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Old 11-26-2012, 19:46   #161
clarkz71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdcremer View Post
The FBI has done a lot of bullet testing and they still chose to stick with the .40 S&W.
They do, and they issue G23's to agents out of the academy last I heard.

But what are the chances they know more then
internet commando's?? . (sarcasm)
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Old 11-26-2012, 20:05   #162
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
The NYC shooting goes to show you what one gets with poor shooting skills, NYC should enact a whole new, comprehensive training program.
Why do you say that?
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Old 11-26-2012, 22:14   #163
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Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
They do, and they issue G23's to agents out of the academy last I heard.

But what are the chances they know more then
internet commando's?? . (sarcasm)
With a large organization like that, their requirements are different than might be a single person's requirements. They want to standardize their weapons. They want to have something small enough that people with smaller hand or slighter builds can easily fire. For the agents who can handle full power 10mm loads, they probably get kind of shortchanged.
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Old 11-26-2012, 23:13   #164
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Originally Posted by bdcremer View Post
When SHTF there are many things we say we will do however, these things are tremendously more difficult when the lead starts flinging. The FBI has done a lot of bullet testing and they still chose to stick with the .40 S&W.
Do you use a handheld flashlight like this?

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Old 11-27-2012, 00:30   #165
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Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
With a large organization like that, their requirements are different than might be a single person's requirements. They want to standardize their weapons...

This.

Anyones who thinks the FBI is infallible either does not know of or has forgotten this:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy...ill_haunt.html
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:10   #166
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Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
For the agents who can handle full power 10mm loads, they probably get kind of shortchanged.
Back when they adopted the 10mm they
down loaded it to the 10 lite 180/950
They never issued full power 10mm loads

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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
This.

Anyones who thinks the FBI is infallible either does not know of or has forgotten this:
What does the crime lab have to do with
ballistic testing?
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:40   #167
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
This.

Anyones who thinks the FBI is infallible either does not know of or has forgotten this:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy...ill_haunt.html
I've never been under the mistaken notion that the legal system was about finding "truth" or dispensing "justice". Their job performance is rated by how many convictions that they get and the possible innocence of a suspect is just an inconvenient fact that can be gotten around if necessary.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:44   #168
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Originally Posted by clarkz71 View Post
Back when they adopted the 10mm they
down loaded it to the 10 lite 180/950
They never issued full power 10mm loads
My understanding was that during the initial testing phase, it was determined that the full power 10mm loads proved to be too much for the smaller agents, so they then downloaded it to the 10mm-lite (which eventually became the .40SW when the brass was shortened, primer size switched to small, and maximum pressure reduced).

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with their reasoning in this, just that what might be appropriate for a large group of people will not necessarily be appropriate for one particular person.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:52   #169
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That's true, the should have kept the 10mm
and let those that could qualify with full
power loads use them & give the others the
10mm lite. Everyone has the same gun just
a different load
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:08   #170
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My understanding was that during the initial testing phase, it was determined that the full power 10mm loads proved to be too much for the smaller agents, so they then downloaded it to the 10mm-lite (which eventually became the .40SW when the brass was shortened, primer size switched to small, and maximum pressure reduced).

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with their reasoning in this, just that what might be appropriate for a large group of people will not necessarily be appropriate for one particular person.
No. I believe clarkz71 was correct. Before any initial testing the specification stated that no pistol tested should have a load with more momentum that the standard 230gn .45ACP ball. At that point no consideration was given to the 10mm. It was a 10mm enthuiast on the team who gaot permission to add it and handloaded it with 180gn bullets to that momentum. In that form it scored highest on the battery of tests by a small margin over the .45ACP and the FBI ordered a very large batch of ammunition to the 10mm lite specification to go with their new pistols.

The pistols they chose were single stack magazine and just a little heavier than the 1911 Government so recoil was quite mild and anyone who could shoot the 1911 could shoot that 10mm. The rest is just rumours that spread on their own or were spread for malicious reasons.

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Old 11-27-2012, 09:20   #171
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Why do you say that?
Because the NYPD had a highly-publicized shooting where they fired dozens of rounds and accidentally shot nine innocent bystander civilians.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:51   #172
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The rest is just rumours that spread on their own or were spread for malicious reasons.
I don't have any vested interest one way or the other on the 10mm. It's just one of numerous calibers that I own. Each serve a purpose (or I just bought the firearm for the 'ell of it). Although I probably like a M1911 better than any other firearm, I suspect that it is because that is what I have shot the most over the years, either in the military or afterwards. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I like an exposed hammer single action semi-auto. Sometimes I carry a .45, sometimes a .357SIG, sometimes a 10mm. I have even been known to carry a subcompact 9mm and .22LR / .22mag "mouse gun", but that's for when I'm visiting places that are either rather anti-2nd-Amendment or *extremely* anti-2nd-Amendment.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:55   #173
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Fixed. Welcome to Glocktalk.

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Old 11-27-2012, 12:16   #174
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Father(45lc), and son(45acp), That's my kind of family!!!
Father(45LC), Son(.45ACP), and Holy Spirit(10MM)

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Old 11-27-2012, 13:35   #175
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Do you use a handheld flashlight like this?

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Old 11-27-2012, 14:24   #176
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Because the NYPD had a highly-publicized shooting where they fired dozens of rounds and accidentally shot nine innocent bystander civilians.
You do realize that they didn't really shoot nine innocent bystanders, right?
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Old 11-27-2012, 19:03   #177
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I own .38 Special, 9mm, .40s, .45 ACP and .357 SIG.

I carry 9mm almost exclusively in an urban environment. Here is why it makes sense for me in that situation:

1. I'm carrying Speer factory 124 gr Gold Dot +p which has a proven street and lab record. There is nothing boutique about it and if it is ever a legal question I can point to several major metropolitan departments with thousands of officers that carry the same load.

2. The wolves travel in ever larger packs these days. For a given size firearm I want the most on tap within that platform that I can have, before a reload is required.

3. Given the above point and that I tend to carry smaller pistols because of my personal logistics, the 9mm meets that requirement better for me. Yeah, I know it's usually only a round or two difference in most cases but I'll take it. Shot placement is king but in a dynamic situation with less than ideal shot placement I'll take the cumulative effect of two less than ideal hits with a 9mm over one less than ideal hit with a larger caliber. (Except 10mm which is known to lift the assailant clean off their feet with even a thumb hit, but it violates the Geneva conventions )

4. I'm a civilian and I don't work in and around vehicles all day so the heavier caliber's auto glass performance is not a factor for me.

5. I can shoot 9mm fast and accurate. In a me vs me comparison I will always outperform myself using 9mm versus another service caliber. Now I might shoot .40 or .45 faster and more accurate than another guy shoots 9mm but I can always out shoot me vs me using 9mm. I could shoot all year with a G27 and be damned good but at the end of that year I would still shoot a G26 that much better.

6. The firearms that I carry most often were all originally designed around the 9mm. I have a gut feel belief that carrying a firearm in the caliber it was originally designed for gives the best reliability and lessens the chance of a freak parts breakage at a bad time.

Do I think the .40 and .45 ACP are more effective by a degree or two? Yup. But given my above perceived personal requirements and situations I think the 9mm is my best choice for most of my carry situations. I think .357 SIG smokes them all in the common service calibers and if I was going to ditch the 9mm for everyday use (I'm not) I would go that route because it somewhat duplicates the famed 125gr .357 Magnum but in a platform that would work for me from a practical carry perspective.

I do carry other calibers in more rural settings but then I usually do have a shotgun or rifle right there so it's moot.

Good discussion.
Great post. It's very reasonable, and well thought out.
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Old 11-27-2012, 19:14   #178
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You do realize that they didn't really shoot nine innocent bystanders, right?
What were the details? Vid looked bad. I thought 9, as well.
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Old 11-27-2012, 21:29   #180
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What were the details? Vid looked bad. I thought 9, as well.
I'd first like to give SCmasterblaster a chance to explain, since he brought it up, and seemed very matter-of-fact in his assertion.
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