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Old 11-27-2012, 21:39   #181
WilliamDahl
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Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
What were the details? Vid looked bad. I thought 9, as well.
This here, perhaps?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25...olice-gunfire/
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Old 11-27-2012, 21:43   #182
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"Police have determined that three people were struck by whole bullets -- two of which were removed from victims at the hospital -- and the rest were grazed "by fragments of some sort," Kelly said."
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Old 11-27-2012, 22:19   #183
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"Police have determined that three people were struck by whole bullets -- two of which were removed from victims at the hospital -- and the rest were grazed "by fragments of some sort," Kelly said."
In other words, what comes out your barrel has to end up somewhere. Bullets don't just magically turn to dust and stop when they hit a wall or the street. They can fragment and those fragments might end up in a place that it might be preferred that they not end up. We like to say that you should be sure of your target and your backstop when you are shooting at something, but sometimes, all the choices available to you are not good. If the cops didn't shoot, they're in danger of being shot by the guy who quickly turned around and pointed the handgun towards them. There's also the chance that anyone behind the cops could have been shot. Now, an argument could be made that the cops posed more danger to the surrounding people than the original assailant did due to the larger number of round that they carried and subsequently shot, but no one in their right mind is going to let the other guy get the first shot in a situation like this before returning fire.

OK, technically, if the other person hasn't already shot, I guess it's not returning fire...
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Old 11-27-2012, 22:23   #184
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Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
In other words, what comes out your barrel has to end up somewhere. Bullets don't just magically turn to dust and stop when they hit a wall or the street. They can fragment and those fragments might end up in a place that it might be preferred that they not end up. We like to say that you should be sure of your target and your backstop when you are shooting at something, but sometimes, all the choices available to you are not good. If the cops didn't shoot, they're in danger of being shot by the guy who quickly turned around and pointed the handgun towards them. There's also the chance that anyone behind the cops could have been shot. Now, an argument could be made that the cops posed more danger to the surrounding people than the original assailant did due to the larger number of round that they carried and subsequently shot, but no one in their right mind is going to let the other guy get the first shot in a situation like this before returning fire.

OK, technically, if the other person hasn't already shot, I guess it's not returning fire...
Absolutely.

Especially the part in bold.
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Old 11-27-2012, 22:51   #185
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In other words, what comes out your barrel has to end up somewhere. Bullets don't just magically turn to dust and stop when they hit a wall or the street. They can fragment and those fragments might end up in a place that it might be preferred that they not end up. We like to say that you should be sure of your target and your backstop when you are shooting at something, but sometimes, all the choices available to you are not good. If the cops didn't shoot, they're in danger of being shot by the guy who quickly turned around and pointed the handgun towards them. There's also the chance that anyone behind the cops could have been shot. Now, an argument could be made that the cops posed more danger to the surrounding people than the original assailant did due to the larger number of round that they carried and subsequently shot, but no one in their right mind is going to let the other guy get the first shot in a situation like this before returning fire.

OK, technically, if the other person hasn't already shot, I guess it's not returning fire...
Just to play devils advocate, couldn't we make the argument that the police choosing to take the suspect down in a crowded area as they did actually posed more danger to the public than did the original shooting? If I remember correctly, the guy was only there to shoot a couple of people with whom he had a dispute, not to go on a shooting spree and harm the general public. After he shot the two people he was after, he would have left. However, the police showed up and engaged in a gunfight with the suspect in a crowded street outside the Empire State Building, which greatly increased the amount of bullets flying through the air and as a result also increased very significanly the danger to the general public. Of course, The responding officers most certainly would not have known what the suspect's intentions were and therefore thought it best to try and neutralize the suspect immediately. After all, he had just shot two people. However, I think the shootout between the police and suspect undeniably had the result of placing the people in the area in greater danger than the original shooting did. The police could not possibly have known this at the time and therefore could not be expected to have considered it, but that's what happened.

Just putting that out there.
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Old 11-27-2012, 23:02   #186
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The responding officers most certainly would not have known what the suspect's intentions were and therefore thought it best to try and neutralize the suspect immediately.
Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy W View Post
After all, he had just shot two people. However, I think the shootout between the police and suspect undeniably had the result of placing the people in the area in greater danger than the original shooting did. The police could not possibly have known this at the time and therefore could not be expected to have considered it, but that's what happened.

Just putting that out there.
Yes.
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Old 11-29-2012, 00:32   #187
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Back to shot placement. Is it possible that not all head shots have the effect of immediate incapacitation? I'm not talking about a shot that glances off the skull or goes through the jaw and misses the brain. What I mean is can a bullet go through certain parts of the brain and not immediately kill or incapacitate someone. I've seen diagrams and targets where there is a triangle That goes roughly from just above the eye sockets and tapers down, ending around the base of the nose. Does this mean you can hit them in the brain but outside this area they may not go down immediately and therefore continue to fight for a time?
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:10   #188
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Originally Posted by Andy W View Post
Just to play devils advocate, couldn't we make the argument that the police choosing to take the suspect down in a crowded area as they did actually posed more danger to the public than did the original shooting? If I remember correctly, the guy was only there to shoot a couple of people with whom he had a dispute, not to go on a shooting spree and harm the general public. After he shot the two people he was after, he would have left. However, the police showed up and engaged in a gunfight with the suspect in a crowded street outside the Empire State Building, which greatly increased the amount of bullets flying through the air and as a result also increased very significanly the danger to the general public. Of course, The responding officers most certainly would not have known what the suspect's intentions were and therefore thought it best to try and neutralize the suspect immediately. After all, he had just shot two people. However, I think the shootout between the police and suspect undeniably had the result of placing the people in the area in greater danger than the original shooting did. The police could not possibly have known this at the time and therefore could not be expected to have considered it, but that's what happened.

Just putting that out there.
Nice to have the luxury of being able to call the play on Monday morning.

and if the suspect had taken a hostage, ot wasn't done yet?

If the guy had killed one more person after the police had him spotted then they would be getting blamed for NOT taking him immediately


Society asks these people to do things most people are unwilling and unable to do. on a good day, when everything goes perfectly, they still end up with at least 25% of the armchair experts telling them that they should have done it differently. I think we should be grateful that we have people still willing to make thosed decisions at all.

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Old 11-29-2012, 07:54   #189
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I agree that the police have some really difficult decisions to make with out much timeor all of the facts. Now, I also ink that police should be held to a higher standard than these two demonstrated. I think that the difference between 'stop' and 'kill' is lost far too many times. I agree that in many cases the outcome is the same but shooting until you run out of ammo even if the bg is down is not acceptable.
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Old 11-29-2012, 08:47   #190
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Originally Posted by Andy W View Post
Back to shot placement. Is it possible that not all head shots have the effect of immediate incapacitation? I'm not talking about a shot that glances off the skull or goes through the jaw and misses the brain. What I mean is can a bullet go through certain parts of the brain and not immediately kill or incapacitate someone. I've seen diagrams and targets where there is a triangle That goes roughly from just above the eye sockets and tapers down, ending around the base of the nose. Does this mean you can hit them in the brain but outside this area they may not go down immediately and therefore continue to fight for a time?
If you want *immediate* incapacitation, you need to sever the brain stem. "Immediate" as in it is not possible for the person to even pull the trigger if they have a cocked gun to the head of a hostage. Having grown up on a ranch, periodically, we might have to put down a cow due to illness or whatever. It is entirely possible to accomplish this with a .22LR at extremely close range by aiming between the eyes and towards the back of the skull where the brain connects to the spinal column. It is like turning off a light switch. At worst, you get a slight shudder and then the head drops.

Just poking a hole through the brain does not stop a person. There have been people who have walked into the emergency room at a hospital after having shot themselves with a nail gun. There are parts of the brain that do not control motor functions and putting a hole through those parts of the brain will not necessarily kill a person or even stop them from doing whatever they are doing.

http://www.inquisitr.com/184504/man-...ng-to-hospital
Caliber Corner

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2...-in-mans-brain

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3685791.stm
Caliber Corner

http://www.medicaldaily.com/articles...ain-injury.htm
Caliber Corner

Last edited by WilliamDahl; 11-29-2012 at 15:24..
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Old 11-29-2012, 15:43   #191
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I agree that the police have some really difficult decisions to make with out much timeor all of the facts. Now, I also ink that police should be held to a higher standard than these two demonstrated. I think that the difference between 'stop' and 'kill' is lost far too many times. I agree that in many cases the outcome is the same but shooting until you run out of ammo even if the bg is down is not acceptable.
Have you seen the video?
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Old 11-29-2012, 15:48   #192
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Have you seen the video?
Would you care to post a link to it?
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Old 11-29-2012, 16:16   #193
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Would you care to post a link to it?
Sure.

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Old 12-01-2012, 06:24   #194
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Originally Posted by tcruse View Post
I agree that the police have some really difficult decisions to make with out much timeor all of the facts. Now, I also ink that police should be held to a higher standard than these two demonstrated. I think that the difference between 'stop' and 'kill' is lost far too many times. I agree that in many cases the outcome is the same but shooting until you run out of ammo even if the bg is down is not acceptable.
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Would you care to post a link to it?
The innocents hit in that video were struck with fragments from ricochet rounds. It is very unfortunate, but is a fact of life in the big city where there is a lot of concrete and asphalt. The LEO's on scene did a good job stopping the threat. Was it perfect? I say "no," but show me how many shooters could have done better under the circumstances. I am not talking about Monday morning quarterbacks either, I am talking about real shootings under the duress of life and death situations, with tens or maybe hundreds of innocents in the area. This changes the perspective on things a bit, doesn't it?

BTW, those NYPD cops were working overtime in that area, and were from one of the busier precincts.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:06   #195
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The innocents hit in that video were struck with fragments from ricochet rounds. It is very unfortunate, but is a fact of life in the big city where there is a lot of concrete and asphalt. The LEO's on scene did a good job stopping the threat. Was it perfect? I say "no," but show me how many shooters could have done better under the circumstances. I am not talking about Monday morning quarterbacks either, I am talking about real shootings under the duress of life and death situations, with tens or maybe hundreds of innocents in the area. This changes the perspective on things a bit, doesn't it?

BTW, those NYPD cops were working overtime in that area, and were from one of the busier precincts.
I'm not one of those people who blindly believe everything that cops say or support everything that they do. I've met too many cops over the years who are just on a power trip and have no business being an officer. That said, I cannot really find any fault in the actions of the officers in this incident. It was a crappy situation and they made the best of it with minimum collateral damage.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:00   #196
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I'm not one of those people who blindly believe everything that cops say or support everything that they do. I've met too many cops over the years who are just on a power trip and have no business being an officer. That said, I cannot really find any fault in the actions of the officers in this incident. It was a crappy situation and they made the best of it with minimum collateral damage.
And I'm not saying cops do everything perfectly, either. It's just that the factors in the incident in question were blown out of proportion by the media.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:25   #197
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And I'm not saying cops do everything perfectly, either. It's just that the factors in the incident in question were blown out of proportion by the media.
Which is not that different than anything else addressed by the liberal media. Sensationalism sells... The *truth* just gets in the way of a good story... :(
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Old 12-01-2012, 10:33   #198
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You do realize that they didn't really shoot nine innocent bystanders, right?
The story said that nine bystanders were wounded by police gunfire. Or did I read it wrong?
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:57   #199
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I think shot placement is more important than caliber... to an extent... if you cannot hit the broad side of a barn.. even a cannon won't suffice..
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:09   #200
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I think shot placement is more important than caliber... to an extent... if you cannot hit the broad side of a barn.. even a cannon won't suffice..
Or as we used to say, "Close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades, and nuclear depth charges"...

Now, if you can't hit the broad side of a barn, then you need to just up your caliber a bit... A 16 incher like from the New Jersey (BB-62) would be the perfect thing for you... During Vietnam, a single HC round fired into the jungle would create a helicopter LZ that was 200 yds in diameter and would defoliate trees for an additional 300 yds after that. One might argue that you only would need to get *close to* a barn with one of those rounds...
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