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Old 11-17-2012, 16:12   #51
DanaT
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I think this will be played out much differently than expected.

Hamas wants to draw in Israeli soldiers and kill some.

Urban warfare is dangerous for an invader.

On TV here it is being reported (could be propaganda) that Iranians have been training Hamas and supplying them. They are supposed to have much better anti tank weaponry now and more modern weapons. Also they said that in the previous Gaza battle, Hamas soldiers broke and ran. They have supposedly been trained by the Iranians in better tactics.

It all comes down to Hamas want to cause fatalities and they need to show their supporters that they can kill Israeli soldiers. They really cant do that until a ground assault comes.

Now, I suspect Israel to come in under the cover of darkness but Hamas will fight during the day.
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Old 11-17-2012, 19:14   #52
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The best way to fight urban war is to remove the urban part. It's really too bad the Israelis don't have the capability to run thirty days of arc lights.
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Old 11-17-2012, 20:51   #53
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They figured the one would support them.'08.
Yep. The muslims are slow learners.
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Old 11-17-2012, 21:19   #54
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They want to draw Israel into a war with someone else. The are pretty sure Obama wont attack the nuke sights. Get Israel tied up long enough that they cant make the attacks in Iran.
This.

Though the beginning of the current hostilities pre-dates our recent election, the idea is to tie down Israel so it has greater difficulty forcibly addressing the Iran nuke situation. Since the election, the world knows the Obama administration will be flakey in terms of supporting an Israeli attack on Iran's nuke sites now that Obama "has more flexibility." Israel is therefore figuring it will need to largely stand on its own in this regard, and the clock is ticking. Hence the Iranian regime (and like-minded Islamic terrorist types) are more concerned about a relatively near-term attack by Israel.

Israel does not intend to destroy Hamas because Hamas helps keep other Gaza-residing terrorist groups in check.

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Old 11-17-2012, 21:23   #55
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Obviously Hamas is willing to throw away a lot of Muslim lives 'for their cause,' and figure the more Muslims Israel kills the better it is for Hamas.
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Old 11-17-2012, 21:28   #56
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This.

Though the beginning of the current hostilities pre-date our recent election, the idea is to tie down Israel so it has greater difficulty forcibly addressing the Iran nuke situation. Since the election, the world knows the Obama administration will be flakey in terms of supporting an Israeli attack on Iran's nuke sites now that Obama "has more flexibility." Israel is therefore figuring it will need to largely stand on its own in this regard, and the clock is ticking. Hence the Iranian regime (and like-minded Islamic terrorist types) are more concerned about a relatively near-term attack by Israel.

Israel does not intend to destroy Hamas because Hamas helps keep other Gaza-residing terrorist groups in check.
Exactly, but this is a two edged sword.Israel could decide to hit much harder than anyone expects and go ahead and take Iran out now. A massive air strike on Iran's nuc facilities while hitting the Iranian HQ facilities in Tehran and perhaps hit Iranian ports wiith some nasty sub launched ordnance would set Iran and Hamas on their asses.
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Old 11-17-2012, 21:35   #57
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Exactly, but this is a two edged sword.Israel could decide to hit much harder than anyone expects and go ahead and take Iran out now. A massive air strike on Iran's nuc facilities while hitting the Iranian HQ facilities in Tehran and perhaps hit Iranian ports wiith some nasty sub launched ordnance would set Iran and Hamas on their asses.
Hmm, would that effectively solve the US terrorism problem?

Seems like that would cause al qaeda to totally ignore the US and focus on Israel.
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:19   #58
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Exactly, but this is a two edged sword.Israel could decide to hit much harder than anyone expects and go ahead and take Iran out now. A massive air strike on Iran's nuc facilities while hitting the Iranian HQ facilities in Tehran and perhaps hit Iranian ports wiith some nasty sub launched ordnance would set Iran and Hamas on their asses.
I dont expect to see that. Could happen, but I doubt that scenario will occur.

Also, Iran is getting to test out the iron dome and seeing how to penetrate it (or what gets stopped). Notice I say Iran. Iranian rockets/missiles are being fire at Israel.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:37   #59
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Goyim means Christian, what's your point?
I think he meant 'Golem.'
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:47   #60
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I dont expect to see that. Could happen, but I doubt that scenario will occur.

Also, Iran is getting to test out the iron dome and seeing how to penetrate it (or what gets stopped). Notice I say Iran. Iranian rockets/missiles are being fire at Israel.
Good post, it's time the palestinian occupation and palestinian aggression be stopped by Israel once and for all.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:52   #61
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This is a very interesting read.

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn....ad/?hpt=hp_bn2
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:54   #62
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More about Israel's inhuman raid into the Gaza Strip:
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:56   #63
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I think the Iron Dome is scaring the crap out of the other mid-east countries.

Hamas is claiming less than a 50% success rate for Iron Dome. But, read into it a little more. It is seems like almost 100% right now. The system targets trajectories and doesn't fire on rockets that wont hit anything. It seems they have near a 100% hit rate on rockets with dangerous trajectories.

If I was Iran, I would be crapping my pants about now. It shows their missiles probably have very limited strike capability on Israel. However, I think this may actually make the situation worse. When dealing with nut jobs like Iran, their logical conclusion will be that they need a nuke even more since that might be their only chance of penetrating Iron dome.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:59   #64
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More about Israel's inhuman raid into the Gaza Strip:
I didnt watch your link as my internet is not fast enough.

But, let me ask you a question. You find some UFC fighter. You walk up to him. Punch him in the nose. No reaction. You kick him in the shin. No reaction. You bite his ear. He pushes you away and asks you to stop. You grab his junk. He punches you in the face and knocks you out. Maybe you pushed him too far?
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:11   #65
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You do realize that the whole land for peace was never intended to be honored by the Palestinians, etc it is an attempt to obtain more and more land. Gaza was given to them and there hasn't been one day of peace. Israel could give them 99% of the land for peace and there still wouldn't be until Israel ceased to exist.

I understand the situation is hard to decipher when your only stream of information is the left leaning main stream media, the same media who show the fighting between Hamas and Israel as David vs. Goliath, they forgot to tell you David is equally armed as we see with their 8 year missile campaign of aggression against Israeli civilians, it seems for the first time that the world is seeing the Palestinians true colors.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:23   #66
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You do realize that the whole land for peace was never intended to be honored by the Palestinians, etc it is an attempt to obtain more and more land. Gaza was given to them and there hasn't been one day of peace. Israel could give them 99% of the land for peace and there still wouldn't be until Israel ceased to exist.

I understand the situation is hard to decipher when your only stream of information is the left leaning main stream media, the same media who show the fighting between Hamas and Israel as David vs. Goliath, they forgot to tell you David is equally armed as we see with their 8 year missile campaign of aggression against Israeli civilians, it seems for the first time that the world is seeing the Palestinians true colors.
You like accuse, but didnt read the article.

"What is clear, however, is that Arafat had voided his pledge to resolve future conflict with Israel at the negotiating table."

"Most Israelis view their experience of land-for-peace in the same fashion that Native Americans consider their experience with the concept."

Did you actually read the link? It talks about how the Palestinian side has never intended to follow through with the land for peace deal.

This doesnt seem like an article manipulated by the "left leaning main stream media"
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:28   #67
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I am watching BBC. They just interviews the IDF spokesman.

WOW. The guy had some balls (in a good way). The BBC news guy asked about Israels "disproportionate response".

The Israeli spokesman said, well, when Germans were bombing London, you were not worried about a disproportionate response against Germany and not killing civilians.

The BBC guy had a long pause and then asked his final question. It was clear that that direct of a response was not expected.

His final question was how to stop this.

The IDF spokesman had a simple solution. He said, quit firing rockets at Israeli civilians and it will stop.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:37   #68
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And to think that over 60 percent of US Jews voted for Obama again. Unbelievable.
Actually, it was 69 percent. http://www.haaretz.com/news/u-s-elec...emium-1.475889

It is tough to generalize, because you've got a wide range of people, from Orthodox to far left, but from most of the Jews I've known (mostly Chicagoland) they're socially liberal and fiscally conservative. They care about Israel, but are upset about the treatment of the Palestinians. Even the population in Israel is pretty split about what to do in Gaza.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:53   #69
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Nice post. Interesting that so many hold Israel to one standard and the rest of the region to another. I assure you that many on this forum would not have the level of restraint that Israel has shown, nor take on the risks that Israel has assumed in the interest of protecting civilians that are intentionally being used by the enemy as shields. In addition, these are mostly civilians that support the terrorist actions against Israel and view Israelis as something less than dogs.

Israel has quite a challenge ahead. If they commit to ground actions in Gaza, they will face a better equipped enemy than what they've seen in the past. In addition, I'm sure they are thinking...'what a convenient distraction from Iran'. It just so happens that this is escalating when Iran is less than a year away from being at the point of no return on a nuclear weapon (i.e., crossing Israel's red line).

I was puzzled as to why the Obama administration is supportive of Israel here when they have not been in the past. Then I was thinking of the old Ali "rope a dope". Draw Israel into a conflict intentionally. Meanwhile, Iran is freed up to finish their work...which is back to being consistent with this administration's behavior.
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:12   #70
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Why do you think the US won't back Israel? Obama has made it clear that the US will. Our policy toward Israel Hasn't changed.
Obama has said what is politically expedient.

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Old 11-18-2012, 08:17   #71
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Sorry, but I'm a numbers guy. People have different opinions, but facts are simpler than the way people like to spin things.

Simply take a look at the last Israeli "operation" (as usual, it is really a slaughter. Palestinians killed 9 Israelis total - only 3 civilians, whereas Israeli killed 773 civilians. Disproportionate force and Collective punishment are both War Crimes, as written into International Law by US authors after WWII)

Sorry the formatting sucks. Here is the original tables, but you can get the idea pretty easily. http://www.btselem.org/download/2009...lities_eng.pdf

Israeli security forces killed 1,387 Palestinians during the operation. The breakdown is as
follows:

Did not take part in the hostilities 773
Of them, women (over 18) 107
Of them, minor boys & girls (under 18) 320
Took part in the hostilities
330 2
Women 0
Minors 19
Police officers killed at police stations 248
Unknown if took part in the hostilities 36
Women 0
Minors 6
Total 1387
Minors killed who did not take part in the hostilities, by age and gender
Age Total Boys Girls
Under 6 60 33 27
Under 11 119 68 51
Under 17 290 195 95
Under 18 320 221 99
Adults killed who did not take part in the hostilities, by age and gender
Total Age Men Women
18-29 141 176 35
30-39 55 74 19
40-49 69 90 21
Over 50 81 113 32
Israeli fatalities (all figures relate to the Gaza Strip and southern Israel during
the period 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009)
During the operation, Palestinians killed nine Israelis, as follows:
 Three civilians, who were killed by Qassam and Grad rocket fire
 Six members of the security forces
In addition, four soldiers were killed by friendly fire. 3
P
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Last edited by Louisville Glocker; 11-18-2012 at 08:24..
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:22   #72
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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
Sorry, but I'm a numbers guy. People have different opinions, but facts are simpler than the way people like to spin things.

Simply take a look at the last Israeli "operation" (as usual, it is really a slaughter. Palestinians killed 9 Israelis total - only 3 civilians, whereas Israeli killed 773 civilians. Disproportionate force and Collective punishment are both War Crimes, as written into International Law by US authors after WWII)

Israeli security forces killed 1,387 Palestinians during the operation. The breakdown is as
follows:

Did not take part in the hostilities 773
Of them, women (over 18) 107
Of them, minor boys & girls (under 18) 320
Took part in the hostilities
330 2
Women 0
Minors 19
Police officers killed at police stations 248
Unknown if took part in the hostilities 36
Women 0
Minors 6
Total 1387
Minors killed who did not take part in the hostilities, by age and gender
Age Total Boys Girls
Under 6 60 33 27
Under 11 119 68 51
Under 17 290 195 95
Under 18 320 221 99
Adults killed who did not take part in the hostilities, by age and gender
Total Age Men Women
18-29 141 176 35
30-39 55 74 19
40-49 69 90 21
Over 50 81 113 32
Israeli fatalities (all figures relate to the Gaza Strip and southern Israel during
the period 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009)
During the operation, Palestinians killed nine Israelis, as follows:
 Three civilians, who were killed by Qassam and Grad rocket fire
 Six members of the security forces
In addition, four soldiers were killed by friendly fire. 3
P
1. What is the source of your numbers?

2. Sounds like Hamas should spend more money on social services and less on rockets.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:06   #73
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I love the fact that groups are meeting in Egypt to work out a cease fire, it should be real simple.

Hey Hamas, if you stop shelling they won't backhand you like a pimp does a mouthy ho. Then you backhand the Hamas rep to help it sink in.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:06   #74
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Sorry, but I'm a numbers guy. People have different opinions, but facts are simpler than the way people like to spin things.
Unfortunately, analysis purely based on numbers is ignorant. It fails to account for tactics used by Hamas. When the enemy intentionally puts their civilians in harms way, more civilians die.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:09   #75
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Of course the Hamas are trying to capitalize on deaths on their side, as they have done previously. But they don't care about their own lives - it's just good PR for them. In the words of or Ms. Livni: the Hamas is using its own people as live body armor. Enjoy the double standard of Muslim countries around the whole thing. Hundreds of airstrikes resulting in a few dozen deaths is a miracle IMO.
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Last edited by Lior; 11-18-2012 at 09:11..
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