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Old 11-17-2012, 06:58   #241
Animal Mother
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Did you forget the originally asserted contradiction? It was that Luke stated Jesus was born at the time when Cyrenius was governor of Syria, but this is NOT what Luke states.
Yes, it is.
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This is a pure (to put it politely) misinterpretation, which I suspect was done so as to invent a contradiction in the first place. For the last time on this issue, here is what Luke stated and I do not see how anyone could interpret these words to mean Jesus was born when Cyrenius was governor.


Luke 2:1-3KJV

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. ([And] this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

Luke says nothing of the kind and there is no contradiction. Period.
Why did Joseph travel to Bethlehem with his betrothed Mary, who was pregnant at the time? Perhaps Luke 2:4-5 can give us some insight: "And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child."

Joseph was going to Bethlehem to be taxed, a tax which was first made when Quirinius was governor of Syria, and was accompanied by his espoused wife who was great with child.

What possible conclusion fits the narrative other than that it was taking place while Quirinius was governor?
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:00   #242
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
Crazy yours too.
We've gone around about this one before too. If Lucy (an example of Australopithecus afarensis) is in fact a chimp, why are the ratios of her humerus to femur not within the range found in chimpanzees? In fact, the ratio falls between those of humans (71.8%) and chimps (97.8%) at 84.6%? ...
Since the skeletal remains you mention for lucy has one bone from the left side and the other bone from the right side, and coupling these facts with the fact that all the bones were found with other assorted remains from similar looking bones, my guess would be that Dr. Johanson has collected bones from two different animals as well as two different sides (e.g., left and right) of animals that were drowned and ultimately had their remains scattered in a world wide flood, which is clearly spoken of in Genesis.

That's my guess, what is yours?

ETA: The talkorigins cite didn.t reveal the entire conversations held that day in Kansas City, Missouri. Please get back with me on that topic when your ready to address it. (Might help to mention the same to your favorite website (i.e., talkorigins), and find out why they omitted the followup question. Just a thought.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:16   #243
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
Yes, it is.
Why did Joseph travel to Bethlehem with his betrothed Mary, who was pregnant at the time? Perhaps Luke 2:4-5 can give us some insight: "And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child."

Joseph was going to Bethlehem to be taxed, a tax which was first made when Quirinius was governor of Syria, and was accompanied by his espoused wife who was great with child.

What possible conclusion fits the narrative other than that it was taking place while Quirinius was governor?
You failure and or inability to to read and comprehend makes the fact you were able to get through your first year, much less complete several years of college absolutely amazing to me.

There is no contradiction, and all I can do at this point is strongly suggest that you learn how to read and comprehend above beyond your emotional involved stubbornness. If you'll simply read it as written it is easily understood, but you are literally creating a baseless contradiction out of emotionalism rather than the text itself.

This will make it simple for you ( I hope...)

If the text read, " And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. ([And] Jesus was born when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)...," then you would have a foundation for your argument, but you are without anything to rationally support you position at this point.

But it doesn't say or imply any such thing, it merely states, "([And] this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)"
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:35   #244
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
You failure and or inability to to read and comprehend makes the fact you were able to get through your first year, much less complete several years of college absolutely amazing to me.

There is no contradiction, and all I can do at this point is strongly suggest that you learn how to read and comprehend above beyond your emotional involved stubbornness. If you'll simply read it as written it is easily understood, but you are literally creating a baseless contradiction out of emotionalism rather than the text itself.

This will make it simple for you ( I hope...)

If the text read, " And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. ([And] Jesus was born when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)...," then you would have a foundation for your argument, but you are without anything to rationally support you position at this point.

But it doesn't say or imply any such thing, it merely states, "([And] this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)"
Clearly, your delusions are strong. Let's take it one baby step at a time.

Why was Joseph going to Bethlehem?
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:45   #245
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It is possible you hold this view [Peace Warrior], given your earlier statement that you completely reject science in favor of the Bible, but it isn't true in any objective sense of the words "scientifically" or "accurate".
...
I said, "I completely reject science in favor of the [Holy] Bible." Really?

WOW?!?!???

Doesn't sound like something I'd say, but given your propensity to carefully abbreviate, embellish, and or hyper-exaggerate what others actually say, let me first ask for a quoted link through the GT system, or can you post a link to such a quote by me on other sites or one of my blogs elsewhere.

Thanks...
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:59   #246
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Since the skeletal remains you mention for lucy has one bone from the left side and the other bone from the right side,
What does this have to do with the knee you've been going on about?
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and coupling these facts with the fact that all the bones were found with other assorted remains from similar looking bones
They were not found with any other assorted remains. The fact there were no duplicate bones is one of the points cited by Dr. Johanson in his book on the discovery.
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my guess would be that Dr. Johanson has collected bones from two different animals as well as two different sides (e.g., left and right) of animals that were drowned and ultimately had their remains scattered in a world wide flood, which is clearly spoken of in Genesis.
Your guess is wrong, given both the evidence above and the complete lack of evidence for a global flood.
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That's my guess, what is yours?
I don't have to guess. I have evidence.
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ETA: The talkorigins cite didn.t reveal the entire conversations held that day in Kansas City, Missouri. Please get back with me on that topic when your ready to address it. (Might help to mention the same to your favorite website (i.e., talkorigins), and find out why they omitted the followup question. Just a thought.
That's because the followup question is not documented anywhere except the creationist propaganda. Given the demonstrated willingness of creationists to distort or even outright lie when necessary, why should this claim be given any substance especially after the previous claimed question has already been addressed and shown to be inaccurate? Willis is the only source for the supposed questions, and again his veracity is very much open to question. Given that nowhere in Johanson's published work has he ever described the Hadar knee joint as Lucy's knee, there's no reason to think he would have done so in the course of a lecture.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:22   #247
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
I said, "I completely reject science in favor of the [Holy] Bible." Really?

WOW?!?!???

Doesn't sound like something I'd say, but given your propensity to carefully abbreviate, embellish, and or hyper-exaggerate what others actually say, let me first ask for a quoted link through the GT system, or can you post a link to such a quote by me on other sites or one of my blogs elsewhere.

Thanks...
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
I'll admit I have PURE faith in the Earth, Moon, Sun, Stars and everything else seen and unseen only being between 6000 and 13,000 years old
I could add any number of examples where you reject the evidence and conclusions of science because they contradict your interpretations of scripture while making vague claims about "believable" and "real" science which are nothing more than transparent attempts to twist the language of science to the service of your religious beliefs with no regard to what the evidence actually shows.

But here's a chance for you to make an explicit statement, if you have the guts. If the Bible and the conclusions of scientific investigation contradict each other, which do you hold to be authoritative or true?
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:51   #248
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...Such as the value of pi being 3? ...
1 Kings 7:23 - 26 (KJV)

And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast. It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward. And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.


Folks not interested in truth, but trying to create contradiction NEVER read or mention verse 26 from 1st Kings, chapter 7, which gives a value of pi based on the circumference divided by the diameter if one adds the width of the "above ground brass 'swimming' pool."


Religious Issues
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:05   #249
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...[No PW, you never said anything of the kind, not even remotely, I made it up because I personally believe that] you reject the evidence and conclusions of science because they contradict your interpretations of scripture ...
Fixed it for ya!

I never said anything of the like, but before I fixed it, it was the best apology I ever saw you make. You're gettin' soft.

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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
... But here's a chance for you to make an explicit statement, if you have the guts. If the Bible and the conclusions of scientific investigation contradict each other, which do you hold to be authoritative or true?
Such an outlandish hypothetical occurrence based on your suppositions so far in this thread.

You will forgive me for not even pretending to respond until you or someone else actually gets close to having something worthy enough to give rise to decent premise on which to base such a question.
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"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
"It's a lot simpler to fool people than it is to convince them they've been fooled."

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Old 11-17-2012, 09:09   #250
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(Emp. mine)\

Radiometric dating does not prove the Earth to be billions of billions of years old. Evos already admit as much.

-am-, stratigraphy, specifically as it relates to the geologic column and the age of the Earth, is what drives radiometric dating. One the whole, radiometric dating relies on the cross checking from index fossils, specifically, their placement within the certain stratum, in order to determine if the radiometric dates are to be used or literally thrown out as inconclusive or in error.

Simply put, where it not for the predetermined dates derived from the geologic column, which by the way predates radiometric dating by over 50 years at least, then radiometric dating would have been thrown out by the evos themselves as something that was unreliable as well as a foolish methodology to scientifically determine the age of anything dug up and or found on the ground.
Did you make all that up yourself???

Radiometric dating is based on comparing the normal ratios of isotopes accumulated in living animals to the ratios in the fossils, and using the half life of the isotope to figure out how long it would take to decay to the ratio seen in the fossil. That's what "evos" use. Its based on known rates of decay, measurable ratios, and that thing called "math".

You seem to again be confused over basic facts, and even basic definitions.

Randy

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Old 11-17-2012, 09:13   #251
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Peace Warrior, are you suggesting that biblical scholars discovered the value of pi before moden day mathematicians?
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:22   #252
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(btw- The photo thing didn't escape me. At least you have a sense of humor. )

Neither you nor I were around to witness the creation of the Sun. It may very well be a star, or it may be totally different from other stars in the universe, but one thing is for sure, you are utilizing what you believe to have occurred (i.e., theory) coupled with a light smattering of historical science, which is no where even close to an actual, empirically scientific explanation for the "birth" of stars as promoted by the Big Bang, Oscillating Universe, and or any of the Stellar evolution theories.

ETA: let me bring you up to speed
empirical - adjective - \im-ˈpir-i-kəl\
1: originating in or based on observation or experience
2: relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory
So you are not sure if the sun is a star now?

Is there any empirical evidence you have a functional brain inside your skull? Exactly how do you come to that conclusion? You have a bible verse to back that up, since actual evidence seems to not be your strong suit.... While we're at it, have a cat scan or mri of your head?

And regarding radiometric dating, potassium argon dating relies on half lives of over a billion years. Utterly useless for timeframes around 6000 to 13000 years, so that pretty much puts your young earth creation theory into the trash bin of history, using actual evidence and real physical phenomenon. If everything were 13000 years old or less, everything would appear the same age using potassium argon dating, i.e. essentially zero. Which is demonstrably not the case.

Of course, you'll pretend that evidence doesn't exist.
Randy

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Old 11-17-2012, 09:26   #253
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Did you make all that up yourself???

Radiometric dating is based on comparing the normal ratios of isotopes accumulated in living animals to the ratios in the fossils, and using the half life of the isotope to figure out how long it would take to decay to the ratio seen in the fossil. That's what "evos" use. Its based on known rates of decay, measurable ratios, and that thing called "math".

You seem to again be confused over basic facts, and even basic definitions.

Randy
Could "contamination" by ground water affect the results of radiometric dating on a given sample supplied for such testing?
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:29   #254
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So you are not sure if the sun is a star now?

Is there any empirical evidence you have a functional brain inside your skull? Exactly how do you come to that conclusion? You have a bible verse to back that up, since actual evidence seems to not be your strong suit.... While we're at it, have a cat scan or mri of your head?

Randy
I know what the Sun is, but when speaking only from an empirically derived scientific perspective, one must be guarded before claiming the Sun is "just like other stars" in the Universe.


ETA: I am speaking from the point of a technicality.
..
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:33   #255
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Could "contamination" by ground water affect the results of radiometric dating on a given sample supplied for such testing?
Not sure. I would not claim that no sample has ever been contaminated. But I am sure that every single sample ever found anywhere on earth that shows an age > 13,000 years was not contaminated by groundwater. I know moon rocks that date at billions of years old were not contaminated by groundwater that doesn't exist on the moon.

I know you are desperately trying to deny evidence for no reason other than to avoid admitting to yourself that you've been misled by misinterpretation of scripture. There's plenty of Christian churches that gave up the 10,000 year old Earth decades ago. Just as they gave up the idea the Earth was the center of the universe. The bible is not a science textbook. It was not even intended as a goat herding manual at the time it was written, and that was something they were actually knowledgeable about back then.

Randy

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Old 11-17-2012, 09:36   #256
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Peace Warrior, are you suggesting that biblical scholars discovered the value of pi before moden day mathematicians?
No, never said that, but they most certainly may have known its value. I have no way of knowing one way or another.

Do you believe others, around the same time as 1st Kings was written, or anytime before, knew the value of pi?

Essentially, it is an old wives tale type of thing to claim that the Holy Bible states the value of pi is 3. Practically 100% of the time 1 Kings, chap 7, verse 26 is never mentioned when such a claim is made to Christians. My post with the illustration addressed -am's- false implication.

I'm going back over the thread as i have been accused by people, not even members at GT until this year, that I am skipping posts. I'll be going back and recapping for a while I would guess. Bear with me...
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:41   #257
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I know what the Sun is, but when speaking only from an empirically derived scientific perspective, one must be guarded before claiming the Sun is "just like other stars" in the Universe.


ETA: I am speaking from the point of a technicality.
..
If you propose the sun is different from other stars, you ought to have some basis for saying that. Everything actually measured about it lines up with other medium sized yellow stars for instance.

If your basis for saying that is merely that YOU don't know, your theory about the sun is as farked up as your theory about the age of the earth.

Speaking from a factual standpoint, not a technicality. Arguments from ignorance carry no more weight from the willingly ignorant, regardless of their being subject matter experts in ignorance. That merely transforms it to an argument from authority in that case, simply a different logical fallacy.

Randy

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Old 11-17-2012, 09:42   #258
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Do you believe others, around the same time as 1st Kings was written, or anytime before, knew the value of pi?
Not a belief, it's a matter of historical record that ancient Egyptian and Babylonian mathematicians were able to estimate pi within one percent of its true value about 1000 years before the book of kings was written.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:42   #259
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Not sure. I would not claim that no sample has ever been contaminated. But I am sure that every single sample ever found anywhere on earth that shows an age > 13,000 years was not contaminated by groundwater. I know moon rocks that date at billions of years old were not contaminated by groundwater that doesn't exist on the moon.

I know you are desperately trying to deny evidence for no reason other than to avoid admitting to yourself that you've been misled by misinterpretation of scripture. There's plenty of Christian churches that gave up the 10,000 year old Earth decades ago. Just as they gave up the idea the Earth was the center of the universe. The bible is not a science textbook. It was not even intended as a goat herding manual at the time it was written, and that was something they were actually knowledgeable about back then.

Randy
Are you a supporter of the carbon-14 dating methodology?

Do you know if the Earth's atmosphere has reached the saturation point of carbon-14 yet?
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:44   #260
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Not a belief, it's a matter of historical record that ancient Egyptian and Babylonian mathematicians were able to estimate pi within one percent of its true value about 1000 years before the book of kings was written.
Hey, then since ancient Egyptian and Babylonian mathematicians were around and the knowledge has been available to know that the Holy Bible didn't contradict itself on this point.

Amazing to me how college graduates still try to bring this one up.
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“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it.” - William S. Burroughs
"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
"It's a lot simpler to fool people than it is to convince them they've been fooled."

Last edited by Peace Warrior; 11-17-2012 at 09:44..
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