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Old 11-18-2012, 09:14   #76
ateamer
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In 1945, we killed a few hundred thousand Japanese civilians with firebombing and nukes. Do you numbers and stats guys have the same outrage about that? I don't see any problem with overwhelming payback. This isn't two guys fighting in a parking lot over a girl. This is one country fighting to be kept from extinction.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:21   #77
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Originally Posted by ateamer View Post
In 1945, we killed a few hundred thousand Japanese civilians with firebombing and nukes. Do you numbers and stats guys have the same outrage about that? I don't see any problem with overwhelming payback. This isn't two guys fighting in a parking lot over a girl. This is one country fighting to be kept from extinction.
The doctrine of proportional response is a perfect way to lose a war. If they kill one of yours you kill 1000 of thiers.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:25   #78
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You guys ought to read a book called "The Haj" by Leon Uris. I'm sure Lior doesn't need to do so in order to have an understanding of the mentality there. However it's a good book that demonstrates the mentality of the individuals in that region.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:28   #79
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Sorry, but I'm a numbers guy. People have different opinions, but facts are simpler than the way people like to spin things.
You know I'm a numbers guy too. You're using numbers to spin an agenda. The numbers you quote don't tell a story, they're just numbers.

The facts are 1) the land has belonged to enough people over the last five thousand years that it's simply not possible to say who it "should" belong to 2) Palestinians have been screwed by every side, including Britain, but especially by other Arab nations and 3) Israel has tanks and a first-rate air force now, but it didn't always--it wasn't too long ago that the IDF was using leftover WWII equipment to fight off six nations at once. No one complained about "disproportionate" response then.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:29   #80
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Lior - just curious since you're there. Is there any discussion about this being used as a possible distraction from Iran?
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:31   #81
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I think the Iron Dome is scaring the crap out of the other mid-east countries.

Hamas is claiming less than a 50% success rate for Iron Dome. But, read into it a little more. It is seems like almost 100% right now. The system targets trajectories and doesn't fire on rockets that wont hit anything. It seems they have near a 100% hit rate on rockets with dangerous trajectories.

If I was Iran, I would be crapping my pants about now. It shows their missiles probably have very limited strike capability on Israel. However, I think this may actually make the situation worse. When dealing with nut jobs like Iran, their logical conclusion will be that they need a nuke even more since that might be their only chance of penetrating Iron dome.
Iron Dome is only against short range rockets. It can't shoot down a nuke or a Scud type missile.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:36   #82
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I am watching BBC. They just interviews the IDF spokesman.

WOW. The guy had some balls (in a good way). The BBC news guy asked about Israels "disproportionate response".

The Israeli spokesman said, well, when Germans were bombing London, you were not worried about a disproportionate response against Germany and not killing civilians.

The BBC guy had a long pause and then asked his final question. It was clear that that direct of a response was not expected.

His final question was how to stop this.

The IDF spokesman had a simple solution. He said, quit firing rockets at Israeli civilians and it will stop.
Haha. If you ask an Israeli a question you should expect the most direct and honest answer there is.

And he is right. If Hamas stops attacking Israel it will stop. The Palestinians had the biggest economic prosperity after the 1995 peace agreement until they decided to start another uprising against Israel.

Looks like the Palestinians are doing great now.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:36   #83
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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
Sorry, but I'm a numbers guy. People have different opinions, but facts are simpler than the way people like to spin things.

Simply take a look at the last Israeli "operation" (as usual, it is really a slaughter. Palestinians killed 9 Israelis total - only 3 civilians, whereas Israeli killed 773 civilians. Disproportionate force and Collective punishment are both War Crimes, as written into International Law by US authors after WWII)

Sorry the formatting sucks. Here is the original tables, but you can get the idea pretty easily. http://www.btselem.org/download/2009...lities_eng.pdf

Israeli security forces killed 1,387 Palestinians during the operation. The breakdown is as
follows:

Did not take part in the hostilities 773
Of them, women (over 18) 107
Of them, minor boys & girls (under 18) 320
Took part in the hostilities
330 2
Women 0
Minors 19
Police officers killed at police stations 248
Unknown if took part in the hostilities 36
Women 0
Minors 6
Total 1387
Minors killed who did not take part in the hostilities, by age and gender
Age Total Boys Girls
Under 6 60 33 27
Under 11 119 68 51
Under 17 290 195 95
Under 18 320 221 99
Adults killed who did not take part in the hostilities, by age and gender
Total Age Men Women
18-29 141 176 35
30-39 55 74 19
40-49 69 90 21
Over 50 81 113 32
Israeli fatalities (all figures relate to the Gaza Strip and southern Israel during
the period 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009)
During the operation, Palestinians killed nine Israelis, as follows:
 Three civilians, who were killed by Qassam and Grad rocket fire
 Six members of the security forces
In addition, four soldiers were killed by friendly fire. 3
P
The only side to ever claim a disproportionate response is the losing side, I never knew war needed to be proportional. Here's a hint, don't start a war you can't finish.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:42   #84
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Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
Lior - just curious since you're there. Is there any discussion about this being used as a possible distraction from Iran?
A distraction from Iran and also from any other tyrannical regimes that don't want media attention.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:26   #85
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Originally Posted by Lior View Post
Of course the Hamas are trying to capitalize on deaths on their side, as they have done previously. But they don't care about their own lives - it's just good PR for them. In the words of or Ms. Livni: the Hamas is using its own people as live body armor. Enjoy the double standard of Muslim countries around the whole thing. Hundreds of airstrikes resulting in a few dozen deaths is a miracle IMO.
Lior,I'm not Jewish/Roman Catholic.I'd be proud ta serve with you on any line anywhere.Respects.'08.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:37   #86
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A distraction from Iran and also from any other tyrannical regimes that don't want media attention.
That last few days, this is what I have said.

Iran is involved and stirring it up. And the Palestinians are stupid/brainwashed (lets call the religious indoctrination of the Palestinians what it really is) to see they Iranians dont care about them; the Iranians only care about their agenda. What are thousands of Palestinian deaths to them?
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:46   #87
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They probably expected Obama to hold Israel back by threatening to cut off US aid, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear something for Obama or Klinton calling for Israel to show "restraint", and wait for negotiations or sanctions.
Just as I expected. Obama warns about ramping up, urged Israel not to start a ground war.


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...11-18-10-15-38
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:53   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
That last few days, this is what I have said.

Iran is involved and stirring it up. And the Palestinians are stupid/brainwashed (lets call the religious indoctrination of the Palestinians what it really is) to see they Iranians dont care about them; the Iranians only care about their agenda. What are thousands of Palestinian deaths to them?
And I salute you, Sir, for seeing the real picture.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:18   #89
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PS.

Apologies to Israel for the USA's part in this.

I think with Iran stirring crap up, it is no coincidence that this happened AFTER the US election. They are seeing how well the US govt will back an ally. Don't expect Barack to do much other than condemn Israel.
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Old 11-18-2012, 16:14   #90
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I think they want a more involved war where the rest of the Muslim world comes to their defense.
Ya, I think they want Obama to demand co-operation on both sides. Translation Obama will demand Israel go back to the 1967 borders.
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