Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-16-2012, 00:27   #21
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,045
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I am not a fan of +P loads in 45acp either, too little gain for the add'l. recoil & slower, accurate follow up shots, especially in small/ltwt guns. Std pressure rounds form 185gr-230gr work fine.
BTW, most avg men are 12" from shoulder to heart on an oblique shot. Never assume your target is going to give you a clear frontal shot. Even then, good chance a forearm is going to catch that bullet first. Now make it a bigger than avg attacker, add all that up & you can see why a 12" min. is what the FBI settled on. DOes that mean a 10" penetration doesn't get it done, maybe, maybe not.
Also remember that breaking the skin requires more penetration than it's thickness would seem to indicate. I recall reading from a respected expert that it was the equivalent of 4" of bare ballistics gel penetration to get through the skin.
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 12:20   #22
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Come on now folks

Really. How much expansion is needed when the bullet is already at .452 inches? The 9mm strives hard to expand to .45 caliber.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2012, 23:56   #23
Andy W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Really. How much expansion is needed when the bullet is already at .452 inches? The 9mm strives hard to expand to .45 caliber.
Not with modern ammo. 9mm JHPs can easily expand to greater than .50 caliber, with .60" not being uncommon and some instances of .70" in 147 grain HSTs. However, the best .45 JHPS can reach .8" with > .9" not being unheard of.

Also, a FMJ wound channel will not be the same diameter as the bullet that made it. They close in on themselves and will probably look more like an ice pick wound. With an FMJ or unexpanded bullet (even expanded ones sometimes), it will be next to impossible to tell what caliber bullet made the wound just from looking at the hole. I've read several reputable sources, including Mas Ayoob that verify this. It's not like on TV where the detective arrives at the crime scene takes one look at the body and says "Yep, they got him with a 9mm" or "holy ****, that's a .45."
Andy W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 14:08   #24
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by attrapereves View Post
It shouldn't matter that much. I've seen gel tests that compare a G30 and a 5" 1911. The only difference is that the JHP shot out of a longer barrel expands slightly more.

Here is a guy who tested loads out of a Springfield XDs (even shorter barrel). http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...o-testing.html

Looks like the ammo performed well.

Also, tnoutdoors9 tested 230gr GoldDots out of a G30 and a 5" 1911. One test used newspaper in jugs and the other was gel, so that might make slight differences. Anyways... the 1911 bullet expanded slightly more than the G30 bullet.

Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr JHP SIM-TEST w/denim - YouTube

Speer Gold Dot .45 ACP 230 gr Test with Denim - YouTube
It looks like this guy got expansion!
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 15:18   #25
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 21,792
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Really. How much expansion is needed when the bullet is already at .452 inches? The 9mm strives hard to expand to .45 caliber.
More expansion is nice but the diff really is getting a bullet to crush tissue & not just push it aside. Given that RNFMJ are like making small, semi sealing puncture wounds, I would take a 9mm that only expands to 45 cal vs a 45 RNFMJ. The perm wound will be larger, damage more tissue, greater/faster blood loss, quicker end to the fight.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 11-21-2012 at 15:20..
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 16:51   #26
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
More expansion is nice but the diff really is getting a bullet to crush tissue & not just push it aside. Given that RNFMJ are like making small, semi sealing puncture wounds, I would take a 9mm that only expands to 45 cal vs a 45 RNFMJ. The perm wound will be larger, damage more tissue, greater/faster blood loss, quicker end to the fight.
That's right - crush it. FMJRN just pushes it aside. That is why I will never rely on FMJRN for defensive purposes.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 18:22   #27
Z28ricer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 916
Send a message via AIM to Z28ricer
HST's work fine from the short barrel.

I also didnt have any complains of recoil with the HST +P's that I carried in my G30 when I had it.
Z28ricer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 18:53   #28
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy W View Post
By the way, I'm gonna go ahead and sort of renege on my claim in my other thread that the .45 is not significantly better than the 9mm. Yes, I still maintain that the 9mm is a perfectly adequate defensive cartridge. However, I think the .45 does offer a substantial advantage in modern loads, namely the Ranger-T and HST. When I wrote my other thread, I was not aware that HSTs and Rangers in .45 were regularly expanding to .90" or greater and still penetrating more than 12." That's almost an inch in diameter. And I think I've seen a test or two where one of these loads actually expanded to just over 1." You have one of those sharp edged mother****ers tearing through you at that size, it's gonna **** your **** up.
I's also seen several .45ACP and 10mm ammo tests where the bullet hit 1" expansion.
__________________
Rocket Scientist
unit1069 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2012, 21:00   #29
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I's also seen several .45ACP and 10mm ammo tests where the bullet hit 1" expansion.
Awesome!
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 13:54   #30
Z71bill
Senior Member
 
Z71bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,684
I have several cases of 9MM +P & +P+ that was purchased back when I was a NOOB and figured that more was power was always better.

Now - I care more about rapid & accurate shot placement than more power.

I can shoot follow up shots - faster & more accurately with standard power loads then I can using +P loads.

I am sure some guys can shoot both the same - and if you can GREAT. I thought the same thing until I did a few timed drills - and the stop watch proved me wrong.

I will from now on be sticking with standard power loads out of my .45 ACP.

The current HP technology seems to get good expansion even out of short barrel guns.

Strange that a few times when I went to buy some Federal HST loads (on line) the standard power loading COST MORE than the +P cartridges. I can only guess that there must be more people buying the +P.

I paid the extra $1 to get standard loads. YMMV
Z71bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 15:07   #31
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
I have several cases of 9MM +P & +P+ that was purchased back when I was a NOOB and figured that more was power was always better.

Now - I care more about rapid & accurate shot placement than more power.

I can shoot follow up shots - faster & more accurately with standard power loads then I can using +P loads.

I am sure some guys can shoot both the same - and if you can GREAT. I thought the same thing until I did a few timed drills - and the stop watch proved me wrong.

I will from now on be sticking with standard power loads out of my .45 ACP.

The current HP technology seems to get good expansion even out of short barrel guns.

Strange that a few times when I went to buy some Federal HST loads (on line) the standard power loading COST MORE than the +P cartridges. I can only guess that there must be more people buying the +P.

I paid the extra $1 to get standard loads. YMMV
Kindly let us know if you ever want to sell off any of the +p or +p+ 9mm rounds.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions

Last edited by SCmasterblaster; 11-29-2012 at 15:08..
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 18:07   #32
Z71bill
Senior Member
 
Z71bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Kindly let us know if you ever want to sell off any of the +p or +p+ 9mm rounds.
I stuck the full cases in my "deep" rainy day SHTF TEOTWAWKI storage - (back of the spare bedroom closet).

Hope someday I can use it to teach my (as of now - unborn) grand-kids how to shoot.

Sad that some of this PREMIUM ammo cost me less than steel case FMJ WM crap does now.

Or if the economy goes to hell maybe I can trade it for food.
Z71bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 18:24   #33
WinterWizard
Senior Member
 
WinterWizard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by dp2002813 View Post
Andy,

IMHO, I would stick with your original idea of avoiding +p. TNoutdoors9 did a .45 +P from Hornady's zombie line 185gr. The expansion was impressive, but again, the sacrifice was penetration depth.
Lack of penetration was most likely due to the 185gr weight. 185gr and below in .45 acp are notorious for lack of penetration due to reduced sectional density. Stick to 200gr and above.
WinterWizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 20:51   #34
ADK_40GLKr
Senior Member
 
ADK_40GLKr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: RFD NY Adks
Posts: 2,205
Blog Entries: 2
.45 from 4.02" barrel

See my recent post in this forum "200 grain (generic?)"

This was a hand loaded generic JHP (or similar) fired from my G38 with a 4.02" barrel. G30 is 3.78"; 0.24" less.

I'd had my doubts as this was stuff I picked up at my Local Gun Store for reloading. But it looks pretty effective. GD & Ranger HAVE TO be better than that.

I seriously doubt your G30 would lose that much velocity in that 1/4 inch less barrel. If you have doubts, try HP designed for "Short Barrels".

Do Gold Dot or Ranger T come in "Short barrel" loadings?
__________________
There's a fundamental flaw in a system that passes laws that put an onerous burden on law-abiding citizens, but fails to prosecute the criminals who break those laws.
ADK_40GLKr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2012, 10:01   #35
mastrbloata
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pinellas Park, Florida
Posts: 2,672
Send a message via Yahoo to mastrbloata
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADK_40GLKr View Post
See my recent post in this forum "200 grain (generic?)"

This was a hand loaded generic JHP (or similar) fired from my G38 with a 4.02" barrel. G30 is 3.78"; 0.24" less.

I'd had my doubts as this was stuff I picked up at my Local Gun Store for reloading. But it looks pretty effective. GD & Ranger HAVE TO be better than that.

I seriously doubt your G30 would lose that much velocity in that 1/4 inch less barrel. If you have doubts, try HP designed for "Short Barrels".

Do Gold Dot or Ranger T come in "Short barrel" loadings?
I know Gold Dot has the "short barrel" loading in 230gr. .45acp. The test I seem to recall always being mentioned about that round is 14" and 3/4".
__________________
"The difference between "global governance" and "world government," is much like the difference between date rape and rape. One begins with seduction; both end in violence."
-Henry Lamb-
mastrbloata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2012, 10:16   #36
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
Lack of penetration was most likely due to the 185gr weight. 185gr and below in .45 acp are notorious for lack of penetration due to reduced sectional density. Stick to 200gr and above.
Excellent understanding of the problem. Many folks don't understand the importance of SD.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 11:18   #37
1canvas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ne ohio
Posts: 2,427
when comparing expansion of calibers in gel many need to concider with frontal shots on people you probably have a 60% chance of hitting or clipping bone.
__________________
Member - Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network
1canvas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 14:48   #38
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy W View Post
Yes, they did. I never said they didn't. I was initially worried the Speer Gold Dot wouldn't expand adequately from the 3.8" barrel in a G30. It did just fine in that video and it puts me at ease. Didn't they have an old 200 grain load which had huge expansion problems?
Thanks. I was going to ask about the G30 barrel length.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2013, 20:16   #39
PrecisionRifleman
Senior Member
 
PrecisionRifleman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,312
I like the 200gr XTP in the G30. The 230gr XTP do well also accuracy wise, but I just have a personal preference for the 200gr.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
PrecisionRifleman

G20SF
Gen4 G23
PrecisionRifleman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2013, 07:47   #40
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy W View Post
Yes, they did. I never said they didn't. I was initially worried the Speer Gold Dot wouldn't expand adequately from the 3.8" barrel in a G30. It did just fine in that video and it puts me at ease. Didn't they have an old 200 grain load which had huge expansion problems?
I'd get some CorBon 185gr JHP +p rounds. They will expand coming out of a G30.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:33.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 552
159 Members
393 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31