[Arc Angel]

Originally Posted by RenoF250

I check my guns like crazy and NEVER point them at people but if somehow that were me I would not care what happened to me. I cannot imagine being responsible for killing your own son like that. Too much to bear.

Yes, you're right! If I've said it once on this site, I've said it a thousand times: There is seldom a valid reason for a civilian to keep his pistol in C-1 around his family. As far as I'm concerned this kid died as much from an overdose of, 'the machismo Glock Talk mentality' as from a father who, with completely thoughtless abandon, broke ALL of the cardinal rules for safe gun handling.

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Go to your local indoor range and hang out for a couple days, open to close. You'll quickly become quite jaded.

Let's just say it's refreshing when a shooter doesn't have their finger the entire time. I've seen people talking, waving their hands around, with their finger firmly planted on the trigger of a loaded firearm. Hell I've seen people turn around and point a loaded firearm back out the entrance to their lane. It happens multiple times a day. I saw a guy walking around outside of the lanes with his Sig.

Hell a guy shot another during a firearms safety class at one of the local indoor ranges yesterday.

It's the "been shooting for 40 years" crowd that are the worst.

Id say 97% of shooters don't know what they are doing, 2% have a clue, 1% are gtg.

Good post!

That must be an incredibly safe gun range you shoot at, though. At one of the public ranges near my home, there is a superabundance of RO's; and these guys will, sometimes, stick to certain shooters, 'like glue'. This is, probably, because every couple of years somebody gets shot there. We've been here 15 years; so far I've heard about 4 accidental shootings and 1 death at this popular, 'pay to shoot' public range. (Huge New York and New Jersey weekend crowd!)

At the other, state game commission managed, semi-public shooting range near my home it's often, literally, worth your life to shoot there - Especially on weekends! At this range I've seen it all: drunks with guns, dizzy teenage girls waving C-1 pistols around in circles, city gangbangers perfecting their aim, marginally supervised young boys (Start 'um early, right!) with only a minimal understanding of muzzle control; and real, 'hard cases' who are going to handle their guns THEIR WAY no matter what the bright orange sign at the range entrance says.

A couple of weeks ago a well-dressed man who was wearing an expensive leather jacket with a Corps logo on it, kept covering me with his muzzle every time he put his gun down. I waited until after he did it three times in a row before I stepped back off the line and said something to him. First thing he did was make an excuse; but, after a few moments, he looked at me and said, 'You're right!' (An unusual man!)

What is the most common and one of the most dangerous things I watch people do with guns? The moment a right-handed shooter has a problem with a gun - especially a handgun - he'll stop, lower the gun, and point the muzzle (Where?) down the entire left side of the firing line! (Often while the pistol is still in C-1!)

It's NOT a matter of, 'If the father thought the gun was loaded then he shouldn't have pointed the muzzle at his son.' That's, 'neophyte gun handling rationale'. The first Cardinal Rule of gun safety states, 'The gun is always loaded' - Period. There are no valid exceptions to this rule - Not even when the gun is in front of you, lying on the bench, and in pieces!

The second Cardinal Rule of gun safety states that, 'You should never allow the muzzle to point at - OR EVEN, TO SO MUCH AS, SWING ACROSS - anything you are unwilling to see destroyed.'

The third Cardinal Rule of gun safety says, 'Never place your finger inside the trigger guard until AFTER you have made a conscious decision to fire.' If I've said it once on Glock Talk I've said it a thousand times: It is, both, physically and humanly impossible for any shooter to keep his finger off the trigger ALL OF THE TIME; but nobody ever listens; and I keep getting, 'crap talk' every time I post this.

What can I say? With a father like this that kid was never destined to grow up. As far as I'm concerned Dad, quite possibly, spent too much time on internet gun forums like this one and, obviously, had absorbed the mentality.



REFER: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=575

[mjkeat]

Originally Posted by Bren

I've been shooting with both, since before you were born - you are living in a fantasy world. Even here on Glock Talk, civilian shooters with 1/4 of the training of a police officer are rare. It's just a lot easier to say your an "operator" on the internet than to be one. You also have the legal aprt backwards - as this story shows, civilians accidentally and negligently shoot people often without being charged with a crime.

I'd like to see some hard numbers on that. Like I mentioned earlier I am surrounded by all walks of LEO and DOC's from the top to the bottom. Trainers to beat cops to chiefs to SRT supervisors/lead trainers to SWAT guys to Triple C trainers. Other than your special groups they just don't train and outside of quals they just don't shoot. Of course, thankfully, there is an exception to that rule. It's rare though.

One of the groups I train w/ offers 1 free spot including all ammunition to a sworn LEO each class. One (1) class out of four (4) a LEO showed up.

The agencies should be mandating training and physical fitness requirements. But they don't. Why? Because if they did they'd have to allow it during work hours. If an officers was injured on the clock that's a work-comp claim. Those cost money which eats into an already overly stressed budget.

[Jake Starr]

Yes, you're right! If I've said it once on this site, I've said it a thousand times: There is seldom a valid reason for a civilian to keep his pistol in C-1 around his family. As far as I'm concerned this kid died as much from an overdose of, 'the machismo Glock Talk mentality' as from a father who, with completely thoughtless abandon, broke ALL of the cardinal rules for safe gun handling.

I could not agree more. And I know of plenty of combat vets who would also concur.

[SC Tiger]

Rest in peace little guy. That is horrible.

I have a rule at my house - if a gun is loaded, it is in a holster. That does a few things:

1) Serves as a visual cue that the weapon is loaded.
2) Makes it a little harder for little fingers to get ahold of the trigger (not that I leave them out for them to)
3) PROTECTS THE TRIGGER FROM FOREIGN OBJECTS

If the console in this guy's car is anything like mine there is a ton of carp in there. If you just "toss a gun in the console" there is a possibility that something (plug to a cell phone charger, ink pen, nose drop bottle, mount for a GPS, something) could find its way into the trigger guard and cause the trigger to be pulled. Triggers aren't magical things - it doesn't take a finger to pull it. A pencil, carrot, or any of the other carp I listed above can do it.

In my car I have a holster vecro'd to the side of the console that will hold my .380, 9mm, or .357 (it's an Uncle Mike's pocket holster). Keeps the trigger protected. Anything that isn't carried for defense is checked that it is unloaded, re-checked, re-checked again, and carried in the trunk, in a gun rug or case.

That said, humans make mistakes. This father will never be able to forgive himself. All the rest of us can do is take steps to make sure it doesn't happen to us.

[SC Tiger]

Originally Posted by Arc Angel

Yes, you're right! If I've said it once on this site, I've said it a thousand times: There is seldom a valid reason for a civilian to keep his pistol in C-1 around his family. As far as I'm concerned this kid died as much from an overdose of, 'the machismo Glock Talk mentality' as from a father who, with completely thoughtless abandon, broke ALL of the cardinal rules for safe gun handling.

I am going to disagree with the C-1 comment in the case that the weapon is being carried for immediate use (ie a CCW weapon). Many engagements require the ability to use the pistol one-handed. Not to mention revolvers which are either C-1 (basically) or empty.

There is no reason that a weapon that is not being carried to be C-1, however. You take it off, you clear it. This weapon should have had the chamber empty.

[JohnBT]

"There is seldom a valid reason for a civilian to keep his pistol in C-1 around his family."

I completely disagree.

Just out of curiosity, do you believe a civilian police officer (not military) ever has a valid reason?

John

[Arc Angel]

OF COURSE YOU DISAGREE!

That's exactly why, 'accidental' deaths like this are going to continue. Guys like you just don't - or worse, won't - get it.

As for the supposed witticism about 'civilian police officers'? First, you're overthinking this. With the possible exception of the Guardian Angels (or, maybe, 'Mall Security') there is no such thing as a, 'civilian police officer'. Where did THAT come from?

Second, what are you? New to the Internet! Police officers' children get shot with their parents' handguns all of the time. You don't need me to reply. Google this topic and see for yourself!

This ain't, 'rocket science'. It's just plain good old fashioned human arrogance and stupidity at work; and it's people like you who, invariably, manage to keep it going. (You're doing it right now!)

[Mayhem like Me]

Originally Posted by TK-421

Not from what I've seen. http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/justic...ate/index.html

An average citizen did that, he'd be in jail for life. A cop does it, the city backs them up, they keep their job, no charges filed.

Cops seem to be less accurate than the average gun toting citizen. The average gun toting citizen will usually go to the range once a month, because they enjoy it and like shooting. It seems like the cops only go to the range when it's required for them to qualify and keep their job.

Lmao if it wasn't so pathetic I see cases every year where average Joes let their kids get ahold of a gun someone ends up dying they don't go to jail

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