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Old 11-28-2012, 17:59   #1
COLOSHOOTR
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Opinions on Teams for Shifts

Starting next year we are going to the "team concept" on our shifts. Traditionally each shift has voted days off on a month to month basis by seniority allowing you to take whatever days off you wanted / needed depending on your seniority. If you were the top guy you could get any day off you wanted and could take off all major holidays. The down side to the way it has been is if you're at the bottom you get what is left and may end up with split days off and you may get bounced to a different shift for vacation coverage. Vacations were then voted at the end of each year for the next year against each officer of the same rank in the entire district usually allowing for a decent vacation if you have any seniority. Normally being on the bottom isn't a big deal because you did your time there and quickly got seniority to get better days off within a year or so. The problem is we have not hired since 2008 and those on the bottom have not gotten it any better and those of us in the middle, like myself, have actually gone backwards in seniority due to transfers and people quiting.....

Those of you who know where I work understand the changes we've been going though and how our chief is. He has now changed the way we do things and had us vote teams for next year. Each shift has four teams (A-D) on working 4 10's with different days off for each team. There are going to be two teams working on any given day to provide covrage as each team is only 1/2 of normal shift staffing levels. We are then voting vacation against the team baised on seniority with only one block open to the team open each period allowing us less options for vacation slots.

I'm curious if anyone is or has been on a similar type of team concept and what you guys think of it.....
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Old 11-28-2012, 18:12   #2
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We went to it in many areas of patrol years ago and since we were on four-tens, we had one overlap day. Day shift had Monday as an overlap day. Evenings had Friday and Nights had Saturday as overlap days.

The senior folks then bid for whatever shift and squad they wanted. It continued on until the more junior person got to pick or assigned what was left over.

It worked out well for us and the junior people knew that eventually they would get their turn. It also facilitated days off for people who wanted to take a fourth day off.
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Old 11-28-2012, 18:23   #3
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We do teams up north.

Five districts or beats, so five beat cars. Then a minimum of one "general" car (usually two) and K9 coverage (we have three dogs) plus a Sgt and usually a patrol commander on duty (0700-0100). I am the senior guy on my team which makes me a general car so I roam the whole AOR, don't get dispatched to paper calls unless the district car is tied up, act as cover and go on hot calls or leave the AOR to assist on clusters in other cities (Aurora shooting) and am acting sergeant when he is sick or on vacation.

We do 10s. With an overlap day where both teams for days, swings, or graves (each a different day) double up. Also allows coverage for training and in service etc. Or saturation patrols or special duties, two man cars etc.

Works decent. We bid at the end of October for the next year. Three rotations four months a piece. Based on seniority. Vacation bids are at the same time with flexibility for the rest of the year as needed and available. You can't do three rotations in a row of one particular shift. So next year I'm doing swings/days/swings.

Senior guy again first, then low seniority on days and back to senior on swings.
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Old 11-28-2012, 19:02   #4
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We do teams as well but its for the whole year, 4/10's overlap on Wednesday for everyone. Teams are chosen in November for the following year, based mostly by seniority but I am told that specially trained members can be asked to join other teams based on need for the team in need.

I am in Detentions at the SO but everyone I know in Patrol says its the same so if I missed anything I apologize.

I like our setup as it gives everyone a saturday or a sunday off, I'm A side so I work Sunday through Wednesday, next year I am on the same side but swings instead of days. I like the way it is but to be honest I haven't been here for a year yet so I'm at the bottom and when I make Deputy I start over for seniority (Sucks but it was my choice). The seniority thing can be tough since I am a hunter and so is most of my team LOL, but I can't complain, the department is also favorable to trading shifts to help people get their time off so that helps a bunch.

I like the team concept, but I can see the pro's and con's, you always have the Members who don't play well with others, I have no complaints with my current team, they kick butt, next years team looks to be stronger and I have a good relationship with those on the team so I look forward to the change.

Hope this helps
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Old 11-28-2012, 19:58   #5
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Your chief sucks. That is all.
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Old 11-28-2012, 20:51   #6
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We've done a team schedule for the last two years. It certainly has its benefits, like being able to do shift training on the overlap day. However I work for a pretty small department that is short staffed. Our minimum is supposed to be 3 officers and a Sgt per shift, however due to staffing levels, and vacations we are sometimes running 2 officers on weekend shifts, which isn't enough. If we went away from the team schedule the shortage could be better spread out.

We also work shifts in 3 month blocks, so everybody will work every shift in a year, which makes things fair for the new guys but sucks for people with seniority who would prefer to work the same shift.

It also really blows if your team mates are people that you don't work with because you are stuck with them for the entire year. Our overlap day (Friday) should be stacked in theory, however people seem to take that day off on a regular basis, leaving us with the minimum.

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Old 11-28-2012, 22:46   #7
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I'd like to see some of these Team setups on paper. Any examples floating around on the 'net? My dept is still on standard 8's (5 on, 2 off) and a lot of us have talked about going to 10's but nobody has really made the move yet with our union for a vote... then have them bring it to the admin.

We have around 125 total sworn, patrol next year will be around 70 (10 are supervisors) between the standard 3 shifts with no overlap. Any ideas on what we could do with these numbers, please PM if it's too far from the OP's topic.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:29   #8
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Quote:
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Your chief sucks. That is all.
Oh yeah.... I think you called it before he even showed up though!

I'm glad most of you guys seem to have a pretty decent opinion on the teams. I hope they work out for me since I was actually able to get the days off and vacations I needed. It's just going to suck I'll never be able to vote off a holiday in my career unless it falls on the set days off or manage to pull a good vacation.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:06   #9
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Jail, one smaller PD (20 officers) and 2/3 of another PD (they have one watch of 8 hour days) do the "team" concept here with 12 hour watches. I like the concept, but obviously the strength of it, particularly with 12s, is in the strength of your team. I don't know exactly what they do for vacation and stuff, but it seems to be well regarded.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:00   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COLOSHOOTR View Post
Oh yeah.... I think you called it before he even showed up though!

I'm glad most of you guys seem to have a pretty decent opinion on the teams. I hope they work out for me since I was actually able to get the days off and vacations I needed. It's just going to suck I'll never be able to vote off a holiday in my career unless it falls on the set days off or manage to pull a good vacation.
Wonder if that was because I watched what he did to my wife's department for a few years, and saw/spoke with dozens of long time cops who hung it up due to his asinine policies.

Hey, if his son makes it out there, hit me with a PM. Got some stuff you might wanna know. Part of it can be found on Google....
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Old 11-29-2012, 17:26   #11
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We do the team deal with overlap on Wednesdays, and its not too bad. We do 4/10s and everyone gets part of the weekend.


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Old 11-29-2012, 17:53   #12
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We do the team deal with overlap on Wednesdays, and its not too bad. We do 4/10s and everyone gets part of the weekend.


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That's how we do it.

Time off is first come first served. You cannot put in for time off more than a year in advance. That rule is relatively new because people were putting in for the 4th of July off for 3-4 years in advance. That and Halloween and New Years are "all hands on deck" kind of nights.
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Old 11-29-2012, 17:56   #13
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when i was with a unionized dept. years ago shifts and vacations were bid on by seniority, but days off rotated regardless of seniority.

at the dept. im with now seniority means nothing. days off are rotated, shifts are rotated, and vacation is if there are enough people to cover for you when you want off.
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Old 11-29-2012, 20:54   #14
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Your chief sucks. That is all.
Yep. As I've said before, you're free to take him back at your earliest convenience.
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Old 11-29-2012, 21:26   #15
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This whole team thing isn't terrible in principle, but in practice it looks like it will be a complete disaster. For starters, it was rammed down our throats without even an attempt to get feedback from the troops. It was hastily thrown together at the last second, and is practically GUARANTEED to collapse next year once it takes effect. The admin is so painfully shortsighted, that they are incapable of seeing how the team plan will utterly fail with the staffing levels they have provided. We are already dangerously understaffed at current levels, yet the city thinks it is a good idea to reduce weekday staffing by an additional three bodies per district/per shift. We just had that incident last week where it took over an hour to respond to an aggravated DOMV in-progress due to call-load, where the victim ended up dead. And that was with CURRENT staffing levels. And as expected, hizzoner The Chief stood tall in front of the news cameras and proceeded to place blame on the PATROL OFFICERS! He's going to initiate an IA investigation into the incident! What a disgusting excuse for a leader. Of course, I guess we shouldn't expect any better coming from the same chief that, when Ofc. Hollis was murdered by a gangbanging POS that shot her in the head, goes on the news that same night and claims it was a f'n ACCIDENT, disavows any gang connection, and basically vindicates the suspect from a 1st degree murder charge in front of the media.

Back on track... Personally, I wouldn't be so bad with it if they hadn't made it one-year assignments. I think if team voting was done quarterly, or at least semi-annually, people would be more receptive to it. A one year lock-in is just daunting.
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Old 11-29-2012, 22:39   #16
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Google McKenzie Mattingly, and read about his experience under your chief. White is...well....not our problem down here any more.
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Old 11-29-2012, 23:00   #17
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Quote:
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Google McKenzie Mattingly, and read about his experience under your chief. White is...well....not our problem down here any more.
Ain't that the truth! I don't know ANYBODY that actually cared for that POS.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:11   #18
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We have teams as well. We work 12 hour shifts, so there are really only two teams. A team and B team. Our rotations dont overlap days off/on because of working 12's.

Our rotation is:
2 on, 2 off, 3on, 2 off, 2 on, 3 off.

You work every other weekend. With that being the case, you get you normal days off whenever they fall in your rotation. This applies to holidays and all other days. When it comes time to pick vacation, we do it around this time of year. Our captain hands out a folder with the schedule for the next year and it starts with the most senior officer on each team. Guys then pick their days off, going down the line by seniority. When the last guy picks his days, the schedule goes back to the Captain so he can put vacation days in the computer.

You do not have to pick all of your days at this time. You can add more later if you need to take off for something (if its still open of course). Any unused days can get paid out at the end of each year.

Works very well for us. Holidays off/worked change each year for all officers, just depends on how the days fall in your rotation. Then vacation is picked by seniority. Fair as you can get IMHO.
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Old 11-30-2012, 14:40   #19
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We work 4 12's and off 4. Vaction is first come first serve with no regard to seniority. The trick is you cant put in too soon or too early or they "wont know what the situation will be like at that time".

Putting in for vacation is often a hassle and no guarantee they will approve it.

I can only keep 17 days of vacation with one day accrued each month, hit 17 and it starts rolling into sick leave. It really ticks me off when I start losing my vacation days because they wont let me off.
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Old 11-30-2012, 15:45   #20
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I can only keep 17 days of vacation with one day accrued each month, hit 17 and it starts rolling into sick leave. It really ticks me off when I start losing my vacation days because they wont let me off.

That sounds terrible. I hit my max of 460 hours and I've got 420 hours of comp time, which can be used as time off.

We can also accrue more than the max as long as we used it by December 31st.
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Old 12-02-2012, 16:15   #21
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Patrol works 4 on 4 off. We have 4 districts and each district has 10 patrol teams. Even numbered teams work on the same days while odd numbered teams work together. Each team has a sergeant and anywhere from 8-12 constables depending on the district (at full strength if no one has taken time off or is on a course etc)

Teams 1 and 2 work straight days
A 430-1445 HRS 11 1/4 hrs

The rest of the teams work the following (same shift for the entire week and then move to the next shift time the following week:

B 0645-1745 11 hrs
C 1345-0045 11 hrs
D 1545-0345 12 hrs
E 1845-0545 11 hrs

We are usually back in the office 45 minutes before end of shift provided things aren't too busy.

We end up owing 32 hours a year which are made up by 4 team training days (8 hour shifts) throughout the year.

I like working as a team because you always work with the same people. We have our conflicts at times. Most teams have payroll deductions for a squad fund which pay for our own Christmas parties, summer BBQs, after shift gatherings, etc. Occasionally we challenge other teams (within and outside the district) and play soccer, indoor hockey, etc. Depending on call load we even organize our own team training on shift as well.
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Old 12-04-2012, 13:50   #22
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That sounds terrible. I hit my max of 460 hours and I've got 420 hours of comp time, which can be used as time off.

We can also accrue more than the max as long as we used it by December 31st.
The amount of vacation time you can hold increases with each step increase on the payscale. I started out only holding 13days. Not sure what the max tops out at.
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Old 12-04-2012, 14:47   #23
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The amount of vacation time you can hold increases with each step increase on the payscale. I started out only holding 13days. Not sure what the max tops out at.
We can all hold the same amount, but you accrue it at a faster rate after 5, 10, and 15 years.

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Old 12-04-2012, 16:55   #24
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We can all hold the same amount, but you accrue it at a faster rate after 5, 10, and 15 years.
They screwed us 5 years ago and went to 8.4hrs per month like the 8-5 mon-fri city employees instead of 12. Thats not even one full day off per month. I didn't have enough time in to be grandfathered in and keep my 12hrs per month.

That ticked alot of people off.
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Old 12-04-2012, 21:59   #25
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I love it. Our team has 13 officers, sergeant and lieutenant. Any complaint or problem goes directly to our sgt. who addresses it. We work the same days and times every week. Sat-tues 1500-0100. Makes taking long vacations very easy and planning part times easy as well.

The only downside is if you get stuck with a sgt you don't like with bad days off. I like the team in on so I have a positive outlook. May be different if the opposite were true. Feel free to ask any questions, ill answer as best I can.


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