[countrygun]

Originally Posted by Kilrain

A question more pertinent to the conversation at hand would be if a known child rapist was drowning at the same time your pet dog was drowning and you COULD save only one, which one would you save?

You can substitute Satan, Hitler, Osama bin Laden, an ex-wife, whatever into the equation if you like...........

The person that invented disco.

[Kilrain]

Originally Posted by countrygun

The person that invented disco.

That would work for many people out there...........

[Dogbite]

Originally Posted by Kilrain

A question more pertinent to the conversation at hand would be if a known child rapist was drowning at the same time your pet dog was drowning and you COULD save only one, which one would you save?

You can substitute Satan, Hitler, Osama bin Laden, an ex-wife, whatever into the equation if you like...........

I will let others answer such loaded questions. My comment was on the general idea of x animal being worth x human life. In my opinion, it does not. Although I must say, If I stumble upon Satan drowning, I will let him sink for sure. I still would not truly risk my life to save fido.

[Dogbite]

Originally Posted by countrygun

The person that invented disco.

Ha! Lol.

[Kilrain]

Originally Posted by Dogbite

I will let others answer such loaded questions. My comment was on the general idea of x animal being worth x human life. In my opinion, it does not. Although I must say, If I stumble upon Satan drowning, I will let him sink for sure. I still would not truly risk my life to save fido.

Thanks for not answering the question, just like the OP and a couple others. I expected that.

[crazymoose]

Originally Posted by fnfalman

That may be your personal belief, but it isn't mine.

I'd risk my life to save my pets. I don't necessarily feel the same about other humans or even some of my own family members.

Agreed. I really don't mean this to sound cold, but maybe the family just weren't very good swimmers. The dog managed to get out.

[countrygun]

There is something so overwhelmingly obvious and so basic to this issue and I somehow thinkthat some folks in a combination of arrogance and ignorance overlook when they talk about "risking a life for a dog"

Folks, take it from me I have been around a lot of years, and I have lived near the ocean long enough to actually watch a fishingboat go down in the mouth of the river and lose all 4 hands on board within yards of land. The bar was just to rough. I have been nearby when 2 tourists were washed off the rocks. we lose folks almost evey year, so I say this from real experience.

99% of the time people are oblivious to the fact they are 'RISKING THEIR LIVES". It isn't an "I think I will risk my life to do "X" type of decision. I tried to imply this but apparently some folks are so set on reassuring themselves that it couldn't happen to them because they are smarter, and they can't grasp it.

The real cause of this tragedy was the not the parents tesching a kid about animals being human, it was their failure to UNDERSTAND AND TEACH THE KID TO RESPECT THE OCEAN AND THEY DIDN'T RESPECT IT EITHER

Like I said , we lose people evey year without an animal to blame. We have lost tourists who climbed out on a jetty right past the sign that said "Do Not Climb Past This Point" No dogs involved. we lose tourists because they climb of large driftwood pieces in or near the water, despite the fact that there are signs at nearly every accesible beach that warn them not to.

Respect for the ocean is drilled into the heads of kids here since their first beach trip. It is ALWAYS Tourists off the beach and overconfident boaters, amature or pro, who have become complacent. The incident I mentioned was a new Captain at the helm who made every mistake he could have.

To blame this on the feelings for the dog is like saying that someone who was killed in an accident, running a stop sign on a quick trip to the store for a carton of milk "Risked and lost their life because of their love of milk" No, they didn't respect the rules of the road.


lifetime locals here in our area are never the names in the paper, They have been raised with respect for the ocan, not having it makes it dangerous to go to the beach.

[JuneyBooney]

Originally Posted by itisbruno

My dog can swim.








Hell, he could pull me out with that little stick.

Cool pics. Nice looking pup.

[Arc Angel]

Originally Posted by GreenDrake

It sounds like your god is trying to kill you.

Part of what you say is true! Between the two of us He might be only, 'my God'; however; 'my God' is, also, Lord over you, as well; and it remains to be seen which one of us finally makes it; and which one does not.

(That's pretty good thinking on your part, though! Certainly better than you usually do.)



Perhaps I should be a little more kind. Here, maybe this will help you out:

'I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and unforeseen circumstance happeneth to them all.'

'For a man knoweth not his time: As fish are taken in an evil net, and as birds are caught in a snare, so are the sons of men captured at an unexpected moment, when that which is evil falleth, suddenly, upon them.' - Ecclesiastes 9:11-12

And then there is,

'We know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.' - Romans 8:28

[RayB]

Originally Posted by Arc Angel

True! Between the two of us He might be only, 'my God'; however; 'my God' is, also, Lord over you, too; and it remains to be seen which one of us finally makes it; and which one does not.

The idea is "Stewardship".

Nobody can pay for the sins of the past. But someday, we must answer for them, if we are ever to lay them to rest...

Mods, relax... I researched and wrote what follows...

Sacred Silence

In memory of Martha

For Allan W. Eckert, who remembered very well…

While vocal in matters of fraternization and love, pigeons and doves have no sound for pain…

In oceans of air, before men were there,
the passengers flew through our skies.
Their power and grace, men would not embrace,
their beauty was lost to their eyes.

At home in the skies and kin to the earth,
their dominant cousins would not see their worth.
Within walls of sound, the flocks could abound,
in numbers described best with awe.

Borne of the dove, they glided above,
a land that gave promise to life.
Then now-enter man, no respect for the land,
he brought murder and wastage and strife.

Men plundered and ravaged, they murdered and savaged,
then built up a cult with lost lives.
By wheel and woe, they had chosen their foe,
while they bragged to their children and wives.

Men sat by their fires and learned through the wires,
the movements of flocks through the seasons.
The birds had no chance, men could tell with a glance,
at the maps they had wrought with their reason.

With established intent, these men were hell-bent,
on ridding the world of this “plight”
They rose with the dawn, then stifled a yawn,
and went out to fight the “good fight”.

They brandished their guns, those fathers and sons,
and wholesale slaughter began.
They took and they took and with no second look,
they wreaked havoc again and again!

But the birds, they were strong, though gentle their song,
sheer numbers ensured their survival.
Familiar with strife, they’d succeeded with life,
they did well up until man’s arrival…

Still, who can withstand the onslaught of man,
as he mindlessly schemes to the end?
As a man of my time, I can say with clear mind,
that many would do it again…

A few minds prevail, to hand down the tale,
that somehow got lost over time.
Won’t they sing of the hunt? Won’t they brag of the sport?
Won’t they put it to music or rhyme?

Tell tales of the sport, to sew shut the eyes,
of the cock that they tied to the stool.
Their pole-men and clubs, their nets and their knives,
gave new definition to cruel.

Tell tales of the nights, filled with cries of the young,
as they called out in vain to the stars.
While brave men contrived to burn them alive,
up in flames went their souls—what of ours?

Forget not the youths, with their innocence lost,
that survived to the dank forest floor.
Men tore off their heads, then returned to their beds,
so sure there would always be more.

Men killed all they could, in meadow and wood.
The wounded, they left without pity.
And those that survived, they were shot from the skies,
from rooftops, by men in the city.

They called it a “hunt”. Some said it was ”sport”.
Some tried to relate it to science...
They were smart as men go, but did anyone know,
that a dove bears its pain in proud silence?

Magnificent tribe, you once graced our skies,
but I cannot confess that we cared.
Now it’s too late to cry, for we’ve wounded the sky,
would we’ve stopped had your voices been heard?

Today, few remember the Passenger Pigeon,
some reach in their efforts to find.
But it’s too late to try, for we’ve wounded the sky,
and these words, more than fair, have been kind.


On September 1st, 1914, the last Passenger Pigeon, Martha, died in a Cincinnati zoo. A social creature, she was said to have constantly scanned the skies for the flock that never came; and she became agitated at the sight of a Mourning Dove, which closely resembled her kind.

© Copyright, 2002

While no one today can pay for a travesty of history, if we care to insure that it won’t be repeated, we must account for it, apologize, and guarantee that it will never be allowed to happen again; only then, may we put the matter to rest, and move on.

--RB

P.S. On 12/01/2012, my wish of a lifetime, my lifetime, is that we finally acknowledge, and put this matter to rest.

[Arc Angel]

Originally Posted by RayB

The idea is "Stewardship".

Nobody can pay for the sins of the past. But someday, we must answer for them, if we are ever to lay them to rest ...

....... (Ode To Martha)

P.S. On 12/01/2012, my wish of a lifetime, my lifetime, is that we finally acknowledge, and put this matter to rest.

Ray, that's a beautiful poem! Thank you.

Answering for, 'the sins of the past' is a big part of life; isn't it. I, also, agree with you: We are stewards over our pets and livestock; and this stewardship makes every husbandman - in a very real spiritual sense - responsible for the ethical treatment and gentle care of all God's creatures.

'A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.' - Proverbs 12:10

[GreenDrake]

Arc, I understand you have a penchant to proselytize but your god is not lord over me. You have chosen to embrace your biggest weakness and I do not condemn you for that, it is your choice.

[Arc Angel]

Originally Posted by GreenDrake

Arc, I understand you have a penchant to proselytize but your god is not lord over me. You have chosen to embrace your biggest weakness and I do not condemn you for that, it is your choice.

Don't be ridiculous! I have no, 'penchant to proselytize'. I'm perfectly willing to let you go to Hell all by yourself. (Won't bother me in the least!)

What I am possessed of is a multi-dimensional personal intellect; and my interests are broad ranging. What do you think? That all I want to do is talk about stupid guns and shooting all day long! I'm, also, a moral man who believes that modern technology without ancient morality is a sure and certain way for anyone to destroy his very own soul.

My social manners are, also, much better than yours. If - IF - I were to disbelieve in God I wouldn't do what you and your ilk do, and go onto the Internet to offend, or take, 'cheap shots' at everyone with better developed religious sense.

You guys can be such big crybabies! You're, all, really good at dishing it out; but, when you get it back, all you do is whine and complain. Speak for yourself there, GD. Personally I don't want to be remembered as a, 'great gunman', or a guy who really knew shooting, and his Glocks. I'd much rather be remembered as a faithful and loyal Christian, instead.

If my posts, their content, or viewpoint, offend you, ....... well, instead of taking, 'cheap shots' and posting snide remarks the way you usually do, how about trying the, 'Ignore' button. (But you don't have that sort of social etiquette; do you!)

[UtahIrishman]

boy this thread sure has diverged...cool poem

[RayB]

Originally Posted by Arc Angel

Don't be ridiculous! I have no, 'penchant to proselytize'. I'm perfectly willing to let you go to Hell all by yourself. (Won't bother me in the least!)

Ah, but it will; and it does; and that old friend, is the price you pay and will continue to pay; while he does not, and will not.

The real difference is, I'll remember you.

It sucks being complex!

--Ray

[RayB]

Originally Posted by UtahIrishman

1) boy this thread sure has diverged...

2) cool poem

1) Perhaps, it needed to. Perhaps, it's time.

2) Thank you! I put all of me into that...

--Ray

[railfancwb]

Thoughts from elsewhere...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...jemLifeStyle_h




Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

[NeverMore1701]

Originally Posted by Arc Angel

Don't be ridiculous! I have no, 'penchant to proselytize'. I'm perfectly willing to let you go to Hell all by yourself. (Won't bother me in the least!)

What I am possessed of is a multi-dimensional personal intellect; and my interests are broad ranging. What do you think? That all I want to do is talk about stupid guns and shooting all day long! I'm, also, a moral man who believes that modern technology without ancient morality is a sure and certain way for anyone to destroy his very own soul.

My social manners are, also, much better than yours. If - IF - I were to disbelieve in God I wouldn't do what you and your ilk do, and go onto the Internet to offend, or take, 'cheap shots' at everyone with better developed religious sense.

You guys can be such big crybabies! You're, all, really good at dishing it out; but, when you get it back, all you do is whine and complain. Speak for yourself there, GD. Personally I don't want to be remembered as a, 'great gunman', or a guy who really knew shooting, and his Glocks. I'd much rather be remembered as a faithful and loyal Christian, instead.

If my posts, their content, or viewpoint, offend you, ....... well, instead of taking, 'cheap shots' and posting snide remarks the way you usually do, how about trying the, 'Ignore' button. (But you don't have that sort of social etiquette; do you!)

If only there was a subforum dedicated to religious drivel....

[RayB]

Originally Posted by NeverMore1701

If only there was a subforum dedicated to religious drivel....

But you can ask about extraterrestrial life, and have Rabbi or devildog go off on mathematics, probabilities, and subatomic particle behavior?

Not that that's a problem, since some things are interwoven, like space and time, eternity and God...

I, for one, care what AA has to say! Because this is an issue pertaining to our moral compass, and religious belief is a part of that, that nearly ineffable part, that's worth all the rest.

How dreary, if numbers told the whole story...

By the bye, I want your input too!

--Ray

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by TKM

Could Kingarthur....... please change his user name so I no longer despise any otherwise innocent historical figure?

Or, alternatively, you could resign from PITA.

[Foxterriermom]

Gentleman, the boy going in after his dog was 16 years old. Some of you are approaching this as if he had the reasoning skills of an older man with life experience behind him that would have helped him to make a more rational decision. What sort of clear-headed decision would any of us had made at this age in this particular situation under the same circumstances?

He saw a pet that he presumably loved very, very much in what he thought was a life-threatening situation, and he more than likely gave very little thought if any to his own safety when he went in after the dog. His action was reactional instinct to a stressful situation. His thought process probably went no farther than "my dog is in trouble and I need to save him" and nothing more or nothing less.

This is what young people do. They make many mistakes in their formative years which is how most of us learn how to successfully deal with situations later in life, but unfortunately in this case, it was a fatal mistake.

To draw any conclusion that the boy considered the dog his equal is merely conjecture. The conclusion we can draw however, is that he loved his dog. That is the most admirable part of the tragic story.

[maxmanta]

You're all aware that killing a police dog is treated the same as if you had killed a human police officer, right?

Local governments have already decided that a dog's life is not only equal to a human's, but is actually more important.

That being said, I would risk my life to save my cat. No, he is not human. But that does not make him unimportant.

[maxmanta]

Originally Posted by Arc Angel

Don't be ridiculous! I have no, 'penchant to proselytize'. I'm perfectly willing to let you go to Hell all by yourself. (Won't bother me in the least!)

What I am possessed of is a multi-dimensional personal intellect; and my interests are broad ranging. What do you think? That all I want to do is talk about stupid guns and shooting all day long! I'm, also, a moral man who believes that modern technology without ancient morality is a sure and certain way for anyone to destroy his very own soul.

My social manners are, also, much better than yours. If - IF - I were to disbelieve in God I wouldn't do what you and your ilk do, and go onto the Internet to offend, or take, 'cheap shots' at everyone with better developed religious sense.

You guys can be such big crybabies! You're, all, really good at dishing it out; but, when you get it back, all you do is whine and complain. Speak for yourself there, GD. Personally I don't want to be remembered as a, 'great gunman', or a guy who really knew shooting, and his Glocks. I'd much rather be remembered as a faithful and loyal Christian, instead.

If my posts, their content, or viewpoint, offend you, ....... well, instead of taking, 'cheap shots' and posting snide remarks the way you usually do, how about trying the, 'Ignore' button. (But you don't have that sort of social etiquette; do you!)

Excellent post!

You should be on Reddit. It could use more people like you.

[RayB]

Originally Posted by maxmanta

You're all aware that killing a police dog is treated the same as if you had killed a human police officer, right?

Local governments have already decided that a dog's life is not only equal to a human's, but is actually more important.

That being said, I would risk my life to save my cat. No, he is not human. But that does not make him unimportant.

Nicely said!

Bernie is definitely worth risking my life for; I would not hesitate. I would also use deadly force to defend him.

No, Bernie is not human. He's better than that!

--Ray

[Kilrain]

Originally Posted by Arc Angel

:What I am possessed of is a multi-dimensional personal intellect; and my interests are broad ranging.

You and Charlie Sheen and Bigfoot........