GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-15-2012, 16:18   #41
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Not from what I've seen but maybe your tests results were somehow different than mine.

There isn't enough street data on the 10mm nor any commercially available loads in 10mm that are scientifically/professionally tested to the same standards as most Law Enforcement grade ammunition.

As a result, there isn't much real world data available on the subject. Yes, there is some but much of it is either inconclusive or incomplete.

I don't like betting on maybe or it probably won't. Granted, my tests with several 10mm loads were in no way scientific but the results with the 10mm loads almost all over penetrated when compared to other popular calibers such as .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357 Mag.

None of the loads tested in any of the other calibers showed any over penetration where the 10mm did nearly every time. We obtained average to really impressive expansion on the loads tested but we had severe over penetration issues with most of them.

To sum it up, the 10mm has a lot of power behind it and it shows in the form of over penetration. With hand loads that were toned down a good bit (closer to .40 S&W velocities) over penetration wasn't a issue and expansion wasn't as impressive with some bullets either.

I'm not here to tell anyone that carries this cartridge that they should reconsider it. All I'm stating is what my experience has been with the cartridge and why I feel the way I do about it.

In short, it's not for me.
Hmmm, not what I've seen in my testing nor the gel tests that I have seen around the net. Can more velocity cause more penetration from over expansion (petals folding back around the core of the bullet)? Sure. Most times velocity hinders penetration because of increased deformation of the projectile and the increase of resistance from retarding forces. The difference I've witnessed between the calibers was much more pronounced in the way of destruction, if you will, not penetration.

Now when you say "over penetration' do you mean it just simply penetrated more than the others? It actually takes a lot of penetration to really count as over penetration.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 16:29   #42
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Hmmm, not what I've seen in my testing nor the gel tests that I have seen around the net. Can more velocity cause more penetration from over expansion (petals folding back around the core of the bullet)? Sure. Most times velocity hinders penetration because of increased deformation of the projectile and the increase of resistance from retarding forces. The difference I've witnessed between the calibers was much more pronounced in the way of destruction, if you will, not penetration.

Now when you say "over penetration' do you mean it just simply penetrated more than the others? It actually takes a lot of penetration to really count as over penetration.
You are well-educated in this discussion. Bullet overpenetration is a much-discussed topic.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 16:56   #43
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,959


Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Hmmm, not what I've seen in my testing nor the gel tests that I have seen around the net. Can more velocity cause more penetration from over expansion (petals folding back around the core of the bullet)? Sure. Most times velocity hinders penetration because of increased deformation of the projectile and the increase of resistance from retarding forces. The difference I've witnessed between the calibers was much more pronounced in the way of destruction, if you will, not penetration.

Now when you say "over penetration' do you mean it just simply penetrated more than the others? It actually takes a lot of penetration to really count as over penetration.
It's like that 180 grain Underwood test tnoutdoors did. The Gold Dot completely expanded, and the petals bent all the way back with the jacket almost separating from the core. I am sure that bullet expanded past its limit, and the velocity of the Underwood load kept it driving deeper into the test media.

I have thought about what you speak of too. I often wonder how much deeper the Underwood 200 XTP will be driven as compared to the Hornady 200 grain load.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 17:01   #44
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
It's like that 180 grain Underwood test tnoutdoors did. The Gold Dot completely expanded, and the petals bent all the way back with the jacket almost separating from the core. I am sure that bullet expanded past its limit, and the velocity of the Underwood load kept it driving deeper into the test media.

I have thought about what you speak of too. I often wonder how much deeper the Underwood 200 XTP will be driven as compared to the Hornady 200 grain load.
What was the caliber - .40 S&W?
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 17:02   #45
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,959


Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
What was the caliber - .40 S&W?
10mm @1300+
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 17:03   #46
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
10mm @1300+
Awesome round, the 10mm.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 17:04   #47
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
It's like that 180 grain Underwood test tnoutdoors did. The Gold Dot completely expanded, and the petals bent all the way back with the jacket almost separating from the core. I am sure that bullet expanded past its limit, and the velocity of the Underwood load kept it driving deeper into the test media.

I have thought about what you speak of too. I often wonder how much deeper the Underwood 200 XTP will be driven as compared to the Hornady 200 grain load.
I would guess it would drive that sucker pretty deep. As you know, the core on the XTPs are stout. Pretty much seems to me that the petals are on their own so to speak. I think the faster you drive it the petals will either try harder to lay flat giving way to some deep penetration. I wouldn't use it on people that's for certain.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 17:07   #48
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
Awesome round, the 10mm.
You should look up the vid (180grn by TN9outdoors) on Youtube.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 17:09   #49
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
I would guess it would drive that sucker pretty deep. As you know, the core on the XTPs are stout. Pretty much seems to me that the petals are on their own so to speak. I think the faster you drive it the petals will either try harder to lay flat giving way to some deep penetration. I wouldn't use it on people that's for certain.
So my 115gr Hornady 9mm XTP bullets are no good for SD?
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 17:28   #50
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
So my 115gr Hornady 9mm XTP bullets are no good for SD?
Oh, I'm not saying that. To be honest I don't know much about that round. Lucky for you 9mm guys you do have lots of documented street shootings to help along with ammo selection. I would personally stick to one of the common bullets in 9mm for SD purposes in big factory name loadings or Underwood. The XTPs are meant for deep penetration but are not really expansion kings. Many of the other common bullets such as the Gold Dots, HST, etc give good expansion and meet most peoples needs for minimum penetration with street cred to boot.

The reason I said that about the 10mm 200 grain XTP is because of a few reasons. One is that the XTP, again, is really a hunting bullet with tough construction. Two, it has a high sectional density at that weight. Three, the combination of these factors coupled with the higher energy levels of the 10mm, IMHO, make it unsuitable for common SD purposes. Energy is essentially the bullet's ability to do work. Although some energy is lost in the way of heat (and other things) there is plenty enough ability left to possibly make it over penetrate with the potential for deep penetration on another (inocent) target.
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic

Last edited by uz2bUSMC; 11-15-2012 at 17:29..
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 19:50   #51
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Oh, I'm not saying that. To be honest I don't know much about that round. Lucky for you 9mm guys you do have lots of documented street shootings to help along with ammo selection. I would personally stick to one of the common bullets in 9mm for SD purposes in big factory name loadings or Underwood. The XTPs are meant for deep penetration but are not really expansion kings. Many of the other common bullets such as the Gold Dots, HST, etc give good expansion and meet most peoples needs for minimum penetration with street cred to boot.

The reason I said that about the 10mm 200 grain XTP is because of a few reasons. One is that the XTP, again, is really a hunting bullet with tough construction. Two, it has a high sectional density at that weight. Three, the combination of these factors coupled with the higher energy levels of the 10mm, IMHO, make it unsuitable for common SD purposes. Energy is essentially the bullet's ability to do work. Although some energy is lost in the way of heat (and other things) there is plenty enough ability left to possibly make it over penetrate with the potential for deep penetration on another (inocent) target.
OK, I understand.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 21:17   #52
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,959


Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
I would guess it would drive that sucker pretty deep. As you know, the core on the XTPs are stout. Pretty much seems to me that the petals are on their own so to speak. I think the faster you drive it the petals will either try harder to lay flat giving way to some deep penetration. I wouldn't use it on people that's for certain.
Yep I agree. It's my carry load for when I am hunting predators at night, as a backup to my shotgun. Our SOP states we have to carry JHP's in our off duty guns, so the XTP is to my way of thinking the next best thing to fmj rounds for penetration. By your synopsis, the UW would outpenetrate the Hornady, and I think you are right in that the expansion in the UW would not be so great in an XTP bullet. I would like to see tnoutdoors do some more tests with the XTP's.

Hopefully, I will never have to use either one on an angry bear.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 13:59   #53
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Yep I agree. It's my carry load for when I am hunting predators at night, as a backup to my shotgun. Our SOP states we have to carry JHP's in our off duty guns, so the XTP is to my way of thinking the next best thing to fmj rounds for penetration. By your synopsis, the UW would outpenetrate the Hornady, and I think you are right in that the expansion in the UW would not be so great in an XTP bullet. I would like to see tnoutdoors do some more tests with the XTP's.

Hopefully, I will never have to use either one on an angry bear.
So what is UW - underwater?
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 14:20   #54
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,959


Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
So what is UW - underwater?
Underwood Ammunition

http://www.underwoodammo.com/
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 14:41   #55
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Yep I agree. It's my carry load for when I am hunting predators at night, as a backup to my shotgun. Our SOP states we have to carry JHP's in our off duty guns, so the XTP is to my way of thinking the next best thing to fmj rounds for penetration. By your synopsis, the UW would outpenetrate the Hornady, and I think you are right in that the expansion in the UW would not be so great in an XTP bullet. I would like to see tnoutdoors do some more tests with the XTP's.

Hopefully, I will never have to use either one on an angry bear.
Yeah, I would definitely like to see that test as well. It's a bullet I would rather see tested than really try to guess what it will do at 10mm speeds. Good luck avoiding the pissed off bears!
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 14:51   #56
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,959


Quote:
Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Good luck avoiding the pissed off bears!
Lol.

I just auggested the 200 grain XTP's over on 10mmfirearms.com.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 15:40   #57
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
UW = Underwood

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Underwood Ammunition

http://www.underwoodammo.com/
I should have known!!
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 15:53   #58
uz2bUSMC
10mm defender
 
uz2bUSMC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: J-Ville NC
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Lol.

I just auggested the 200 grain XTP's over on 10mmfirearms.com.
Nice! Hopefully it happens...
__________________
- Without idiots, there would be no baseline for common sense.

- "Our country went through a transition during the last election where the parasites came together and outnumbered the hosts." -jdavionic
uz2bUSMC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 20:40   #59
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by I Shooter View Post
The 45ACP is a great round and the Glock is a great hand gun. I carry a Glock 36.

The 40 S&W is a round that was commissioned by the FBI. They wanted a round that had the stopping power of a 125gr, 357mag with less recoil. They also wanted ten rounds and as easy to train with as a revolver. Simith & Wesson came up with the 40 S&W and a pistol that was double action only. It was offered to the FBI and they bought it.

The 5.56 was not picked by the military because of its killing power. It was designed to hurt people. Take them out of the fight and have some one look after them. It takes two to four men to take care of a man hurt and no one has to take care of a dead man. That is why they picked the 5.56 over the 7.62.

My side arm in the woods is a 44mag. Daily carry is a Glock 36. Best all around gun to do both tasks would be 3" 357 revolver.

For hunting any big game in the United States it would be hard to beat the 358 Winchester with a stiff load. It can be down loaded with 357 bullets and used for taking small game.

These are just my opinions.
So. I am considering getting a Glock 36. What do you think of your G36?
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:58.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 903
179 Members
724 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42