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Old 12-05-2012, 12:09   #221
eaglefrq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carloglock19 View Post
OP,
I don't understand why a gun shop would clean their guns inside and out prior to being sold. Is this customary? I know its not what I see in my area.
I have never seen a gun store clean a gun. The most I have seen is they wipe the outside down occasionally due to everyone handling them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
First I believe the reason you hear about so many AD/ND with Glocks is there are so many out there. Very popular gun with all the movies using them & of course LEO use.

Second, many of those that purchase them never get
any form of training on safe handling and basic shooting
skills. They buy them, go to the range and shoot 50
rounds and that's it. It's both the platform & non-shooters
that are the problem. The Glock itself is a safe gun.

Again your right that this topic has come up and discussing
it may help to get some people to go take a gun safty course.

Last, you and any other shooter needs to feel comfortable with their carry gun 100% so in a high stress situation you will have the best chance of coming out of it alive
I agree with the entire post, but the bold section is the best piece of advice so far.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:13   #222
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Originally Posted by eaglefrq View Post
I have never seen a gun store clean a gun. The most I have seen is they wipe the outside down occasionally due to everyone handling them..
The shop around won't even break a Glock down until its sold.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:18   #223
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Originally Posted by Alter-Ego View Post

When it comes to accidents Glocks are at the top of the list, 1911 models close second,,, maybe?
Pretty sure that is a statistic indicative of the #'s of those types of guns owned, not the likelihood of a failure.

The more of something you have, the bigger chance for a screw up.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:34   #224
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I had a conversation today with one of my buddies that had worked at the store I purchased from, He said that a lot of the times, if they get a pistol on trade that is basically brand new looking and has everything as new, they will sell it as new. Not used.

They also said that depending on who checks the pistols in and logs them, that they will take them apart and clean all the copper lube etc out of them ahead of time. He made it sound like it was a personal choice of that particular employee that did this.

As far as tinkering with them, he said he had never seen anyone do that, but it wouldn't be a surprise to him if that were the case.....

So I at this point am wondering if they sold me a "NEW" gun that wasnt quite new, or somehow got put with the NEW pistols instead of the used pistols. This G23 definitely looked Brand New In Box to me. It was definitely sold to me as a Brand New Glock 23.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:36   #225
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Originally Posted by Made in Austria View Post
I was thinking about making a video about this several times. All I need to do is to chop one of my spare slide back plates in half so that I can gain access to the firing pin/striker lug and the rear/sear of the trigger bar so that I can push down the the rear end of the trigger bar with an small flat headed screw driver which would release the striker.

The problem with simulating this is the firing pin safety block. It might fire with an ~ 65-70% pre-set striker, if I completely remove the safety block. But it might not, even if the safety block and its spring is incorretly installed.

I would not suggest anyone doing this with a hot round though because it could end bloody when it fires and the slide comes back at your fingers and your screw driver. It can end even deadly if the gun slips out of your hand while you manipulate it. Eventough it's not hard stop the slide from coming back with just your thumb pressure while firing. But the slide is hard to stop ones it started moving.

One can 100% simulate a hot round with an empty shell casing, no gun powder and no projetile in it, just the primer, or you use a blank round.

PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!!!

If someone wants to send me a gun to be mangled, I'll gladly pop in a dummy round and put the gun thru every type of trauma imaginable. Drop tests, throw it across the room, drop from a moving car, totally kick the crap out of it.... So who wants to give one up for the sake of science...???
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:36   #226
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Originally Posted by GaryC View Post
Great info and thanks for posting it.

I assume that your pistol still has the original ribbed trigger with trigger bar in it. I'm only asking because a lot of folks like to have them changed out for the smooth trigger with trigger bar when they buy them and would probably still consider their pistol stock (as you said it was) because the original trigger was replaced with a Glock OEM part.

Your assumption is correct, it is the original ribbed trigger.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:41   #227
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
150 rounds total. Cleaned anti-sieze (its not a lube). Flame? Naw, I am really trying to point out how the machinery works. And the unlikelyhood of this chain being factory originated.

Glock does not "fit" pistols together. They are "assembled" with standard parts. The trigger bar and striker are so standard that they simply drop in as do all the other parts. Its called interchangable parts. Glock parts are as identical as anything made in the gun world.

IF, and I say IF, this pistol had the minimal sear engagement claimed, any fool would have known it. Why you ask?

Because it would feel like a 3# 1911 trigger sitting on a hair's edge. Or simply feel TOO good.

A new Glock these days is coming with a 6-7# trigger that pulls easily, gets hard, has movement you can feel, and then releases the striker. With 500 or 1000 rounds it gets smoother and drops to 5.5-6#, but does not get shorter nor lose the free travel to the harder pull spot.

When the engagement is down under 50%, the "hard" portion of the trigger travel becomes almost non existent. You cannot miss it. It feels good, you like it, but no one besides an idjit would shoot it. You just know something is wrong.

How do da' Glock get such a FUBAR trigger? Not by factory assembly. The first time an assembler pulled the trigger, they would know. No second half travel/engagement.

What usually happens is that a 25cent tuneup removes metal from the bottom of the striker tang or the top of the trigger bar engaging the tang. This reduces engagement. Or the assembly gets bent. Specifically the part that enters the drop safety shelf gets bent upward and lets the "sear" part drop down. Or the long arm of the bar gets bent and does the same thing.

Or worse, the angle of the "sear" changes or the angle of the tang changes, and the engagement becomes one of self sliding release. Now that one really feels smooth.

Polished away metal? Bent parts? Either highly likely.

Factory FUBAR assembly? Not likely.

(None of which covers the firing pin safety problem.)(To get it to fire, we have to stack FUBAR upon FUBAR.)

I would believe Mrs. White did it in the closet with the plunger before I believed Gaston did it.

(I'm the first to admit you are probably not having fun by this point. I'm sorry your gun is not working correctly and way more sorry it managed to fire unwantedly. Hell, I know what stupid feels like. Try asking a GlockTech if it matters if your older AA .22LR unit breaking off a brand new Glock Gen4's plastic assembly guides in front of the front rails matters for functionality. And the only nice thing the fellow can think of to say is, "That's novel." Yeah, I did that. I had never seen a word about the older AA units damaging Gen4 frames. While its just cosmetic, every time you disassemble it, you are reminded.)

To be completely honest, now that I think about it the trigger pull on the pistol did seem a good amount lighter than my gen 3 and gen 2 glocks, but seeing as how I have never bought a new glock until this one, let alone a gen 4 I chalked it up to me being unfamiliar with it. It was not to the point that it seemed something was actually wrong though. Just reminded me of a light almost 4.5lb trigger pull or so.

That sucks about the .22LR AA unit. I would definitely be less than thrilled about that! Especially with the nonchalant response from a GlockTech.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:45   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carloglock19 View Post
OP,
Do you think there was a chance that the gun shop sold you a used handgun? I don't understand why a gun shop would clean their guns inside and out prior to being sold. Is this customary? I know its not what I see in my area. What if one of the employees got bored while cleaning it and decided to modify some stuff and play around with it or maybe it was a returned gun. All the Glocks that I bought new weren't cleaned until "I" the owner cleaned them and inspected them. I think we have ruled the holster as being the problem. With that said let us know what Glocks tells you. A couple of possibilities now:
1. It came FUBARed from Glock
2. Somebody tampered/modified/screwed with it before it got to you.
The more I am thinking and hearing about it, the more I am wondering If I didnt somehow get a used gun sold as "new".
Whether it was knowingly sold like this or not Is what I would like to know.

Also the 4 guns I have bought from there have all been wiped and cleaned prior to my purchase, so I assume this is customary? I never thought anything of it to be honest. If I wouldnt have had this issue I probably still wouldn't.

Will keep you all updated when I hear from Glock. I am pretty sure he next day shipped it today. Will be checking after work though.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:46   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
Glocks are known for going bang. The trigger safety has always been an issue and their models should be updated to have the grip safety like the 1911 firearms received after they were very popular and they were "going boom by accident". The gun should be sent back to Glock to see if it is defective and you should check the ammo to check for defects. Most of the time it is always "operator error" but I do have to say that you should be carrying an HK.

I would also place snap caps in the firearm, cock it and place the holster on it and try to duplicate the event. Maybe you touched the holster where it could place pressure upon the trigger and cause it ti fire. Remember what I said...."the Glock trigger safety sucks".

Keep finger away from trigger in a Glock until you have a safe background etc. Any damage to the home?

But I have seen some ammo go off for no reason over the years. So check everything out.

I am actually working on ponying up the money for a newer p30 or USP!
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:55   #230
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Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
I am actually working on ponying up the money for a newer p30 or USP!
Good choice!
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Old 12-05-2012, 13:06   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
I was talking about the 80 series vs the 70 series. I think Glocks are inherently dangerous because if something hits that little safety , the trigger moves easily. If they had the grip safety too I don't think the Glocks would be as prone to accidental discharge.
OK, the difference between series 80 and series 70
is the firing pin safty. the 1911 is very much like the Glock
version. a plunger in the slide. Glock has always had one.
Colt added that in 70 years later.

The lever on the Glock trigger is for the trigger to start moving.
The striker/FP safty takes over after the trigger moves back.

Both are to prevent a discharge if the weapon is dropped.
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Old 12-05-2012, 13:14   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
I had a conversation today with one of my buddies that had worked at the store I purchased from, He said that a lot of the times, if they get a pistol on trade that is basically brand new looking and has everything as new, they will sell it as new. Not used.

They also said that depending on who checks the pistols in and logs them, that they will take them apart and clean all the copper lube etc out of them ahead of time. He made it sound like it was a personal choice of that particular employee that did this.

As far as tinkering with them, he said he had never seen anyone do that, but it wouldn't be a surprise to him if that were the case.....

So I at this point am wondering if they sold me a "NEW" gun that wasnt quite new, or somehow got put with the NEW pistols instead of the used pistols. This G23 definitely looked Brand New In Box to me. It was definitely sold to me as a Brand New Glock 23.
One would think that if they were trying to pass off a previously used Glock as new they would leave the anti seize in place. As wiping/cleaning it out would be a dead give away that some one other than Glock had been in the gun,at least if one is familiar with Glocks.
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Old 12-05-2012, 15:32   #233
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I had a conversation today with one of my buddies that had worked at the store I purchased from, He said that a lot of the times, if they get a pistol on trade that is basically brand new looking and has everything as new, they will sell it as new. Not used.

They also said that depending on who checks the pistols in and logs them, that they will take them apart and clean all the copper lube etc out of them ahead of time. He made it sound like it was a personal choice of that particular employee that did this.


As far as tinkering with them, he said he had never seen anyone do that, but it wouldn't be a surprise to him if that were the case.....

I would offer two pieces of advice:
1) beyond resolving this particular M23, I would never set foot inside that store again.
2) I always buy a gun straight out of the box. I would never buy the counter shelf gun on display. If they are not breaking the seal on a brand new Glock in front of you, I would not buy it. (They are sealed when shipped and only opened at the store. They should only be opened in front of the customer already buying it.)

Putting all your pieces together, I am starting to get the tingle that some one bought this gun, did a mangled trigger job on it, and returned it to the store who sold it for new. Your less than 4.5# trigger feel just doesn't happen on a new Glock.

As to the only Gen4 Glock I own myself, yes, I am somewhat bent over the AA .22LR unit for Gen1-2-3 breaking off the assembly quides in front of the front rails. That location is the impact or stop spot for the 9mm slide to hit and stop rearward travel. There are pieces of steel there that do the job. Most Glocks shot a lot have the plastic battered away from the front of those little steel ends. But the guides remain above the steel. The older AA unit has a narrower than Gen4 bumper/recoil stop. A combination of the recoil spring stop wedging between the frame stop steel members and the stop itself being cut by the steel, breaks off the reassembly guides above the steel. I am told it is cosmetic. The M19 slide still stops on the steel rectangles. The correct AA recoil spring guide stop also stops on the same steel rectangles. So other than seeing it when disassembled, it is a non event. I am still bent over it. And the worst dam thing is that is the only time that AA .22LR LE19-23 unit ever ran 100 rounds with out a bobble. I am thinking of selling the entire M19 Gen4 upper assembly to some one who wants a caliber conversion for their M23 Gen4. I'd just keep the frame for a .22LR AA set.
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Old 12-05-2012, 16:56   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglaspel View Post
I had a conversation today with one of my buddies that had worked at the store I purchased from, He said that a lot of the times, if they get a pistol on trade that is basically brand new looking and has everything as new, they will sell it as new. Not used.

They also said that depending on who checks the pistols in and logs them, that they will take them apart and clean all the copper lube etc out of them ahead of time. He made it sound like it was a personal choice of that particular employee that did this.

As far as tinkering with them, he said he had never seen anyone do that, but it wouldn't be a surprise to him if that were the case.....

So I at this point am wondering if they sold me a "NEW" gun that wasnt quite new, or somehow got put with the NEW pistols instead of the used pistols. This G23 definitely looked Brand New In Box to me. It was definitely sold to me as a Brand New Glock 23.

They should be able to tell you if it was used or not. They have to log where they purchased it and log it out to whom they sold it to.


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Old 12-05-2012, 17:00   #235
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Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
Putting all your pieces together, I am starting to get the tingle that some one bought this gun, did a mangled trigger job on it, and returned it to the store who sold it for new. Your less than 4.5# trigger feel just doesn't happen on a new Glock.
What kinds of modifications do people do that would equate to a mangled trigger job?

I only ask because I figured to most people, a trigger job consists of a replacement connector and some polish work. I've never seen a poorly done trigger job on a Glock and I honestly dont know what people are doing to screw it up.

Last edited by PVolk; 12-05-2012 at 17:01..
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Old 12-05-2012, 17:06   #236
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Originally Posted by PVolk View Post
What kinds of modifications do people do that would equate to a mangled trigger job?

I only ask because I figured to most people, a trigger job consists of a replacement connector and some polish work. I've never seen a poorly done trigger job on a Glock and I honestly dont know what people are doing to screw it up.
very simply incorrectly polish F P lug rounding or edges of cruciform on the trigger bar are but two. SJ 40
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Old 12-05-2012, 17:07   #237
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Gun placed down on table and it fired with no finger near the trigger ? I call BS.

That's [impossble] with a modern handgun ... If this isn't a bs thread it's a serpa n/d thread and the op may not remember "exactly" what happened because of the intensity of the n/d at the time.

Many people have had nds with Serpas -- the whole release button sitting on the trigger is asking for problems.
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Old 12-05-2012, 17:13   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LampShadeActual View Post
Putting all your pieces together, I am starting to get the tingle that some one bought this gun, did a mangled trigger job on it, and returned it to the store who sold it for new. Your less than 4.5# trigger feel just doesn't happen on a new Glock.
This still doesn't explain how a Glock could go off without being touched. There still have to be multiple failures simultaneously.
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Old 12-05-2012, 17:13   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PVolk View Post
What kinds of modifications do people do that would equate to a mangled trigger job?

I only ask because I figured to most people, a trigger job consists of a replacement connector and some polish work. I've never seen a poorly done trigger job on a Glock and I honestly dont know what people are doing to screw it up.
All speculation. But if use gun anything possible. Prior owner could have had parts in a pile, his kids came along and played with parts, stepped on them etc. Owner may then have had to deal with bent parts, which he rebent to get assembled. Speculation, but if used gun potential is endless.
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Old 12-05-2012, 17:37   #240
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A lot of good speculation and theories. This thread will slowly fade away until the OP hears back from GLOCK.
Hopefully, that is not similar to asking the old USSR why a missle launch failed.
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