is what keeps people from breaking the law, but that is simply not true. Someone that is determined and feels they have a need can and will attain it. The fundamental difference is what they create may not be as effective... but it doesn't have to be. It just needs to work.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:48   #248
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Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
So you agree that we don't need the types of weapon systems being debated to counter a federal government out of control? See we agree after all

Honestly we are not losing (if indeed we are) because of the enemy we face but because of the restraints put on our boys by D.C. via the American people and press. So the real question is would those same restraints be in place in some kind of 2nd American Civil War? If not then my statement still it true IMO. Who knows maybe it would be a war of eradication or just a policing action.

My point was and is that the ideal that average folks need heavy weapon system to counter the U.S. Govt is a bit far fetched to me. But ignore me, it is way more far fetched to the average American so as a point of debate in favor of removing the NFA and all like restrictions it is pointless. That is not going to move the needle of public opinion at all IMO. Those advocating such things better come up with a more realistic reason IMO or the public debate (which is the one that really matters) is over before it began.
No, I do not agree. The NFA and restrictions on Americans that are legally (as defined within the BOR) capable of owning firearms should not be regulated.
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:59   #249
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Well has anyone changed their opinion here at all yet? Yeah me either. Aghhhh 2nd A debates on GT, they never end with anyone having changed views


Guess we will see how/if these laws progress. Are there any serious court case pending on them currently?
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:07   #250
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Originally Posted by Glock20 10mm View Post
Everything. You think by denying a citizen the ability to purchase an explosive you are preventing it's deployment. But in fact it's a fallacy based on false hope.

I can very easily build my own rockets. The parts are readily available and the technology for simple rocket propelled grenades and even short range rocket are easy to construct. Do I build them? No, I have no need to... yet. But I know how, I learned in 8th grade (got into trouble for it too).

Grenades... same thing. You argue based on the premise that denial and restriction is what keeps people from breaking the law, but that is simply not true. Someone that is determined and feels they have a need can and will attain it. The fundamental difference is what they create may not be as effective... but it doesn't have to be. It just needs to work.

I think from my post I have made clear that laws do not stop anything, they only help limit those violations they pertain to. Fact is that if I wanted to toss a few granades into the local mall tonight I could not. Why ? Because I have none and can't go buy some down the block. The law just helped limit my ability to commit that crime. Could I make my own? Yes but that sure takes more skill, resources and time than buying off the shelf.
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