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Old 11-19-2012, 12:50   #126
SCmasterblaster
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Originally Posted by WilliamDahl View Post
How about a .45 win mag?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Winchester_Magnum

230gr at 1400 fps
300gr at 1150 fps
The .45 Winchester Magnum is a very powerful cartridge!!
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Old 11-19-2012, 15:23   #127
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The .45 Winchester Magnum is a very powerful cartridge!!
Yes it is. If you're defending yourself against grizzly bears it would be a great choice.

For anti-personnel use? I'll take a .45acp.
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Old 11-19-2012, 17:06   #128
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
The .45 Winchester Magnum is a very powerful cartridge!!
Or the .460 Rowland...

Now, if you were to take a Para P14-45 and convert it to .460 Rowland, you would have a serious backup gun for hog hunting.
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Old 11-19-2012, 18:17   #129
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With 9mm, I can pretty much mag dump and get all my shots in the vitals at 21ft. With 45 it's a lot more deliberate. With 40 I just think what a stupid caliber it is.[/QUOTE]

If that is how you feel about 40, you must think the 10mm and magnum revolver guys are plum crazy.

Seriously it all depends on practice and pistol selection. With an M9 it is easy to pop off 9mm quickly with pretty good accuracy. A lot harder to do with a baby G26 in 9 or G36 in 45. Try 40 in a G20 - I have found you can run these off very quickly like a 9mm. Heavy slide damps recoil very nicely. That said, I don't choose them for SD loads.
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Old 11-21-2012, 13:13   #130
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Yes it is. If you're defending yourself against grizzly bears it would be a great choice.

For anti-personnel use? I'll take a .45acp.
The recoil would likely break my hand!
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Old 11-21-2012, 14:08   #131
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Yes it is. If you're defending yourself against grizzly bears it would be a great choice.

For anti-personnel use? I'll take a .45acp.
But the advantage of the .45 win mag (or the .460 Rowland for that matter) is that you can still supposedly shoot the .45ACP rounds in them.

Just like with the 10mm -- you don't have to shoot full power loads, you can shoot the 10mm-lite "FBI loads" that they created for their female agents (which eventually was made into the .40SW caliber).

Hell, I've got .357mag loads that I periodically shoot for pests (armadillos, 'possums, etc) that are 158 gr LRN at 400 fps max. Very quiet, doesn't wake the neighbors, no ear protection needed... Just because you have a magnum caliber (and I'm including the 10mm in this category), it doesn't mean that you *have* to shoot full power loads. Sometimes, the task at hand can be perfectly handled by a light load.
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Old 11-21-2012, 15:33   #132
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But the advantage of the .45 win mag (or the .460 Rowland for that matter) is that you can still supposedly shoot the .45ACP rounds in them.

Just like with the 10mm -- you don't have to shoot full power loads, you can shoot the 10mm-lite "FBI loads" that they created for their female agents (which eventually was made into the .40SW caliber).

Hell, I've got .357mag loads that I periodically shoot for pests (armadillos, 'possums, etc) that are 158 gr LRN at 400 fps max. Very quiet, doesn't wake the neighbors, no ear protection needed... Just because you have a magnum caliber (and I'm including the 10mm in this category), it doesn't mean that you *have* to shoot full power loads. Sometimes, the task at hand can be perfectly handled by a light load.
Imagine the velocity that the .45 WinMag would get with a 185gr JHP. 1500FPS? 1600?
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Old 11-21-2012, 16:51   #133
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With 9mm, I can pretty much mag dump and get all my shots in the vitals at 21ft. With 45 it's a lot more deliberate. With 40 I just think what a stupid caliber it is.
At 13 my kid could do that mag dump with 9mm.


40 just take more skill and it sounds like you need lots of practice.
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Old 11-21-2012, 16:55   #134
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Well, this is regarding my ability, but here goes:

I can make 4-5 good hits with 9mm in the time it takes to make 2 good hits with 40. I can make 3 good hits with 45. According to my understanding, that's a lot more damage on the target in the same amount of time.

I also figure that if I ever have to do this in a gun fight, it's going to be a lot harder, to make a good hit, so being able to do it much easier counts for a lot.
Oooooooooh. So it's not a stupid caliber.. You're just not much of a shot.

Might I suggest that you buy a .22. They're vastly easier to shoot lots of rounds quickly.
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Old 11-21-2012, 18:04   #135
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I carry and own all three major service caliber, those being the 9mm the .40S&W and the .45acp. I like the 9mm as it's cheaper to shoot and easier to shoot and carries the most rounds in a given handgun. I know handguns are a compromise anyway, so I carry a 9mm most days because I can shoot it the best whether two handed, weak handed or one handed, it doesnt matter.

My buddies who served in Iraq both shot men with their M9 pistols with FMJ ammo. No HP ammo, just FMJ and both men went down and stopped what they were doing and never moved again. Shot placement is everything.
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Old 11-21-2012, 19:40   #136
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My buddies who served in Iraq both shot men with their M9 pistols with FMJ ammo. No HP ammo, just FMJ and both men went down and stopped what they were doing and never moved again. Shot placement is everything.
I have to suspect that a lot of the people who are so much of a zealot of one caliber over another have not actually been put in a situation where they had to defend themselves. I've been in that situation.

Many years ago, when I was *much* younger, I shot two guys with a Beretta .22LR who wanted to "share the (my) wealth" and they stopped what they were doing... Or at least it slowed them down enough that I could outrun them... I didn't bother wasting time looking behind me as I was running... I later found out that I had accomplished nothing more than flesh wounds, but apparently it was enough... On the other hand, I was once shot with a .38 and I didn't even notice it in the excitement of the moment...

It all boils down to shot placement and the determination of both parties... In the first incident, my shot placement was crap and their determination was low... In the second incident, his shot placement was crap and my determination (to not get shot) was rather high...

I wasn't any sort of badass, just someone who was minding my own business, but in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Old 11-21-2012, 19:44   #137
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OK. One more opinion. If you hit the mark with good ammo, a 9, 40, or 45 will all do the job. (the statistics prove that) NATO uses 9s. Most agencies use 9s or 40s. My 9s are easy to shoot well, conceal, carry more rounds, cheaper ammo (so more practice), and ammo available everywhere. So ---- I am not discrediting the larger cals but just saying. This is why I run 9s. And the beat goes on........
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Old 11-21-2012, 19:58   #138
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considering winter is coming. .40 or .45 cal. in summer where everyone wears a t-shirt 9mm.
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Old 11-21-2012, 20:10   #139
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I've never heard of anyone thanking God they were only shot with a 9mm.........
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Old 11-21-2012, 21:36   #140
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I think this brings up a point rarely discussed. My buddies recently did some of their own ballistics testing.

Using gel may be good for penetration testing. But I think it's exceptionally poor at illustrating "damage".

After firing 9mm vs 10mm...penetration was one thing into gel, but shooting into pork "picnic" cuts and ribs showed no comparison. The 9mm made a nice hole....the 10mm absolutely disintegrated the meat ...total psychotic destruction. .... Penetration is one...ONE aspect of bullet performance....penetration... But after seeing what I saw I'm finding penetration in gel to be a fairly misleading.
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Old 11-21-2012, 22:57   #141
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Hi guys, it is not about caliber. Of course the size of the hole matters. What matters more is the first rule in any gunfight: have a gun! I have a Ruger Super Redhawk in 44Mag. Will surely make a mess of any attacker, but it resides in my safe, it is too big to carry. My Glock 19 sits on the hip, sleeps under my pillow. Which means I have a gun!
I have experience of what a 9mm can do in the hands of a skilled person. Use what you are comfortable with, the rest is bull****.
Any gun, more than an armslength away when the sh... hits he fan, is of no use, no matter the size the of the bullet.
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Old 11-22-2012, 00:36   #142
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Yes it is. If you're defending yourself against grizzly bears it would be a great choice.

For anti-personnel use? I'll take a .45acp.

I ain't LE or military, but I have drawn a gun with the expectation of shooting someone in self defense. Believe me, when you're there, you always wish you had more gun. I almost exclusively carry .45 auto, by the way...

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Hi guys, it is not about caliber. Of course the size of the hole matters. What matters more is the first rule in any gunfight: have a gun! I have a Ruger Super Redhawk in 44Mag. Will surely make a mess of any attacker, but it resides in my safe, it is too big to carry. My Glock 19 sits on the hip, sleeps under my pillow. Which means I have a gun!
I have experience of what a 9mm can do in the hands of a skilled person. Use what you are comfortable with, the rest is bull****.
Any gun, more than an armslength away when the sh... hits he fan, is of no use, no matter the size the of the bullet.
Well, if it's under the pillow when you're sleeping, you ain't exactly carrying it, are you? I understand the Redhawk won't be as comfortable to rest your head on, but you might consider putting in on the night stand.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:38   #143
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Oooooooooh. So it's not a stupid caliber.. You're just not much of a shot.

Might I suggest that you buy a .22. They're vastly easier to shoot lots of rounds quickly.
There's no need to be insulting people now.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:30   #144
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There's no need to be insulting people now.
You should read the whole thread, Woods started it.
Here's what he said to me after I questioned him on
calling the .40 S&W a "stupid caliber"


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Eh, some people do fine with that stupid caliber. Most of the ones at the range I go to suck with it. Most of the guys in the steel matches do good with it.

I don't know if you're an idiot or not, you're some guy on the internet.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:15   #145
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You should read the whole thread, Woods started it.
Here's what he said to me after I questioned him on
calling the .40 S&W a "stupid caliber"
Yeah. It's amazing how hostile people get when talking about their preferred caliber. Me, I use 9mm now but I have no problem with .45. I don't like the .40 round but it'll do the job. 10mm is a cool round but its probably too much recoil for me to shoot comfortably + it's expensive and not commonly available.


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Old 11-22-2012, 11:33   #146
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Oh well, me I'm a gun nut, I like shooting anything that goes bang.

I just happen to like the .40 for carry. But anything from
.380 on up is better then having nothing on you.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:45   #147
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On my day job, I issued a .40 caliber pistol for 12 years. We now carry a .45 acp, which I am a huge fan of. Although I would carry my duty pistol off-duty occasionally, my off-duty pistols were either .45 acp or 9mm. I don't put people down for their caliber choice. As long as it fits their needs, and they can shoot it well, that's fine with me. I'd rather have someone put accurate rounds on a threat than shooting a caliber that they can't control. Not everyone will put in the time to train and become proficient with their chosen firearm, defensive ammo and gear.
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Old 11-22-2012, 22:00   #148
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I own .38 Special, 9mm, .40s, .45 ACP and .357 SIG.

I carry 9mm almost exclusively in an urban environment. Here is why it makes sense for me in that situation:

1. I'm carrying Speer factory 124 gr Gold Dot +p which has a proven street and lab record. There is nothing boutique about it and if it is ever a legal question I can point to several major metropolitan departments with thousands of officers that carry the same load.

2. The wolves travel in ever larger packs these days. For a given size firearm I want the most on tap within that platform that I can have, before a reload is required.

3. Given the above point and that I tend to carry smaller pistols because of my personal logistics, the 9mm meets that requirement better for me. Yeah, I know it's usually only a round or two difference in most cases but I'll take it. Shot placement is king but in a dynamic situation with less than ideal shot placement I'll take the cumulative effect of two less than ideal hits with a 9mm over one less than ideal hit with a larger caliber. (Except 10mm which is known to lift the assailant clean off their feet with even a thumb hit, but it violates the Geneva conventions )

4. I'm a civilian and I don't work in and around vehicles all day so the heavier caliber's auto glass performance is not a factor for me.

5. I can shoot 9mm fast and accurate. In a me vs me comparison I will always outperform myself using 9mm versus another service caliber. Now I might shoot .40 or .45 faster and more accurate than another guy shoots 9mm but I can always out shoot me vs me using 9mm. I could shoot all year with a G27 and be damned good but at the end of that year I would still shoot a G26 that much better.

6. The firearms that I carry most often were all originally designed around the 9mm. I have a gut feel belief that carrying a firearm in the caliber it was originally designed for gives the best reliability and lessens the chance of a freak parts breakage at a bad time.

Do I think the .40 and .45 ACP are more effective by a degree or two? Yup. But given my above perceived personal requirements and situations I think the 9mm is my best choice for most of my carry situations. I think .357 SIG smokes them all in the common service calibers and if I was going to ditch the 9mm for everyday use (I'm not) I would go that route because it somewhat duplicates the famed 125gr .357 Magnum but in a platform that would work for me from a practical carry perspective.

I do carry other calibers in more rural settings but then I usually do have a shotgun or rifle right there so it's moot.

Good discussion.
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Old 11-22-2012, 22:26   #149
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If the 9mm is all you can handle I can see why you would think it is the best. DON"T discredit others for shooting much more superior rounds. That said there is no better pistol the a Glock 20 10mm if you can handle it? if not stick to what you can, hell ya might want to try a 22 if the 9 is a little snappy for ya. I say it is what you are comfortable with. 9 mm is like shooting a bb gun to me never would want one see no need for one for me it is a useless round
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Old 11-22-2012, 22:27   #150
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SHOT PLACEMENT. I've read from one of the articles written by an experienced law enforcer (just forgot his name) that regardless of the caliber, shot placement determines whether a guy shot gets killed (or goes down) immediately or continues moving but drops after some time..If you hit him in the head between the eyes or directly in the heart, regardless of whether you used a .22 cal. or .45 caliber, the person would surely go down and cease to live immediately after..
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