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Old 11-15-2012, 04:03   #61
NEOH212
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Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post


Except...the 10mm.
Sorry but outside of penetration, I don't see what the 10mm does that the .40 doesn't already do for all practical purposes.

For self defense, I don't need more than the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP.

For the woods, I want more that what the 10mm has to offer.

It's a good cartridge in it's own right but I can't justify the cost and recoil when the .40 or .45 does everything I need them to do without the cost, recoil, bulk, and the sever potential for over penetration.


To sum it up, my personal feeling on the 10mm is it's too much for the two legged critters and too little for the four legged ones. Too much in one case and not (or barely) enough in the other. I just never saw what the 10mm could do for me that cartridges slightly larger or slightly smaller couldn't do already.

The 10mm was a solution in search of a problem and was more of a bastard round than the .40 S&W IMHO.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:05   #62
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Originally Posted by Electrikkoolaid View Post
Set that off inside your house some night, and I hope you actually get that "one shot stop", because you'll be blind and deaf for several minutes afterwards.
Yet another reason I carry a .45 and not a .357 Mag. It's still hard to argue against the track record of the .357 Mag and that particular load though. Maybe if this was 1960 I'd be carrying one!
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:28   #63
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It seems to me that it's the 9mm people who are trying to compensate for something.

I mean, why do they have to post about things like this to reassure themselves?

All these threads about "Hey, my 9 is fine". Seems like there is some insecurities.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:12   #64
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Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Sorry but outside of penetration, I don't see what the 10mm does that the .40 doesn't already do for all practical purposes.

For self defense, I don't need more than the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP.

For the woods, I want more that what the 10mm has to offer.

It's a good cartridge in it's own right but I can't justify the cost and recoil when the .40 or .45 does everything I need them to do without the cost, recoil, bulk, and the sever potential for over penetration.


To sum it up, my personal feeling on the 10mm is it's too much for the two legged critters and too little for the four legged ones. Too much in one case and not (or barely) enough in the other. I just never saw what the 10mm could do for me that cartridges slightly larger or slightly smaller couldn't do already.

The 10mm was a solution in search of a problem and was more of a bastard round than the .40 S&W IMHO.
Excellent and accurate post.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:01   #65
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Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Sorry but outside of penetration, I don't see what the 10mm does that the .40 doesn't already do for all practical purposes.

For self defense, I don't need more than the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP.

For the woods, I want more that what the 10mm has to offer.

It's a good cartridge in it's own right but I can't justify the cost and recoil when the .40 or .45 does everything I need them to do without the cost, recoil, bulk, and the sever potential for over penetration.


To sum it up, my personal feeling on the 10mm is it's too much for the two legged critters and too little for the four legged ones. Too much in one case and not (or barely) enough in the other. I just never saw what the 10mm could do for me that cartridges slightly larger or slightly smaller couldn't do already.

The 10mm was a solution in search of a problem and was more of a bastard round than the .40 S&W IMHO.
I agree with your post for the most part. I have nothing against the 10mm at all, however for carry I'm fine with the .40 and .45. If I go out in the woods, I'm carrying something with a good bit more power than the 10mm can offer, although there is nothing wrong with hunting with a Glock.

If there was a huge difference between the 10mm and .40, say 400-500 fps and it used bullets designed specifically for the extra speed, maybe the 10mm would have more merit with me. As it stands, there's maybe 150 fps difference between them both (loaded hot), which brings me to the issue of penetration.

I don't think the 10mm generally suffers from over penetration with JHP bullets and here's why. A hot loaded 10mm (as well as a hot loaded .40) can both push essentially every JHP bullet out there beyond the velocity they're designed for. That generally decreases penetration instead of increasing it. That's not necessarily bad, but then again, pushing a bullet faster than what it's meant to be driven isn't exactly good either, as bullet failure tends to limit penetration.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:36   #66
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The 9mm is the superior choice because it has a reputation for requiring mag dumps, so it's politically correct to burst a quick 15 rounds to center mass before the BG can even fall down. Cops routinely do this, even in groups, making it legally defensible.

Anybody who tries this with a super-dooper one shot stop state of the art caliber like 10mm or anything starting with a 4 could be charged with excessive force.

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Old 11-15-2012, 10:08   #67
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Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Sorry but outside of penetration, I don't see what the 10mm does that the .40 doesn't already do for all practical purposes.

For self defense, I don't need more than the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP.

For the woods, I want more that what the 10mm has to offer.

It's a good cartridge in it's own right but I can't justify the cost and recoil when the .40 or .45 does everything I need them to do without the cost, recoil, bulk, and the sever potential for over penetration.


To sum it up, my personal feeling on the 10mm is it's too much for the two legged critters and too little for the four legged ones. Too much in one case and not (or barely) enough in the other. I just never saw what the 10mm could do for me that cartridges slightly larger or slightly smaller couldn't do already.

The 10mm was a solution in search of a problem and was more of a bastard round than the .40 S&W IMHO.
Did you just say too much power and mention a handgun cartrige in the same sentence? God forbid using a 12g, that's too much power!!!
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:50   #68
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But if you haven't resolved the battle after 34 rounds, do you think you will still be able to get to your M500 even if they were only shooting .22s at you?

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I'd go for my shotgun while I was still shooting my initial 17 rounds from my G17.
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Old 11-15-2012, 16:47   #69
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Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Sorry but outside of penetration, I don't see what the 10mm does that the .40 doesn't already do for all practical purposes.

For self defense, I don't need more than the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP.

For the woods, I want more that what the 10mm has to offer.

It's a good cartridge in it's own right but I can't justify the cost and recoil when the .40 or .45 does everything I need them to do without the cost, recoil, bulk, and the sever potential for over penetration.


To sum it up, my personal feeling on the 10mm is it's too much for the two legged critters and too little for the four legged ones. Too much in one case and not (or barely) enough in the other. I just never saw what the 10mm could do for me that cartridges slightly larger or slightly smaller couldn't do already.

The 10mm was a solution in search of a problem and was more of a bastard round than the .40 S&W IMHO.
Well, I've replied to you in another thread on nearly the same thing so I won't repeat it here too much...but I'll cover a few different points.

I understand that you test your ammo, I don't know how or what you do for testing. It would seem to me that if you can't see any difference between the other calibers you mention besides penetration, I would only guess that you may not be shooting enough stuff. Whether it's water jugs, magazines, car parts, whatever...it's been my experience the 10mm flat out stands above the others you've mentioned with authority. Here again, this is just an assumption and I won't pretend to know what you do for testing. My tests are not scientific in the least but I do not form my opinions of the 10mm capabilities on my tests, or any one test alone.

On another note, in reference to your post regarding the .357 mag. You would think it would be hard to argue the 10mm ballistic capabilities when it's toting the same numbers or better than the King of stopping. The .357 did this with antiquated bullet design which had a strong tendency to fragment. I know you like published street data for backing but damn, sometimes a freight train is a freight train.
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Old 11-15-2012, 16:54   #70
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The 9mm is the superior choice because it has a reputation for requiring mag dumps, so it's politically correct to burst a quick 15 rounds to center mass before the BG can even fall down. Cops routinely do this, even in groups, making it legally defensible.

Anybody who tries this with a super-dooper one shot stop state of the art caliber like 10mm or anything starting with a 4 could be charged with excessive force.

This is good to hear, CTM. For I will put a 12-round group on the torso of my attacker.
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Old 11-15-2012, 20:09   #71
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Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
Sorry but outside of penetration, I don't see what the 10mm does that the .40 doesn't already do for all practical purposes.

For self defense, I don't need more than the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP.

For the woods, I want more that what the 10mm has to offer.

It's a good cartridge in it's own right but I can't justify the cost and recoil when the .40 or .45 does everything I need them to do without the cost, recoil, bulk, and the sever potential for over penetration.


To sum it up, my personal feeling on the 10mm is it's too much for the two legged critters and too little for the four legged ones. Too much in one case and not (or barely) enough in the other. I just never saw what the 10mm could do for me that cartridges slightly larger or slightly smaller couldn't do already.

The 10mm was a solution in search of a problem and was more of a bastard round than the .40 S&W IMHO.

I am always amazed how the 10mm has the love/hate thing going. Few folks in the middle.

As for me, I like my G20SF and actually chose this over a 45, also owning 9 mm and 40 SW. The 10mm pistols are really no bigger than the 45's and not really much more expensive to shoot either, biggest issue is ammo is harder to find. Last time I checked, G20 and G21 were about same price too and far less than a decent 1911.

I picked the 10 over 45 as it has more options in a single platform. Can run a wider range of bullet weghts than either 40 or 45 and factory loads range from 40 power to near nuke loads from Underwood. I have found the G20 also shoots 40 bulk ammo you can buy at Walmart and after using this hundreds of times have yet to have it fail to function. Recoil, even with the hottest loads, is managable and muzzle blast is far less than a 4 inch 357 or 44.

I am a better shot with the G20 than my other choices which would make me lean towards this for HD. 165 Gold Dots at about 1400 fps seem like a reasonable choice for this duty. The G23 is a better CCW choice but if I could I would swap it for a G29. (they also function with 40 ammo)

There are lots of bastard rounds out there that have their fans. Besides 10 mm there is the 38 Super, 9x25 Dillon, 45 Super, 45-08 and newest on the block 460 Rowland. I am considering the 9x25 next, mostly as it is different. Each to his own.
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Old 11-15-2012, 20:42   #72
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I am always amazed how the 10mm has the love/hate thing going. Few folks in the middle.

As for me, I like my G20SF and actually chose this over a 45, also owning 9 mm and 40 SW. The 10mm pistols are really no bigger than the 45's and not really much more expensive to shoot either, biggest issue is ammo is harder to find. Last time I checked, G20 and G21 were about same price too and far less than a decent 1911.

I picked the 10 over 45 as it has more options in a single platform. Can run a wider range of bullet weghts than either 40 or 45 and factory loads range from 40 power to near nuke loads from Underwood. I have found the G20 also shoots 40 bulk ammo you can buy at Walmart and after using this hundreds of times have yet to have it fail to function. Recoil, even with the hottest loads, is managable and muzzle blast is far less than a 4 inch 357 or 44.

I am a better shot with the G20 than my other choices which would make me lean towards this for HD. 165 Gold Dots at about 1400 fps seem like a reasonable choice for this duty. The G23 is a better CCW choice but if I could I would swap it for a G29. (they also function with 40 ammo)

There are lots of bastard rounds out there that have their fans. Besides 10 mm there is the 38 Super, 9x25 Dillon, 45 Super, 45-08 and newest on the block 460 Rowland. I am considering the 9x25 next, mostly as it is different. Each to his own.
I may get a G20 soon!
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Old 11-15-2012, 22:29   #73
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Love my 19, and have no worries of putting someone to the ground with it if need be.


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Old 11-16-2012, 10:55   #74
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Here's what the FBI has to say on the subject: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:11   #75
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Love my 19, and have no worries of putting someone to the ground with it if need be.


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Good for you, sir - outstanding!
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:32   #76
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Sorry but outside of penetration, I don't see what the 10mm does that the .40 doesn't already do for all practical purposes.
And penetration is the only part I care about. I want as much of it as I can get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212
It's a good cartridge in it's own right but I can't justify the cost and recoil when the .40 or .45 does everything I need them to do without the cost, recoil, bulk, and the sever potential for over penetration.
There is no such thing as "over penetration" with handgun rounds. Any handgun caliber bullet that passes THROUGH a human being gives us a GREAT amount of energy in doing so. It never ceases to amaze me how often this concept of "over penetration" comes up despite the fact that in my 14 years of shooting and being a member of multiple gun-centric internet forums, despite clicking on literally thousands of provided links to local shootings/murders/gun-related events - I've never ONCE read about an actual situation where a handgun-caliber bullet passed through someone COM and still managed to injure someone behind the initial victim. Despite this, there is at least one thread per day where SOMEONE feels like they have to use the term "over penetration".

Let's make this clear: "Over Penetration" is a term coined by people who've chosen a relatively "smaller" caliber firearm for any number of reasons, who wish not to be seen as "wimpy". I feel that .38s and 9mms have their place with benefits like concealment, low-recoil, cost to train, and most importantly, capacity. But since I live in NY and capacity is a moot point (I'm limited to no more than 10 round magazines for any weapon), I'll take 10+1 rounds of physically larger and deeper-penetrating 10mm over 9mm every day of the week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEOH212
To sum it up, my personal feeling on the 10mm is it's too much for the two legged critters and too little for the four legged ones. Too much in one case and not (or barely) enough in the other. I just never saw what the 10mm could do for me that cartridges slightly larger or slightly smaller couldn't do already.

The 10mm was a solution in search of a problem and was more of a bastard round than the .40 S&W IMHO.
I like the 10mm because it has the same OAL as a .45ACP which means it fits in those handguns (for instance the 1911, a favored platform of mine) and has significantly more energy and penetration than a .40S&W which already has a penetration advantage over .45ACP.

Also, I don't like wasting things. Putting a short-cased 9mm or .40S&W in a platform like a 1911 designed for a cartridge with a 1.275" OAL is like putting a .38-special into a .357 revolver. Sure, you can do it, but why give up all that potential, especially when the heavy weight of the 1911 platform does so much to reduce the recoil (full power 10mm loads out of my 5" 1911 feel remarkably similar to full power .40S&W loads out of my Glock 23). I'm getting off track here, but that's why I prefer the 10mm.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:38   #77
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Re-reading my above post - it sounds as if I'm putting down smaller calibers. I am not. In fact, I think the Glock 19 is one of the greatest firearms ever and would still have mine (it was my first firearm) if I didn't consolidate calibers a few years back.

My post was not meant to attack smaller calibers but to defend larger ones. That "over-penetration" term is thrown about so often around here one starts to feel like others are looking at them as being irresponsible and I fear that new-comers to our sport/hobby might end up being turned away from the idea of a larger caliber for reasons that aren't sound.

Apologies.
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Old 11-16-2012, 14:10   #78
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Re-reading my above post - it sounds as if I'm putting down smaller calibers. I am not. In fact, I think the Glock 19 is one of the greatest firearms ever and would still have mine (it was my first firearm) if I didn't consolidate calibers a few years back.

My post was not meant to attack smaller calibers but to defend larger ones. That "over-penetration" term is thrown about so often around here one starts to feel like others are looking at them as being irresponsible and I fear that new-comers to our sport/hobby might end up being turned away from the idea of a larger caliber for reasons that aren't sound.

Apologies.
So true. We expect ammo makers to make cartridges that will deliver a bullet to the back-side skin of an attacker and not an inch farther. I am happy to use a round that is known to "overpenetrate" because of the wound channel along the way through the target.
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Old 11-16-2012, 19:40   #79
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Did you just say too much power and mention a handgun cartrige in the same sentence? God forbid using a 12g, that's too much power!!!
Exactly. I love these gt threads... First they'll all blather about how a handgun is too weak, then they'll tell you 10mm is too strong...

Bottom line... My 155 grain underwood 10mm is putting out practically 2x the kinetic energy of the average 45.... In all honestly they aren't even in the same ball park

Hot 10mm is so vastly ballistically superior to 45acp that it isn't even worth discussing. Not saying you need all that power, but the power is there nevertheless.
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Old 11-16-2012, 19:41   #80
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78 posts on caliber confusion ..

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