GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-14-2012, 06:00   #51
Big Bird
NRA Life Member
 
Big Bird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 10,054
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Being able to "haul your shot up ass" is of little consequence when that same buddy is too slow to react to a sudden threat before it pumps you full of holes in the first place.

Women and men BOTH have respective physical advantages and disadvantages in modern infantry warfare. Dismissing one sex because they can't do as many pushups while ignoring the fact that they are generally faster and have better fine motor coordination when handling weapons is short-sighted, at best.
If women are faster and have better motor skills how come they aren't wide receivers in the NFL? How come the men outrun them in the Olympics? Women aren't "faster" than men....

If you've never served in an infantry capacity you have no idea how physically demanding it is. Try fast roping off a helicopter with 80 lbs of equipment.... Try running a coupe hundred yards with a mortar tube. And as I've always said...I've yet to meet a woman who can take a 58# heat round from the ready rack in a tank. Rotate it 180 degrees with one arm in a confined space, and slam it home in the breech of a tank with the other arm in the space of 3 seconds. My fattest, slowest male soldier in my tank platoon could do that without fail. Is that important? Oh yeah...try fighting a tank with a loader who can't get the job done in a reasonable amount of time (fast is the ONLY reasonable amount of time allowed here) Or one that could pick up and REPLACE an 80# roadwheel by herself. Or apply 320 ft lbs of torque to a hub bolt on the sprocket--there are like 16 on each side...

Then there's the obstacle course that women can't negotiate because it requires the upper body strength to pull your body up and over things...forget the fact that they aren't even carrying equipment.

As I've always said--you want to see discrimination? Put an average weight 140# female soldier in a Pugil Stick match with an average weight 180# soldier. 99% of the time go see who get the living crap beat out of them. But women are faster and more agile right? Gimme a break.

Every fire department that has women on the force has a different set of physical standards for women. Same with the police.

40% of women fail Marine Corps Boot camp for physical reasons. 16% of men fail for the same reasons.

At what point do we have to accommodate women in training for infantry roles when we have to put 100 women through the program to find 2 that can hack it? or 5 or even 10? When does the defense needs of the nation and the cost/benefit of training women for combat override our need to use taxpayer dollars to literally buy the most bang for the buck?

Here's a two combat tour female Marine Captain that has a VERY different view than you on this subject. She has more experience than you and I'd submit a better perspective. Perhaps you would not discount her opinion so casually:

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/a...-created-equal

Quoted from the article:

By the fifth month into the deployment, I had muscle atrophy in my thighs that was causing me to constantly trip and my legs to buckle with the slightest grade change. My agility during firefights and mobility on and off vehicles and perimeter walls was seriously hindering my response time and overall capability. It was evident that stress and muscular deterioration was affecting everyone regardless of gender; however, the rate of my deterioration was noticeably faster than that of male Marines and further compounded by gender-specific medical conditions. At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.

and

There is a drastic shortage of historical data on female attrition or medical ailments of women who have executed sustained combat operations. This said, we need only to review the statistics from our entry-level schools to realize that there is a significant difference in the physical longevity between male and female Marines. At OCS the attrition rate for female candidates in 2011 was historically low at 40 percent, while the male candidates attrite at a much lower rate of 16 percent. Of candidates who were dropped from training because they were injured or not physically qualified, females were breaking at a much higher rate than males, 14 percent versus 4 percent. The same trends were seen at TBS in 2011; the attrition rate for females was 13 percent versus 5 percent for males, and 5 percent of females were found not physically qualified compared with 1 percent of males. Further, both of these training venues have physical fitness standards that are easier for females; at IOC there is one standard regardless of gender. The attrition rate for males attending IOC in 2011 was 17 percent. Should female Marines ultimately attend IOC, we can expect significantly higher attrition rates and long-term injuries for women.
__________________
Big Bird,

“Est Nulla Via Invia Virute”

Last edited by Big Bird; 11-14-2012 at 06:21..
Big Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 07:21   #52
FLIPPER 348
Happy Member
 
FLIPPER 348's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Bend Oregon
Posts: 21,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post

Women may not have the upper body strength that most men have, and they may need some different physical standards as a result,


absolutely not


The Army caved on this, hopefully the Marines will not.
FLIPPER 348 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 07:23   #53
FLIPPER 348
Happy Member
 
FLIPPER 348's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Bend Oregon
Posts: 21,824
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post

In modern combat, it isn't all about upper body strength.

It sure as hell is.


When your leg gets blown off and you need to be carried out RFN to safety & MEDIVAC your 'buddy' better be up to the task.
FLIPPER 348 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 07:47   #54
redbaron007
Lifetime Membership
A Nice Prick!
 
redbaron007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southwest Missouri
Posts: 6,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
In modern combat, a fight is more often decided by reaction time and hand-eye coordination than by sheer strength. To use your own gambit, should someone call "time out" in a firefight to wait for the slower male soldier with lesser fine motor skills to draw aim and accurately fire at a threat?
Your assumption that all women have these traits and all men don't, is substantially flawed. So, therefore, your argument is void.



red
__________________
TopGun *357sig* Club - #2632
The 10 Ring #00720

R.I.P. Cajunator® ~ R.I.P. Mullah (aka El Ron)
R.I.P. GioaJack ~ R.I.P. Okie
redbaron007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:01   #55
G36's Rule
Senior Member
 
G36's Rule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Spring, TX.
Posts: 14,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
In modern combat, a fight is more often decided by reaction time and hand-eye coordination than by sheer strength. To use your own gambit, should someone call "time out" in a firefight to wait for the slower male soldier with lesser fine motor skills to draw aim and accurately fire at a threat?
I would like to see you support your claims of female superiority in reaction time and motor skills.

Last edited by G36's Rule; 11-14-2012 at 08:01..
G36's Rule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:05   #56
Carrys
Inquisitive
 
Carrys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Green Country
Posts: 13,232
Nothing we say or think is going to matter.

This is a done deal, tis a sign of the times and what our Country has come to.

Hide and watch.
__________________
If Men Won't Even Obey Their Govt.......What Makes Anyone Believe They Will Obey Their God?

Men Seem To Think Their God Is Like Their Govt.......He Is Supposed To Give Them Things, Not Ask Anything Of them.
Carrys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:24   #57
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,281


Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post

Quoted from the article:

By the fifth month into the deployment, I had muscle atrophy in my thighs that was causing me to constantly trip and my legs to buckle with the slightest grade change. My agility during firefights and mobility on and off vehicles and perimeter walls was seriously hindering my response time and overall capability. It was evident that stress and muscular deterioration was affecting everyone regardless of gender; however, the rate of my deterioration was noticeably faster than that of male Marines and further compounded by gender-specific medical conditions. At the end of the 7-month deployment, and the construction of 18 PBs later, I had lost 17 pounds and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome (which personally resulted in infertility, but is not a genetic trend in my family), which was brought on by the chemical and physical changes endured during deployment. Regardless of my deteriorating physical stature, I was extremely successful during both of my combat tours, serving beside my infantry brethren and gaining the respect of every unit I supported. Regardless, I can say with 100 percent assurance that despite my accomplishments, there is no way I could endure the physical demands of the infantrymen whom I worked beside as their combat load and constant deployment cycle would leave me facing medical separation long before the option of retirement. I understand that everyone is affected differently; however, I am confident that should the Marine Corps attempt to fully integrate women into the infantry, we as an institution are going to experience a colossal increase in crippling and career-ending medical conditions for females.
It's tough to argue with a first-hand account like the woman's you cite.
__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:30   #58
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,170
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
TSMO, do you have any practical experience in the matter or is your only familierity in this subject what you have read in the reports your using as sustinence?
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:40   #59
jollygreen
Senior Member
 
jollygreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 919
I have no problem with women in combat, law enforcement or firefighting as long as they pass the standards everyone else must pass.

What I have a problem with is relaxing those standards just to accomodate some particular demographic group.

Such as a major city no longer requiring cops to be able to read in order to include a particular minority, etc.

I have a firefighter friend who said that their department is an equal opportunity employer. The women on the department, however, aren't able to fulfill necessary tasks. For example, they have to carry a big roll of hose up stairs. A male firefighter has to stop whatever he's doing to help some liberated broad do her job.

That's not right.
__________________
These are great days we're living, bros. We are jolly green giants, walking the Earth with guns.
jollygreen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 08:44   #60
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,281


Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
TSMO, do you have any practical experience in the matter or is your only familierity in this subject what you have read in the reports your using as sustinence?
Please define "practical experience in the matter"? Yes, I am thoroughly familiar with the physical demands placed on combat infantrymen and the current PT standards in the military, but no I have never personally served with a female combat infantryman.

That's one reason I deferred to the first-hand account that Big Bird posted from a female Infantry Officer.
__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by tsmo1066; 11-14-2012 at 08:49..
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 09:15   #61
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,170
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Have you gone to combat, and/or done the job so that your argument on what rigors/physical exertion it requires is based upon something more than a "idea" from a paper you read?

Because several of your remarks about what kind of requirements combat has, and how some of those requirements for service are silly strike me as those of someone who does not have any experience in the matter.
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 09:32   #62
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,281


Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Have you gone to combat, and/or done the job so that your argument on what rigors/physical exertion it requires is based upon something more than a "idea" from a paper you read?

Because several of your remarks about what kind of requirements combat has, and how some of those requirements for service are silly strike me as those of someone who does not have any experience in the matter.
I served with the Army from 1987 to 1991, and spent two of those years with the Third Infantry Division stationed in Bamberg, FRG. My MOS was 13M, but I have cross-trained with Infantry units from both 3rd ID and 2nd ACR for border patrol support activities and completed every element of 11B training necessary to qualify for and serve on a Bradley dismount team. I am no stranger to extended marches with a full combat infantry load (plus a little as I humped the SAW on most such marches).

While serving in 3rd ID I also completed a Nijmegan march for fun in the military category, along with about 200 other 3rd ID soldiers who all did the march under full combat load (as opposed to the sissy 22 pound pack that is required to qualify for the 'military' category) Of the 200 infantry and other 3rd ID soldiers that started that march under full load, only 60 of us completed the entire march (over half of the 11Bs washed out as well).

No, I have never deployed into combat as an infantryman, but yes, I am more than familiar with the physical requirements of the job.

And your own experience as a combat infantryman consists of?
__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 13:30   #63
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,170
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
As an infantryman? None. I was pulled off the only deployment I'd have gotten the 11b mos for.

As far as combat, I've gone down range to Iraq twice, and done several other deployments in non combat/non peace time areas. I'm currently a platoon sgt, and part of my job is the rescue/recovery of downed helicopters and their crews.

Females constantly fail the everyday standard for mechanics/crewchiefs, and can't perform several of our emergency procedures. If you expect me to believe that a woman who can't drag a unconscious crewmember from a downed helo could don a ruck and hump like the boys your high.

They have a purpose in the .mil, but just because Israel uses them, and the Russians did when they were facing total annihilation, does not mean that they should be part of our infantry. Your comparing apples to lug nuts.
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 13:39   #64
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,170
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
You seem to be falling into the exact same trap as DevilDog fell into last week.

Your trying to argue about how things work in the .mil based on your understanding of how things were 20+ years ago.

We've been at war for over a decade now. Our forces are more fit, more lethal, and better trained to bring the hurt than ever before. Of all that, perhaps ask yourself, of all the guys championing women in the combat arms, why is it never the guys who've gone down range and lead/followed/fought with women?
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 13:50   #65
Psychman
NRA Life Member
 
Psychman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6,372
So two women got injured. So what? The next 2 may make it through. I am all for them trying if they have the motivation to do so. Debating it here doesn't mean squat.
__________________
NRA Life Member

NCOWS
Hey, I just love guns.
Psychman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 14:02   #66
tsmo1066
Happy Smiley
 
tsmo1066's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 7,281


Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
You seem to be falling into the exact same trap as DevilDog fell into last week.

Your trying to argue about how things work in the .mil based on your understanding of how things were 20+ years ago.

We've been at war for over a decade now. Our forces are more fit, more lethal, and better trained to bring the hurt than ever before.
That's BS. Every veteran knows that back when he was in the service, the combat forces were made up of real men and that these days it's all a bunch of Momma's boys.

Really...ask any of us!



Seriously, though, fair point about the modern service.
__________________
Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. - Benjamin Franklin
tsmo1066 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 14:04   #67
Hailstorm
Boom Shacka
 
Hailstorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canton Mi
Posts: 5,569


I say make a new unit. Just call it"That time of the Month" . So, if it's that time of the month. Someone is gonna die.
__________________
Practice Random acts of Kindness
Hailstorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 14:32   #68
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,170
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
That's BS. Every veteran knows that back when he was in the service, the combat forces were made up of real men and that these days it's all a bunch of Momma's boys.

Really...ask any of us!



Seriously, though, fair point about the modern service.

Hahaha, it's always real men, they just keep getting younger. In the "old guy" at 27.

But I did want to add, that was in no way saying your service was any less because it was at a different time. Simple just that how we do it today is different.
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 15:46   #69
Paul7
New Guy
 
Paul7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East of Eden
Posts: 13,342
Wonder how many men will die from this insanity, from allowing unqualified 'soldiers' in. We need the most qualified people, period.

Reminds me of a funny story, my chiropractor is from Canada and wanted to be a pilot in the military. He was one of the top rated pilot prospects in Canada, but that was the time they brought in affirmative action so he said screw it. The woman who took his place wrecked the plane her first flight.
__________________
“I don’t believe that people should be able to own guns.” Obama to John R. Lott Jr. in a private conversation at the University of Chicago.
Paul7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 16:17   #70
Spiffums
I.C.P.
 
Spiffums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,113
They should have joined the Air Force........they let girls be snipers and everything.
__________________
Internet Celebrity Personality
Spiffums is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 16:18   #71
Peace Warrior
CLM Number 221
Am Yisrael Chai
 
Peace Warrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: With the other 7,999,999
Posts: 26,239
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul7 View Post
... Reminds me of a funny story, my chiropractor is from Canada and wanted to be a pilot in the military. He was one of the top rated pilot prospects in Canada, but that was the time they brought in affirmative action so he said screw it. The woman who took his place wrecked the plane her first flight.
IIRC, there have only been two women that have ever passed fighter school in the Canadian Air Force. My info is a tad dated, but if what you say is true, the first two female pilots to ever make it through training/flight school were both assigned to fighter squadrons with no such crash. The second one to make it through did have a mishap during training when she was attempting a difficult landing, but her instructor took over at the controls and saved the plane. She later nailed the landing on a subsequent try.
__________________
“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it.” - William S. Burroughs
"Nothing we're gonna do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that [our gun ban legislation] will bring gun deaths down..." - VPOTUS Joe Biden
"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
"Well are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?" - Josey Wales

Last edited by Peace Warrior; 11-15-2012 at 04:18..
Peace Warrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 17:10   #72
F14Scott
CLM Number 283
Luggage
 
F14Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 3,993


I quote myself from another thread on the same topic:

My direct experience with females was limited, as the deployed squadron I served in was forward deployed in Japan and not gender integrated. As a flight student at the RAG (FRS) and then later as an active duty guy at a reserve squadron, though, I worked with female support NCOs (maintainers, admin, etc.).

First, I'll just make some observations:

Women are able to pilot just as well as men. They fly the jets just fine.

Women cannot do all the physical jobs an officer/aircrew member might need to do as well as men. Dragging your unconscious RIO out of a burning jet. Carrying your injured shipmate up a couple of ladderwells. Running a half mile in 40 lbs. of flight gear to get to concealment after an ejection. I was one of the skinniest officers in my squadron at 5'11", 165 lbs., but I could carry my biggest pilot (6'4", 240 lbs. up a flight of stairs and the length of the flight deck, if I needed to. I would bet that not a single female aviator flying today could do that.

Women require accommodations in space limited ships. A few women will share a head, forcing dozens of men to share one fewer head. Same with berthing.

I do not know how gyno issues impact the flight and watch schedule. I imagine they have some negative impact. ETA - I wonder what the overall FMC rate (fully mission capable) for men v. women is, and what the overall cost for health care, men v. women, is.

Women get pregnant and must go home (but not get penalized for it on their FITREPS), both accidentally and on purpose. Men must pick up the slack.

Women cause morale and discipline problems. They quickly recognize the power sexuality holds over the men and use that status to pass off work, enjoy favors, and stir up drama for entertainment. ETA- They also cause the wives at home considerable worry that is not present with an all male crew.

Women trigger a protective instinct in men that, I believe, would be disastrous in a POW situation. The women would be used as instruments of torture on the men. The women would almost certainly face rape and pregnancy by their captors. Ugh.

Women can't get drafted. A small part of me always felt (and still feels) that the military was the provenance of men because defending the country falls to the men.

I don't believe any of these inequalities can ever be overcome. Permanent inequalities degrade morale, lower combat effectiveness, and generally mean a less effective and/or more expensive military.

How much is it worth to America, by equally seating women where they are not true equals (physically or by their required treatment), to pretend they are the same?
__________________
If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.
F14Scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 17:33   #73
USMCgs3
Senior Member
 
USMCgs3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 352
I don't see how they didn't pass infantry school if they passed basic training. But they do their bootcamp at Paris island so idk what that's like. To me Infantry school was more of the same as bootcamp during phase 2. Now Machine gunner school was pretty challenging for me being only 5'5 130 lbs, but it was only 3 weeks long with the 20k hump with the M2 receiver on top of my pack being the hardest part. But even then we switched offs between the barrel, tripod and receiver. In the end if you have the heart to be a Infantry Marine you will make it, otherwise you will get yourself hurt an end up in motor t like my friend lol.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
USMCgs3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 17:47   #74
pizza_pablo
USN Retired
 
pizza_pablo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Unfortunately, in the name of equality we will continue to send them, and eventually lower standards so that they pass.
Just like fighter pilots....
__________________
If liberals don't want us to treat every Muslim like a terrorist, why do they treat every gun owner like the Newtown shooter?
pizza_pablo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2012, 18:26   #75
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,170
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by pizza_pablo View Post
Just like fighter pilots....
Reading has never been one of your strong suites eh?
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 17:06.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,312
371 Members
941 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42