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Old 11-14-2012, 18:08   #301
Arquebus12
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We're in similar trades (construction, electrical), and you're describing things that I've seen and encountered in non-union shops, with people too job scared or just plain green, going into harm's way for no other reason than that was the job. I read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle", and absolutely ******* right, there was a need for unions then. But now...

That said, I hadn't thought about all the training that was available, free for the taking. But if unions were outlawed tomorrow (I'm spitballing here), I just don't believe that things would regress to the same dangerous levels of the past.

BUT- I'm speaking from a limited personal experience; I was union for about 16 months, that's it. If it works out for you, power to you and all of your other union members. I'll do my own negotiating, thanks, and wish you the best. I'll quit a job before I have to strike or count on someone else to ensure my continued employment.
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Old 11-14-2012, 18:17   #302
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Good for you. I'm sure your employess appreciate that and want you to succeed.
Unions haven't ever come up in discussion and probably never will.

The employees see how hard I work to keep us all busy and paid, and they appreciate it. I pay them more than what most are paying around here and we all know it. I let them take time off for personal stuff when they need to, and I take them shooting too.

But, when you get down to it, everyone knows that I am the boss and I make the rules. No BS union is going to dictate to me how the business will run when they have nothing to lose if it fails. It's my show.
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Old 11-14-2012, 18:38   #303
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Someone on here said "Unions are always bad for a company".

Well of course, because there is a lot of money to be made in screwing people out of their pay, broken promises, skiping out on safe wroking practices.

Yes, Unions often go too far. Often in many states the laws are set up in favor to the unions. That's because the Unions often fund the Democratic party, that in turn, takes care of the Unions. So you have a state "for the union, by the union". This is wrong. It's not only bad for business, but it's bad for the employees. The only one that wins is the Union bosses.

In a non-union setting, and in some states, it's 100% in the boss's favor. If he suddenly wants to change your pay structure so he doesn't have to pay you as much, he can do so right in the middle of a pay period. He can (happened to me) suddenly one morning change policy and you have to abide by it. The only thing you can do, is quit. Well, it's not that easy, you need to put a roof over your families head and food in their mouths.

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Old 11-14-2012, 18:39   #304
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blah blah

Everyone's been wronged, repeatedly, in life for a variety of reasons. It hurts, but it really hurts if you dwell on it without learning from it. Step away from the keyboard, and find a new employer. People are trying to come to America from all over the world for a chance to collect trash at minimum wage.
This. These people trying to divine why this dude got fired are trying too hard. Maybe management sucks, I've seen plenty of idiot managers in my short time in the workforce. It doesn't matter. Just go get another job, preferably where management is worth a crap.
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Old 11-14-2012, 21:54   #305
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Someone on here said "Unions are always bad for a company".

Well of course, because there is a lot of money to be made in screwing people out of their pay, broken promises, skiping out on safe wroking practices.

Yes, Unions often go too far. Often in many states the laws are set up in favor to the unions. That's because the Unions often fund the Democratic party, that in turn, takes care of the Unions. So you have a state "for the union, by the union". This is wrong. It's not only bad for business, but it's bad for the employees. The only one that wins is the Union bosses.

In a non-union setting, and in some states, it's 100% in the boss's favor. If he suddenly wants to change your pay structure so he doesn't have to pay you as much, he can do so right in the middle of a pay period. He can (happened to me) suddenly one morning change policy and you have to abide by it. The only thing you can do, is quit. Well, it's not that easy, you need to put a roof over your families head and food in their mouths.
The point of a union is to increase the pay of people beyond what the market will bear at the expense of the customer, the shareholders, and their fellow workers.

If the union employees were worth the compensation they are receiving, then they would be able to secure said compensation without the help of the union.

A good union is like a good cartel. It uses collusion to create scarcity and reduce competition. It attempts to create a monopoly so that it can dictate the terms of transactions.

If you bring little to no skill and value to the job, then you have no one to blame but yourself. That's the simple truth of the matter that people try to hide from sight.

The lesson of the last 50 years is that it's better to close down the business than to give in to unions.

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Old 11-14-2012, 23:58   #306
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You guys act like it will instantly put you out of business. Here's what it does to a contractor- nothing. You may at worst have to give your guys a raise.
You have no clue. Saying it does "nothing" to the contractor and in the next breath saying it costs more. How does not having more expensive labor do "nothing" to a contractor? Either the customers price must be raised (jeopardizing a contract) or profit must be lowered. A minimum ROI is needed or the business is closed and then no jobs.


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Old 11-15-2012, 00:34   #307
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You have no clue. Saying it does "nothing" to the contractor and in the next breath saying it costs more. How does not having more expensive labor do "nothing" to a contractor? Either the customers price must be raised (jeopardizing a contract) or profit must be lowered. A minimum ROI is needed or the business is closed and then no jobs.


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Why leave out the rest of my post - like I said, maybe you already pay them above the union rate, then its your choice to pay them the rate or above it.
Also like I said, I'm talking about skilled labor trade unions. If contractors want the skilled labor, they pay the minimum set union rate. If you want to deny that unions offer LESS skilled, less trained and less efficient labor, let me know how you came up with this. Every one of our guys has at least done a 5 year apprentiship minimum. Somehow even though we make more than our non-union counterparts, we still manage to bid competitively and win jobs. The largest most profitable electrical contractors on the east coast are union, probably most nationwide as well. Why is that.
Some states like mine are starting to require that EVERY electrician union or not be required to have met minimum state apprentiship requirements and hours to be allowed to work as an electrician. Why are the republicans and non-union business owners fighting this tooth and nail? Now they have to hire QUALIFIED workers and that's a major problem for them. No more little kids out of highschool running jobs for minimum wage when the customer paid for a qualified electrician.
If you were building something and you got two bids the same price : one contractor every worker is drug tested before the job, hell even a background check if you wanted. EVERY worker has done minimum 5 years school. Without a doubt safer work practices, every worker offered free training and electrical code classes monthly
The other bid you don't know what your getting could be a crew full of illegals, guaranteed not all even did an apprentiship at all, if its a big project probably hiring out of a temp agency.
Who would you honestly pick to provide you with safer, quality work?
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Old 11-15-2012, 00:38   #308
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Well of course, because there is a lot of money to be made in screwing people out of their pay, broken promises, skiping out on safe wroking practices.
No, there's not.

A company that behaves like that won't be able to attract talent. Therefore, they'll lag behind their competitors and either have to change or eventually go under.

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In a non-union setting, and in some states, it's 100% in the boss's favor. If he suddenly wants to change your pay structure so he doesn't have to pay you as much, he can do so right in the middle of a pay period. He can (happened to me) suddenly one morning change policy and you have to abide by it.
It's not at all 100% in the boss's favor. Employees can screw around too. They can fail to show up for work on time. They can perform substandard work. There's all kinds of ways both employers and employees can mess with each other.

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The only thing you can do, is quit. Well, it's not that easy, you need to put a roof over your families head and food in their mouths.
It *is* that easy. Quitting is the ultimate power than an employee has.

Make yourself valuable enough that your boss doesn't mess with you that way. Be important enough that if you quit, your boss's business wouldn't run well, and then he'll never mess with you.

If quitting your job means you can't feed your family, well then I guess you need to man up and deal with whatever your boss is doing--you've put yourself in a position where the boss has power over you. Look around and figure out what you can do to change that, don't ask the government to come in and "protect" you. Besides the implications against our freedoms, the fact is that the government is a blunt instrument. It doesn't do complicated things like that very well.
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Old 11-15-2012, 00:43   #309
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Your building something and you get two bids the same price : one contractor every worker is drug tested before the job, hell even a background check if you wanted. EVERY worker has done minimum 5 years school. Without a doubt safer work practices, every worker offered free training and electrical code classes monthly
The other bid you don't know what your getting could be a crew full of illegals, guaranteed not all even did an apprentiship at all, if its a big project probably hiring out of a temp agency.
Who would you honestly pick
This is a simple sales equation. One side is selling additional value at a high price and the other is selling the bare minimum at a bare-bones price.

The answer is, it depends on whether the perceived value for you is greater than the additional cost. That will vary from job to job and person to person, I'd imagine.

For example, just because a guy doesn't belong to a union doesn't mean he doesn't know his stuff. Maybe I meet with the non-union guy and I'm impressed. Maybe his crew seems like they work harder than the union crew. You're making all kinds of assumptions about both groups: that the union guys all take their continuing education seriously, and that the non-union guys don't have experience. Both of those assumptions might be true, or might be false. If it were me, I'd do some research before I picked one or the other.
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:08   #310
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Why do all the data centers(JP Morgan chase, bank one, Google, Facebook, amazon), new hospitals, huge casinos, etc almost always go union?
You just discredited your entire argument with this statement. Do you really think the employer welcomed the union hooligans to speak for their employees?????
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:31   #311
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You just discredited your entire argument with this statement. Do you really think the employer welcomed the union hooligans to speak for their employees?????
Uhh ya, 99% of the electrical contractors in the ibew have opened their doors as a union contractor , like the company I've been with for a few years and all but one I've worked for in my whole career. The one that was organized the owner is doing extremely well and two years ago they had their most profitable year EVER since opening in the 80's after being union for 2 years. Said contractor is friggin huge, was one of the largest non-union shops on the east coast before going union.
How would that ruin my whole argument anyway when the customer (google,amazon, jp Morgan, bank one) hired a union contractor to do their work. It's not like someone got the job, THEN unionized.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:00   #312
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The point of a union is to increase the pay of people beyond what the market will bear at the expense of the customer, the shareholders, and their fellow workers.

If the union employees were worth the compensation they are receiving, then they would be able to secure said compensation without the help of the union.

A good union is like a good cartel. It uses collusion to create scarcity and reduce competition. It attempts to create a monopoly so that it can dictate the terms of transactions.

If you bring little to no skill and value to the job, then you have no one to blame but yourself. That's the simple truth of the matter that people try to hide from sight.

The lesson of the last 50 years is that it's better to close down the business than to give in to unions.
I agree with much of what you are saying. Unions abuse their position. You would think a Union would like to see a company thrive, because it would grow, hire more employees, and that means more members, which would mean more dues, RIGHT? Trying to keep the members happy, they just keep pushing for more, even if it means everyone losing their jobs, because to a Union, everyone losing their jobs because the company went bankrupt is the same as the company booting the Union out. Same to them.

Yes, bringing skill to the job, does help you. However, especially in this economy, for most career paths, it's picking the lesser of the evils. Instead of this company better than the other, it's one company isn't as bad as the other.

In my profession, it seems everyone has to move around all the time from company to company. You find a good company, then they start to play their games until people start leaving, then they get better. I'm tired of this cycle.

Over my career, I have been shafted out of so much pay. One is free work. Often they include free services with ther services especially if they only require labor. Then, there is warranty work. I did my job right, but because the part they ordered went bad, I get to do it for free. How about having to stay late and then come in the next day early to get a job done by the deadline, then of course they send me home early when it gets slower to avoid paying overtime. Well, I put in the overtime working late and then coming in early didn't I? The issue is almost all automotive shops do this, it's accepted by most workers. Perhaps if we unionized it would put a stop to that. The cost of Union dues would be much less than the cost of these games. Now, I wouldn't expect more than just being fair, but I know what a union would do, they would go beyond that. That is the issue, they won't be fair. I want my employer to prosper

At least the way it is now, I have a job. Actually, currently, I don't work in a shop, I work for a big company doing equipment repair. The pay initially sucks, but I don't have to play these games. There are good companies, but the openings don't come up as much now adays. I am good at what I do, maybe not the best, but better than most. They can play games with the slackers. So that's my "personal strike" so to speak.

If you don't want your workers to Unionize, don't give them a reason to.


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No, there's not.

A company that behaves like that won't be able to attract talent. Therefore, they'll lag behind their competitors and either have to change or eventually go under.



It's not at all 100% in the boss's favor. Employees can screw around too. They can fail to show up for work on time. They can perform substandard work. There's all kinds of ways both employers and employees can mess with each other.



It *is* that easy. Quitting is the ultimate power than an employee has.

Make yourself valuable enough that your boss doesn't mess with you that way. Be important enough that if you quit, your boss's business wouldn't run well, and then he'll never mess with you.

If quitting your job means you can't feed your family, well then I guess you need to man up and deal with whatever your boss is doing--you've put yourself in a position where the boss has power over you. Look around and figure out what you can do to change that, don't ask the government to come in and "protect" you. Besides the implications against our freedoms, the fact is that the government is a blunt instrument. It doesn't do complicated things like that very well.
Okay, even if your employees go Union, you don't have to do what the Union asks, but all your employees will strike, which basically is like everyone quitting at once. If this means it would shut down your business, you have to consider what is a better value, pay them more, or shut down. Same thing.

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Old 11-15-2012, 06:05   #313
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Unions like IBEW contribute tens of millions of dollars to democrat politicians.

When new gun laws are enacted, we have the unions like IBEW to thank.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:16   #314
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Unions like IBEW contribute tens of millions of dollars to democrat politicians.

When new gun laws are enacted, we have the unions like IBEW to thank.

Exactly, they buy the politicians. The politicians know if they want that money to keep coming they better provide a service to the one paying them. The laws are set up in the Union's favor. This is not right. Just like some of these very wealthy people do the same. CEO's of major corps do the same thing.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:46   #315
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The good ole boys of the IBEW gave $19MM of hard money to democrats last year. They gave $600k to republicans.

http://www.unionfacts.com/union/Inte...trical_Workers

That's just hard money.

They also spent $32MM of soft money. I'm sure that % breakout is similar.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:31   #316
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Uhh ya, 99% of the electrical contractors in the ibew have opened their doors as a union contractor , like the company I've been with for a few years and all but one I've worked for in my whole career. The one that was organized the owner is doing extremely well and two years ago they had their most profitable year EVER since opening in the 80's after being union for 2 years. Said contractor is friggin huge, was one of the largest non-union shops on the east coast before going union.
How would that ruin my whole argument anyway when the customer (google,amazon, jp Morgan, bank one) hired a union contractor to do their work. It's not like someone got the job, THEN unionized.
Wait.....you just shifted from banks, websites, and casinos being unionized to electrical contractors temporarily hired to do electrical work by those companies. Two very different things that don't have anything to do with one another. I am talking about unions forcing their way into companies by employee vote and thats what you made it sound like you were talking about too. Pick one argument and stick to it rather than mixng and matching different things where it is convenient.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:48   #317
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I know it has it's benefits like being able to quit. But do you think that it should be revised so that employers can't terminate without reason or warning?

With the way the economy is, I think employees should at least be given a verbal and/or written warning before being terminated and have the chance to 'fix' whatever the issue may be.

Seems there's so much talk about getting people back to work and creating job but what about keeping people at work?
After 25 years, Comcast told me I did a great job and will be missed but we are not doing what you do anymore. Thanks for your service! This was a Nationwide decision. After they realized their mistake and still needed me locally, they sold me all the equipment for me to run my own business at pennies on the dollar. I was upset to loose a nice salary and 5 weeks vacation and my healthcare insurance having a wife and two teenagers to support at home. It is their company and they can do what they wish. I'm doing well but was going to retire at 55/35 years of service.....not now. It is what it is and life goes on. I would never want to work for a Union and see the damage they do first hand.

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Old 11-15-2012, 08:33   #318
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Wait.....you just shifted from banks, websites, and casinos being unionized to electrical contractors temporarily hired to do electrical work by those companies. Two very different things that don't have anything to do with one another. I am talking about unions forcing their way into companies by employee vote and thats what you made it sound like you were talking about too. Pick one argument and stick to it rather than mixng and matching different things where it is convenient.
How am I mixing and matching when I said one thing that you misinterpreted, but then understood what I originally posted when I clarified what I was talking about? I said these huge jobs and tier one data centers almost always go union and I was talking about initial construction and maintenance. I posted that was what I did, if you didn't understand what I was saying that doesnt mean my position changed cause it was convenient, cause my position never changed.
Who would you hire, a group of skilled union workers, or a group of illegal Mexicans, sounds like most of you would go with the illegals just to not hire a union worker because of your unwarranted extreme prejudice against us
Funny thing is the cost would be close to the same, one owner pays his guys what their worth, the other pays 2-3 dollars an hour but the owners
pocket gets lined with the difference
And that's fine. I know I'm not gonna change any minds on here, since you union haters have it figured out that when we pro union guys are gone, the working class will be hunky dory, corporations will treat everyone fair.
You say unions are no longer needed, but your just as misinformed as the people who say guns are no longer needed in the us, its not the wild west anymore. I'm wrong for belonging to a group that has my best interests at heart, for the same reasons we belong to the NRA. Group of people with a common goal to better what they believe is right as a group.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:24   #319
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And why do you feel the need to constantly say mexicans and illegals? Is your level of skill so low you worry about them "taking your job"?

Me. I don't have that problem.


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Old 11-15-2012, 10:01   #320
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And why do you feel the need to constantly say mexicans and illegals? Is your level of skill so low you worry about them "taking your job"?

Me. I don't have that problem.


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Ya that's exactly it. When's the last time you walked on a jobsite? Companys literally hire them by the dozen and pay them nothing. Do you believe this doesn't happen every day? On resedential projects not even minimum wage employees can compete with that, but this something non-union shops take advantage of, whether you like it or not, agree with it or not.
Why does this bother you, is it one of your business models?
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:13   #321
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Now what if you land a huge job and you need 10 times the manpower you have now, quickly. What would you do if you didn't have a hall to hire out of? Hire Joe schmo off the street. Hire some pedo off craigslist? A crew of illegals? A temp agency who got their guys from a jail halfway house/street combo?
You make one call to the local, unlimited supply of EQUALLY trained, qualified workers, the next day
If the union employees are so much more qualified, why would they be sitting around available for work the NEXT DAY? Not just one or two, but 10x the amount I currently have.

Most people that I have employed that have had skill sets above and beyond don't sit around for the day someone decides they need more staff.

You have inadvertantly given away the union secret. They try and limit labor to drive prices up to the point where they would rather have members doing nothing wait to staff up the next day and "help out"

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Old 11-15-2012, 10:59   #322
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Unions like IBEW contribute tens of millions of dollars to democrat politicians.

When new gun laws are enacted, we have the unions like IBEW to thank.
I completely forgot about that aspect. My union dues was being spent on backing Al Gore, and I was strongly encouraged to vote along those lines. Fortunately, ballots are still secret.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:08   #323
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If the union employees are so much more qualified, why would they be sitting around available for work the NEXT DAY? Not just one or two, but 10x the amount I currently have.

Most people that I have employed that have had skill sets above and beyond don't sit around for the day someone decides they need more staff.

You have inadvertantly given away the union secret. They try and limit labor to drive prices up to the point where they would rather have members doing nothing wait to staff up the next day and "help out"

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You have no idea how it works now your grasping at straws. The hall has a list of guys available for work. Most union construction workers go from contractor to contractor, job to job. Sometimes its personnel preference, sometimes a job winds down where it doesn't need 100 guys any more, they go on the list. Another contractor needs 50 guys for a few months tomorrow, the ones who have been out the longest get called first. If it so happens our particular local is currently at full employment, we call one of our sister locals, get manpower from them. The reverse applies, if I've been out for a few weeks, and no calls get to me, I can take a call anywhere in the US if I want.
Some calls may last a day, some 10 years, the member has the option to take or deny calls, but the call will always get filled. Nice try on 'limiting- labor' that makes no sense. Why would we limit what labor a contractor has access to when they are the ones who pay us. We KNOW the contractor must succeed for us to work. If they absolutely need guys for a job we wouldn't risk losing that job or the contractor so we could create a false labor shortage. It would be the opposite, they have access to as much as they need. This is a quick explanation there's obviously more to it that only this, but that's the jist of it
Some guys wait for overtime calls, work six months or 8 months, make 100k then take the rest off. Some guys hate overtime and avoid calls that ask for it. Some guys want summer off, some winter, some work 40's year round. Some like to travel to other states and work while they're there.
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Last edited by di11igaf; 11-15-2012 at 11:24..
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:21   #324
Roger1079
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Originally Posted by di11igaf View Post
Who would you hire, a group of skilled union workers, or a group of illegal Mexicans, sounds like most of you would go with the illegals just to not hire a union worker because of your unwarranted extreme prejudice against us
Funny thing is the cost would be close to the same, one owner pays his guys what their worth, the other pays 2-3 dollars an hour but the owners
pocket gets lined with the difference
And that's fine. I know I'm not gonna change any minds on here, since you union haters have it figured out that when we pro union guys are gone, the working class will be hunky dory, corporations will treat everyone fair.
You say unions are no longer needed, but your just as misinformed as the people who say guns are no longer needed in the us, its not the wild west anymore. I'm wrong for belonging to a group that has my best interests at heart, for the same reasons we belong to the NRA. Group of people with a common goal to better what they believe is right as a group.
First off, I am not against hiring union workers as CONTRACTORS. Because once the job is done they leave taking the union along with them. I am against unions permanently in a workplace.

Did you even bother to read my earlier posts in this thread that said that I used to have a job where I belonged to a union, the IBEW specifically along with a very real example of why unions are a problem and not a solution? I bet you either didn't or have no logical response since you had nothing to say about it. All you keep repeating is stuff about illegal mexicans and how union workers have exceptional expertise in their respective field beyond non union workers.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:10   #325
di11igaf
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Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
First off, I am not against hiring union workers as CONTRACTORS. Because once the job is done they leave taking the union along with them. I am against unions permanently in a workplace.

Did you even bother to read my earlier posts in this thread that said that I used to have a job where I belonged to a union, the IBEW specifically along with a very real example of why unions are a problem and not a solution? I bet you either didn't or have no logical response since you had nothing to say about it. All you keep repeating is stuff about illegal mexicans and how union workers have exceptional expertise in their respective field beyond non union workers.
Nope, I didnt read your specific post as I haven't read every page in this thread, so fair point. I'll look for it.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42