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Old 11-15-2012, 13:26   #21
quake
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Originally Posted by RWBlue View Post
It is like golfing with a complete set of clubs or just a 1wood & 4iron. At least where I played I could get away with just those two clubs if I had to, but it nice knowing I had a complete set of clubs if I needed them.

If you want just a few clubs, then I need to know the limitations of the group, better idea of the location and in the end you may really really want something more and not have it.
Good analogy.

I (and probably most of us) have more guns than we really need; but if push came to shove we'd almost always be better off picking the one or two that can solve the most, and most important, problems. That means we have to be very proficient with those, very comfortable with them, and very well setup/stocked with everything needed to feed, operate and maintain them; enough so that we're comfortable sticking with them when stuff's on the line.
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Old 11-15-2012, 15:16   #22
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Ummmm.....what club would this equate to?


Survival/Preparedness Forum
6. Heavy long range gun.

A friend had a Big Birtha 1 wood. I think that is equivalent.
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Old 11-15-2012, 15:42   #23
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Good analogy.

I (and probably most of us) have more guns than we really need; but if push came to shove we'd almost always be better off picking the one or two that can solve the most, and most important, problems. That means we have to be very proficient with those, very comfortable with them, and very well setup/stocked with everything needed to feed, operate and maintain them; enough so that we're comfortable sticking with them when stuff's on the line.
Well, I can see both sides or to put is a different way I don't like the idea if pushed to either extreme.

If I handed someone a tricked out Remington 870 and a second barrel. This is the ultimate one gun arsenal IMHO. Good for hunting and personal protection from squirrels to Grs. Bear. It can take everything in the world if used correctly, BUT man it would suck hunting antelope in Wyoming especially if the other hunters were using Rem M700 in 270 with scopes.

The flip side is the people who have 300 or 500 different guns. There is no time to learn all the different intricacies of each gun.

I think the above list is complete, but as stated above I don't have all of those guns covered. For other areas, I have multiples as I continue to find something better.
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Old 11-15-2012, 16:55   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LongGun1 View Post
Really good answers above...

.. but also & pointedly....

I would ask someone starting out to look very closely at logistics & weak links in their "preparedness philosophy".



Like....if things got really bad...

How quick could they relocate their ammo stores??

What is the maximum amount they could relocate if using every member of their party??

How quickly could they load stored ammo into magazines??

Do you have a means to allow non-shooters to quickly replenish ammo into magazines??


As it doesn't matter if you have thousands or 10's of thousands of rounds per gun..

..if you cannot replenish magazines quickly enough to defeat the threats!


Questions like these can be answered here....

http://pullig.dyndns.org/practicalpr...st=0&sk=t&sd=a



Also you might look at optics (Aimpoint, EOTech, etc) for your long guns that allow quicker, more effective targeting on moving targets..

..especially during low light & night time hours.

Night Vision is value added here!

You can waste a lot of ammo if you cannot see what is assaulting you & yours!


Striving to make each round of your ammo count....

..is what counts!



As far as what additional weapons (or add ons) you might add..

That really depends on your budget & how far you want to go..

I would have a inexpensive, reliable, compact, semi-auto pistol with holster & extra mag for every secondary member you expect to have in your group....standardized...something like a Makarov (I have CZ-82 loaners)

Also a training gun for each of the younger members..

..this setup was my daughter's 10th birthday present.

Survival/Preparedness Forum


...which led to this Saiga for her 13th birthday present,,

Survival/Preparedness Forum



Longer range DMRs for adults in the group...

Survival/Preparedness Forum

No suppressors.'08.
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Old 11-15-2012, 18:12   #25
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Glock 21SF 50rds
2 Glock 26s 450 rds
Bersa 380 300 rds
S&W 38 Sp revolver - 100 rds
AR-15 - 400 rds
20 ga double barrel Shotgun 225 rds
.308 bolt action rifle 60 rds
.22lr M&P rifle 11,000 rds

I would suggest you sell the G21 and buy a G19 or G17. Keep your 26's if you need both for his/hers CCW. If not, sell one for a G19/17. You don't need a .45.

Sell the 380 - it serves no purpose.

You don't say what your 38 is, but its probably a good idea to keep it if it is a good one, especially if its a snub nose.

Keep the AR-15, add ammo/mags

If you hunt and like the 20 double - keep it. If you don't hunt, sell it and replace it with a 20 or 12 pump (Rem or Moss).

I personally don't see that much use for the 308, but I understand why some do. Can you shoot it to its potential? If not, you are probably better served by selling it and getting a single shot game rifle in 308 and using the difference on ammo / mags.

You need a .22 handgun.
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Old 11-15-2012, 22:31   #26
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...
4. Do it all shotgun, (20 ga double barrel does not fit this role. There are several shotguns which could fit this role. I found a Remington 870 with a sidesaddle, ammo on the stock, 18.5 rifle sights and screw in modified choke is a pretty good do it all shotgun.)
...
I've never seen one, and I've looked. The closest I've seen is to have a fixed choke barrel drilled and tapped for rem choke, or have the 870 tactical ghost ring sight barrel drilled and tapped for a rear rifle sight. (Though I'm not 100% sure the front sight is the same.)

Buying a barrel then having it drilled and tapped seems like a lot to shorten up my gun by 1.5". Though I'm sure I'll do it eventually.
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Old 11-15-2012, 23:10   #27
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In a SHTF type scenario, my Go-To guns will be my Glocks and my AR-15. The simple reason is they have proven to me that they will function dirty, take some of the most common ammunition out there. 40cal, and 5.56/.223, and have the highest magazine capacity.

I guess if I owned a mash-up of different guns/calibers, my opinion may be different, but I've selected each purchase with a purpose. There's only been a couple of them that I bought just for the heck of it.

You may want to make the determination as to whether:
A: You truly have the right mix of firearms for what you plan to happen.
B: You do not have the right mix, but you are trying to justify to yourself why they are the right mix of guns for your purpose.

If B is the answer, there could be different reasons for why your collection is the way it is, such as you acquired them prior to your SHTF plans, or you listed every gun in the house, including some of the guns that other people in your home own.

I will say from personal experience, there's nothing wrong with having some toys to play with, but my toys aren't part of my plan, they are just that, my toys. My home defense plan includes only a couple of guns. If I need to adapt to a hunting scenario instead of a defense scenario, that's where my hunting rifle comes in with one of my pistols.

I guess what I'm getting at is, it doesn't seem like you have a lot of ammo for any of the guns in your plan besides the .22. You've got a collection of firearms, without much thought to how fast you can blow through the ammo when it comes down to it. The bad thing is, you can't carry and shoot all 9 guns at once, you can only shoot one. You may want to consider consolidating your collection to something a little more manageable, and if you sell some of them, use the proceeds to get some ammo!!

Of course, if money isn't tight, keep the guns you have (I hate selling my guns!!) and invest in more ammo for the guns in which you have a strategic plan.

I live in a densely populated area, so my focus is on home/personal defense, with the next most important thing being the ability to hunt for food. With this in mind, I have a lot of ammo for my AR, and only a couple hundred rounds for my 30-30, since the AR would typically be sending a lot of ammo down range at once, while hunting for food would (Hopefully, HA!) mean one round of ammo would = one kill.

In a perfect world, I would hope to see at least a minimum of a thousand rounds of ammo for each gun. Not each caliber, each gun, so if you have 2 guns that are 9mm, then you need at least 2,000 rounds of 9mm. But my numbers aren't there yet either, but it's just what I hope to acquire.
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Old 11-15-2012, 23:31   #28
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I've never seen one, and I've looked. The closest I've seen is to have a fixed choke barrel drilled and tapped for rem choke, or have the 870 tactical ghost ring sight barrel drilled and tapped for a rear rifle sight. (Though I'm not 100% sure the front sight is the same.)

Buying a barrel then having it drilled and tapped seems like a lot to shorten up my gun by 1.5". Though I'm sure I'll do it eventually.
There is this one.
Remington Barrel Remington 870 12 Gauge 3" 18-1/2" Modified Choke with Tritium Rifle Sights Parkerized
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/921...hts-parkerized
But it doesn't look like the chokes are screw in.

Then there is Remington Slug Barrel Remington 870 Special Purpose 12 Gauge 3" 20" Rem Choke with Rifled Choke, Rifle Sights Matte

I am beginning to think that I have the second barrel and replaced the rifled choke with a modified I had. As a side note the rifled choke was not bad with the saboted slugs at the time, but I wanted a do it all shotgun, not a deer only shotgun.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:18   #29
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No suppressors.'08.

Baby Steps!

NFA later on!
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:57   #30
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My first question would be do you know how to use the guns that you have? If you are good to go with the guns you have then that is half the battle. Only you know the answer to that.

The shot gun you have can you hunt with it? Can any one in your party use it? In short can you hit a running rabbit with it? The shot gun is what most people will use for small game. Many will also use it for H.D. I have a 11 87 12 gage that I have three barrels for, one for birds, one rifled for deer and the police barre for H.D. I keep the police barrel on it till I need it for hinting. I have two cases for birds and one case of 7.5 for small game, 200 rounds of number four buck and 200 rounds of slugs. I also have molds to make more slugs.

Your 308 can you keep 5 shots in a one inch group at 100 yards? This rifle could stop some one before they get to close or are trying to snipe you or yours. You need to be able to reach out and hit some one with it. Or some one in your party needs to be able to. I have three such rifles. Two 243 Winchesters and one 308 Winchester. They all have scops on them and I can keep them less than an inch at one hundred yards and so can my son.

Hand guns are very personal. Some will tell you you don't need this or that. The real question is can you or your party hit any thing with the ones you have? If you and yours can't use the hand guns you have you and they need to train. With a hand gun you need to be able to hit some thing from your window of your house to the street. If that is 100 yards you don't need a hand gun you need more rifles. If it is 100' then you need to learn to hit at 100'.

Now what is the house made of. If you stand at a window and shoot out of it will the guy shooting back be able to shoot you by shooting low on the window and his round comes through the wall? In short is your house brick or frame? That is some thing you need to fix if you really think you may have to have a shoot out to keep your home. What is the front and back doors made out of? Do you have a safe room that every one can run to and defend from there? There are a lot of things to think about to survive a gun fight and a lot of ways to go about it. Running to the back 100 puts you and yours out in the open. Not a good idea.

Your concern about your guns is fine. I would be more concerned with food, water and a way to make my home more bullet proof. Try and have a plan that you shoot the bad guy inside your home after he brakes in.

Last but not least don't let every one around you know what you have. If you end up with a years supply of food, that is between you and yours. Then no one knows to come to your house and try and take it.

Last edited by I Shooter; 11-16-2012 at 02:12..
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:34   #31
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More great advice...IMO!


Many good ways to approach this issue!
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Old 11-17-2012, 13:14   #32
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trying to maintain ammo and supplies for 6-7-8 different weapons is actually working against yourself. Someone will always say.. no such thing as too much guns and ammo. Well, its not about the having.. its about the logistics, money and overly drawn out length of time it takes to get what you want for that many weapons when its all going to boil down to (1) or (2) if needed in a self defense emergency.

I am not a doomsday person but I do realize that there are a few disasters that can cause a significant disruption to services and normal living. People panic and the less than lawful can certainly be the first people to try and take advantage of the situations. If I found myself hole up in my home and bands of criminals were a realisitc threat to me and mine. I would probably want: A Shotgun, a revolver and a semi auto rifle. Realistically speaking I would probably go to a 357 lever action Marlin and a 357 revolver since that is was is most available in my home.
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Old 11-17-2012, 16:42   #33
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Originally Posted by Glock 1 View Post
I am making a list of ammo and guns I should have in stock. Here is the calibers I have and the respective ammo amounts.

Glock 21SF 50rds
2 Glock 26s 450 rds
Bersa 380 300 rds
S&W 38 Sp revolver - 100 rds
AR-15 - 400 rds
20 ga double barrel Shotgun 225 rds
.308 bolt action rifle 60 rds
.22lr M&P rifle 11,000 rds
IMHO - I would move all of the pistols to 1 caliber (9mm) and sell off the rest, with the exception of adding a .22LR target pistol like the Ruger. Good 9mm is still cheap so 1,000 rounds per pistol is reasonable.

Move the shotgun to a 7 & 1 autoloader like the Mossberg 930 with maybe 500 rounds. If this is your self defense weapon and you use it the police will take it and you will be lucky to see it again for a year.

AR 15 is a great combat rifle so I would stock up a few K rounds for it.

The .22 is a fantastic round and it sounds like you can take enough small game for the rest of your life with 11K rounds and supply your new pistol too.

If you have game around the .308 will be just fine. How about 500 or 1,000 rounds for it though.

Really good question to think about I did this a couple of years ago and ended up selling and buying guns and ammunition to correct my "wants" to my "needs" which is how I look at it right now.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:58   #34
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Some great stuff above. Really Like RW's comments. I'll just throw a few general points out there as guidelines based on my approach (which may be totally wrong for you)

1. There is no such thing as "enough" but you never know how much that is. So don't hurt yourself trying to figure it out.

2. Which is better 500 rnds of ammo or 500 gallons of water? I think I can avoid a gunfight a lot longer than I can avoid going without a drink. In fact, being able to lay low without needing a drink from somewhere really helps with that.

3. As a rule of thumb, I just go with 500/per gun, and don't get fancy about the type of ammo. Bottom line : Shoot straight and FMJ will do pretty well, even in a 9mm. Miss, and Corbon is just money that could have been spent on food.


My general rules on weapons:

One long gun and one hand gun per adult shooter. I don't really care what the gun is. I'd rather it was something you know and shoot well more than anything. Cowboy with a 30-30 is a dangerous foe vs an accountant who can't work his tricked out LWRC AR....

Handgun rules in SHTF IF you must go out. I still say spend more on food/water than ammo and don't go out.


Now to be very specific -

#1 Gun: 12g pump shotgun. Fast, reliable, flexible. HD, SD, Hunting (small game, deer, birds, bear = whatever). Most flexible, easy to use, forgiving weapon period. Have two of them. Mossberg 535 with Turkey/Field barrels in 22"/28" is an excellent choice to get a lot of milage out of one gun. Remington 870 with 18.5" and another 26" barrel is also great. Or an 870 Police and a regular 870. Every house in America should have one. I Have Mossberg 500 for indoor use AND the 535 for food duty.

Get an assortment of ammo: Buck for HD, SLugs for big game (or cars), game loads, trap loads. Ammo you know is more important than premium IMO, and more practice with crappy ammo is way better than a little practice with premium ammo. 200 game rounds, 200 buck rounds, 100 slugs, and as much practice ammo as you want.

#2 Handgun of choice: 9mm, .40, 45, 38, .357 semi or revolver. Don't care. Just make sure you learn to use it. It's the other gun you'll carry all the time, or carry and conceal. Standard size is fine or 4" revolver. remember - you are staying home. Again - 500 rounds on hand. Spend the rest on practice ammo (That's 1k rounds already...)

I like a semi in 9mm. Ammo is effective, cheap, available, and cap is high. .40 is much more rare, expensive, and honestly not practically more effective. a few hundred more rounds of practice with 9mm IMO is more important than the extra umph of .40/.45

I have HK and XD's in 9mm and .45. If you have a 9mm and a .357 - there is a LOT of chance you'll run into people with that ammo. Common caliber is key, IMO...and less calibers is better. A few very common ones. 9mm, .357, .45; I'd feel really good.

If you are getting a backup - get it in the same caliber. Hard to beat Glock for this with the sub compact/full size or a .357 snub and a 4"

#3 The Military Carbine of choice. AR, AK, whatever. I like AK, because again - it's cheap, it's uber reliable, and has a good stopping factor. Again - the 600-1200 dollar difference in the AK vs the AR is a lot of practice.

Remember - this is a main fighting weapon, and I do not plan on fighting. It is not the best thing for a lot of things, but it is a great all around rifle for many/most things.

Don't think you need more than 1000 for this. Again -
spend money on ammo for practice and food/water etc...and you may not need to use it. This would be best. AK's are my preference. I have an ultra high end Arsenal that cost a little more than the cheapest sensible AR.

Also - two of these is not a bad idea. Get the the same ones. If they break - parts exchange is handy. Even AK's can break. Assume an AR will - especially cheap ones.

#4 .22 rifle or pistol of choice. Again - don't care. Great for practice and as a last ditch bug out weapon after you had to drop the Shotgun and pistol. It's too easy NOT to have 1000 rounds of .22 on hand. Get PREMIUM ammo!!! Rimfire is fickle. Get another couple thousand of 550 round boxes if you want.

I have an M&P 15-22, and a Henry Survival. Need a Ruger MKIII. Handy to camp, hunt ext....

If each adult shooter has a Shotgun/handgun of choice, and there is at least another long gun and a .22 or two around, that's all you can shoot anyway.


If you want to go further....

Good bolt action in 30-06 or 308. Hunt anything AND long range AND commonly available. Honestly, a bit of a waste if you don't hunt.

For two adults in the home: AR, SG, two handguns in same caliber, and a .22. 500 rounds of ammo STORED for each gun. And then, don't buy any ammo EXCEPT practice until you get a month of supplies for the family. Then buy another 100 rounds each. You end up eventually with 5 months of supplies and almost 1000 rounds of ammo.

5 months of hunker down is worth way more, IMO than 500 rounds.

Less guns, less stored ammo, more practice, more other supplies.

More effective rounds, more common rounds, more reliable weapons. 12g, 9mm, 7.62x39, .22lr in 12g pump, reliable semi/revolver, AK, and Rugers.

If you have 8 guns for four people and 500 rounds each - enjoy life. If those 8 guns are in 4 calibers - even better.

Last edited by Aceman; 11-18-2012 at 08:01..
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:32   #35
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Hard question, but here goes.
I decided on 1K of SD ammo and 10K of practice ammo for each gun. I decided on 11 magazines for gun requiring magazines. Someone said, that is a HELL of a lot of ammo. I tell them, I don't plan on surviving a conflict where I have to use my 1K of SD ammo. This is just in case the laws change and I can NEVER buy ammo again. This being said, I have never reached my goal numbers.

As for what guns to have for SHTF, I don't like your collection. This is what I would get. Then I would buy for the rest of the family. Then I would get spare parts and/or duplicates/replacements. Assuming money and desire.

For personal protection:
1. Micro CCW, (Bersa 380 fits, but I don't like 380. I would grab a micro 9.)
2. Full sized sidearm, (Glock 21SF fits, but can everyone in the family use it? And it is not in the same cartridge as the micro ccw.)
3. Rifle/carbine, (AR-15 fits depending on how it is tricked out. Remember most attacks happen between dusk and dawn.)
4. Do it all shotgun, (20 ga double barrel does not fit this role. There are several shotguns which could fit this role. I found a Remington 870 with a sidesaddle, ammo on the stock, 18.5 rifle sights and screw in modified choke is a pretty good do it all shotgun.)

Bonus points for:
5. SBR (pocket rifles are great as a multi-purpose platform. I am addicted to SBRs.)
6. Heavy long range gun (I still need a BIG heavy like a 50BMG McMillian. Your 308 is at best a medium. With the time I have to practice and my current skill set, all I have is several mediums.)

Practice tools:
1. 22lr handgun or conversion
2. 22lr rifle or conversion (Your .22lr M&P rifle fits)

Hunting:
1. See the "Do it all shotgun" above. Get a second of whatever and don't trick it out tactically. The full length barrel is better for flying things, but the 18.5 with modified choke is great for deer to rabbits.
2. If has been said that everything in North American can be hunted with a 30-06. I believe it is true, but not the best idea. I would suggest doing the 4 gun battery. Light=22LR (See practice gun above), Varmint=222 through 22-250, Medium 243 though 300 Weatherby Mag (the core deer cartridges), Heavy 338 through 600N (This is to keep elephants out of your yard. So far I have not had any elephant in my yard since I got my 458WM. It can also be loaded down and used for deer.)
3. Combo gun. I want a 12ga over 308. I will get one. When I need food and don't know what I will find to kill......it will be my game getter gun.
While I don't entirely agree with this - I like it.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:08   #36
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Real SHTF gun must be of current military issue caliber. Look at all recent SHTF areas. Military issue loaded magazine was the most prized commodity.

It does not have to be ****s-where-it-eats AR. Or idiotic open slide Beretta. There are plenty of reliable guns nowdays that take AR mag and handguns that shoot 9mm.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:31   #37
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While I don't entirely agree with this - I like it.


Same here....but great advice nonetheless!


Yours also....and others....good advice abounds!
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:25   #38
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Got 15k on the way,I blame LG-1.

5k .223

5k .308

2k .40sw

2k .45acp

1k 7.62x39.Don't have one,barter does work.'08.
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Old 11-18-2012, 13:07   #39
Aceman
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Originally Posted by LongGun1 View Post
Same here....but great advice nonetheless!


Yours also....and others....good advice abounds!
And no two people's lists SHOULD be the same. Different people, different situations, different priorities.

But 3 out of 4 surveyed, are gonna have 3 out of 4 items in the same ballpark.

Still, that's only about a 60% overlap.

I will maintain forever and a day, that a home with an 870 12g, a 30-30 Lever, and 4" 357 is as well prepped for most practical sensible purposes as one with a Benelli M4, a SCAR, and an HK45. Maybe better in some respects...And that no home is as well geared up as LG1's.

12g, COmbat Rifle, Common cal hand gun, and .22 is just not gonna be able to be reasonably debated.

SBR - we can argue that one....

And remember - this is a GUN board survival room. It isn't the SURVIVAL board gun room (I'm a member of both situations).

We MAY, just MAY be a LITTLE biased towards things that go boom.

Last edited by Aceman; 11-18-2012 at 13:10..
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Old 11-18-2012, 14:04   #40
RWBlue
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Originally Posted by Aceman View Post
SBR - we can argue that one....

And remember - this is a GUN board survival room. It isn't the SURVIVAL board gun room (I'm a member of both situations).

We MAY, just MAY be a LITTLE biased towards things that go boom.
It is not that I like thing that go boom. It is that I have a bias toward things that make little holes in other things.

Or to put it a different way, shooting suppressed guns is will put a smile on my face every time.

As far as the SBR, if you don't get it, you just don't get it. They are like potato chips, suppressors, M&Ms. Once you start using one, you will want another. I am still looking for the BEST setup.
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