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Old 11-22-2012, 22:39   #151
Andy W
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Originally Posted by GlocknamStyle View Post
SHOT PLACEMENT. I've read from one of the articles written by an experienced law enforcer (just forgot his name) that regardless of the caliber, shot placement determines whether a guy shot gets killed (or goes down) immediately or continues moving but drops after some time..If you hit him in the head between the eyes or directly in the heart, regardless of whether you used a .22 cal. or .45 caliber, the person would surely go down and cease to live immediately after..
If a person gets a bullet through the heart they will bleed out and go down but it may not be instant. I believe it is like 10 to 15 seconds (don't quote me on the numbers) that you can continue to function if your heart is completely destroyed. So a person shot through the heart will go down pretty fast but they could continue to fight for several seconds before blood loss and lack of oxygen to the brain makes them go down.

Last edited by Andy W; 11-22-2012 at 23:28..
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Old 11-22-2012, 23:16   #152
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If a person gets a bullet through the heart they will bleed out and go down but it may not be instant.
Correct.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:36   #153
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I own .38 Special, 9mm, .40s, .45 ACP and .357 SIG.

I carry 9mm almost exclusively in an urban environment. Here is why it makes sense for me in that situation:

1. I'm carrying Speer factory 124 gr Gold Dot +p which has a proven street and lab record. There is nothing boutique about it and if it is ever a legal question I can point to several major metropolitan departments with thousands of officers that carry the same load.

2. The wolves travel in ever larger packs these days. For a given size firearm I want the most on tap within that platform that I can have, before a reload is required.

3. Given the above point and that I tend to carry smaller pistols because of my personal logistics, the 9mm meets that requirement better for me. Yeah, I know it's usually only a round or two difference in most cases but I'll take it. Shot placement is king but in a dynamic situation with less than ideal shot placement I'll take the cumulative effect of two less than ideal hits with a 9mm over one less than ideal hit with a larger caliber. (Except 10mm which is known to lift the assailant clean off their feet with even a thumb hit, but it violates the Geneva conventions )

4. I'm a civilian and I don't work in and around vehicles all day so the heavier caliber's auto glass performance is not a factor for me.

5. I can shoot 9mm fast and accurate. In a me vs me comparison I will always outperform myself using 9mm versus another service caliber. Now I might shoot .40 or .45 faster and more accurate than another guy shoots 9mm but I can always out shoot me vs me using 9mm. I could shoot all year with a G27 and be damned good but at the end of that year I would still shoot a G26 that much better.

6. The firearms that I carry most often were all originally designed around the 9mm. I have a gut feel belief that carrying a firearm in the caliber it was originally designed for gives the best reliability and lessens the chance of a freak parts breakage at a bad time.

Do I think the .40 and .45 ACP are more effective by a degree or two? Yup. But given my above perceived personal requirements and situations I think the 9mm is my best choice for most of my carry situations. I think .357 SIG smokes them all in the common service calibers and if I was going to ditch the 9mm for everyday use (I'm not) I would go that route because it somewhat duplicates the famed 125gr .357 Magnum but in a platform that would work for me from a practical carry perspective.

I do carry other calibers in more rural settings but then I usually do have a shotgun or rifle right there so it's moot.

Good discussion.
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Old 11-25-2012, 18:31   #154
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If a person gets a bullet through the heart they will bleed out and go down but it may not be instant. I believe it is like 10 to 15 seconds (don't quote me on the numbers) that you can continue to function if your heart is completely destroyed. So a person shot through the heart will go down pretty fast but they could continue to fight for several seconds before blood loss and lack of oxygen to the brain makes them go down.
This is a very thoughtful description. A violent, murderous felon can do a lot of damage with those 10-15 seconds. That is why I practice for head shots with my G17.
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Old 11-25-2012, 21:47   #155
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This is a very thoughtful description. A violent, murderous felon can do a lot of damage with those 10-15 seconds. That is why I practice for head shots with my G17.
Good idea. It's actually quite possible the '86 FBI shootout in Miami would most likely have ended quite differently had the agents 1) been using heavier bullets in their 9mms as .38s and 2.) practiced head shots. Platt, who inflicted most of the FBI casualties during the fight, was actually mortally wounded fairly early on but was able to continue fighting for several minutes. I believe he actually inflicted most of these casualties after being fatally wounded. He took a 115 grain 9mm JHP through the arm, which continued on into his side, collapsing a lung and stopping less than 2" from his heart. Had the agents been using heavier 124-125 grain + bullets, he would have gone down a lot sooner and wouldn't have been able to kill the two agents or wound as many of the others. Maybe he would have fired a few more shots but it wouldn't have been as bad. In fact, I bet a nice 147 grain Hornady XTP would have done quite well with identical shot placement; probably taking out his heart as well as collapsing both lungs


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Old 11-25-2012, 21:54   #156
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Old 11-25-2012, 23:22   #157
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OK. All good discussions. But in the heat of battle what are the odds that you can make a head shoot? And is he standing still waiting for the shoot? And what about a miss? Where does it go? Remember the last NY shooting. 9 bystanders shot by LE taking down the bad guy. So, if in that situation (with my 9) certainly would not shoot once and wait 15 seconds, but enough to stop the threat. How many times? From reports I have read. (no I am not LE) Depending on size, (9 through 45), and bullet type, 2.1 to 2.4 rounds to stop a threat. Yes 9 was the highest (but many researched were FMJ). However the conclusions were that shot placement is #1, so carry what you can shoot well, not the biggest you have in the closet.
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Old 11-25-2012, 23:45   #158
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OK. All good discussions. But in the heat of battle what are the odds that you can make a head shoot? And is he standing still waiting for the shoot? And what about a miss? Where does it go? Remember the last NY shooting. 9 bystanders shot by LE taking down the bad guy. So, if in that situation (with my 9) certainly would not shoot once and wait 15 seconds, but enough to stop the threat. How many times? From reports I have read. (no I am not LE) Depending on size, (9 through 45), and bullet type, 2.1 to 2.4 rounds to stop a threat. Yes 9 was the highest (but many researched were FMJ). However the conclusions were that shot placement is #1, so carry what you can shoot well, not the biggest you have in the closet.
Stating it like that does not accurately represent what actually happened.
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Old 11-26-2012, 10:58   #159
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OK. All good discussions. But in the heat of battle what are the odds that you can make a head shoot? And is he standing still waiting for the shoot? And what about a miss? Where does it go? Remember the last NY shooting. 9 bystanders shot by LE taking down the bad guy. So, if in that situation (with my 9) certainly would not shoot once and wait 15 seconds, but enough to stop the threat. How many times? From reports I have read. (no I am not LE) Depending on size, (9 through 45), and bullet type, 2.1 to 2.4 rounds to stop a threat. Yes 9 was the highest (but many researched were FMJ). However the conclusions were that shot placement is #1, so carry what you can shoot well, not the biggest you have in the closet.
The NYC shooting goes to show you what one gets with poor shooting skills, NYC should enact a whole new, comprehensive training program.
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Old 11-26-2012, 18:28   #160
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When SHTF there are many things we say we will do however, these things are tremendously more difficult when the lead starts flinging. The FBI has done a lot of bullet testing and they still chose to stick with the .40 S&W.
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Old 11-26-2012, 18:46   #161
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The FBI has done a lot of bullet testing and they still chose to stick with the .40 S&W.
They do, and they issue G23's to agents out of the academy last I heard.

But what are the chances they know more then
internet commando's?? . (sarcasm)
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Old 11-26-2012, 19:05   #162
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The NYC shooting goes to show you what one gets with poor shooting skills, NYC should enact a whole new, comprehensive training program.
Why do you say that?
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Old 11-26-2012, 21:14   #163
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They do, and they issue G23's to agents out of the academy last I heard.

But what are the chances they know more then
internet commando's?? . (sarcasm)
With a large organization like that, their requirements are different than might be a single person's requirements. They want to standardize their weapons. They want to have something small enough that people with smaller hand or slighter builds can easily fire. For the agents who can handle full power 10mm loads, they probably get kind of shortchanged.
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Old 11-26-2012, 22:13   #164
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When SHTF there are many things we say we will do however, these things are tremendously more difficult when the lead starts flinging. The FBI has done a lot of bullet testing and they still chose to stick with the .40 S&W.
Do you use a handheld flashlight like this?

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Old 11-26-2012, 23:30   #165
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With a large organization like that, their requirements are different than might be a single person's requirements. They want to standardize their weapons...

This.

Anyones who thinks the FBI is infallible either does not know of or has forgotten this:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy...ill_haunt.html
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:10   #166
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For the agents who can handle full power 10mm loads, they probably get kind of shortchanged.
Back when they adopted the 10mm they
down loaded it to the 10 lite 180/950
They never issued full power 10mm loads

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This.

Anyones who thinks the FBI is infallible either does not know of or has forgotten this:
What does the crime lab have to do with
ballistic testing?
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:40   #167
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This.

Anyones who thinks the FBI is infallible either does not know of or has forgotten this:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/spy...ill_haunt.html
I've never been under the mistaken notion that the legal system was about finding "truth" or dispensing "justice". Their job performance is rated by how many convictions that they get and the possible innocence of a suspect is just an inconvenient fact that can be gotten around if necessary.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:44   #168
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Back when they adopted the 10mm they
down loaded it to the 10 lite 180/950
They never issued full power 10mm loads
My understanding was that during the initial testing phase, it was determined that the full power 10mm loads proved to be too much for the smaller agents, so they then downloaded it to the 10mm-lite (which eventually became the .40SW when the brass was shortened, primer size switched to small, and maximum pressure reduced).

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with their reasoning in this, just that what might be appropriate for a large group of people will not necessarily be appropriate for one particular person.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:52   #169
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That's true, the should have kept the 10mm
and let those that could qualify with full
power loads use them & give the others the
10mm lite. Everyone has the same gun just
a different load
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:08   #170
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My understanding was that during the initial testing phase, it was determined that the full power 10mm loads proved to be too much for the smaller agents, so they then downloaded it to the 10mm-lite (which eventually became the .40SW when the brass was shortened, primer size switched to small, and maximum pressure reduced).

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with their reasoning in this, just that what might be appropriate for a large group of people will not necessarily be appropriate for one particular person.
No. I believe clarkz71 was correct. Before any initial testing the specification stated that no pistol tested should have a load with more momentum that the standard 230gn .45ACP ball. At that point no consideration was given to the 10mm. It was a 10mm enthuiast on the team who gaot permission to add it and handloaded it with 180gn bullets to that momentum. In that form it scored highest on the battery of tests by a small margin over the .45ACP and the FBI ordered a very large batch of ammunition to the 10mm lite specification to go with their new pistols.

The pistols they chose were single stack magazine and just a little heavier than the 1911 Government so recoil was quite mild and anyone who could shoot the 1911 could shoot that 10mm. The rest is just rumours that spread on their own or were spread for malicious reasons.

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Old 11-27-2012, 08:20   #171
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Why do you say that?
Because the NYPD had a highly-publicized shooting where they fired dozens of rounds and accidentally shot nine innocent bystander civilians.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:51   #172
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The rest is just rumours that spread on their own or were spread for malicious reasons.
I don't have any vested interest one way or the other on the 10mm. It's just one of numerous calibers that I own. Each serve a purpose (or I just bought the firearm for the 'ell of it). Although I probably like a M1911 better than any other firearm, I suspect that it is because that is what I have shot the most over the years, either in the military or afterwards. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I like an exposed hammer single action semi-auto. Sometimes I carry a .45, sometimes a .357SIG, sometimes a 10mm. I have even been known to carry a subcompact 9mm and .22LR / .22mag "mouse gun", but that's for when I'm visiting places that are either rather anti-2nd-Amendment or *extremely* anti-2nd-Amendment.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:55   #173
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Fixed. Welcome to Glocktalk.

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Old 11-27-2012, 11:16   #174
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:35   #175
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