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Old 11-14-2012, 07:14   #26
SCmasterblaster
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I carry a Glock Model 17 loaded with 17 rounds of 115gr JHP+p+ Winchester cartridges. It is very comforting to know that I have enough powerful ammunition if confronted by four or five assailants.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:15   #27
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My opinion: (Yes, opinion. As in, "I don't speak for everyone.")

3. I don't personally care for either cartridge. I Agree on the 10mm in the sense of shear power and penetration but if I had to choose between one or the other for carry, I'd take the .357 Sig. Why? Smaller platform, more controllable, the gun fits my hand better, and less possibility of overpenetration.


There is no need to worry about over penetration with the10mm.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:42   #28
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There is no need to worry about over penetration with the10mm.
Which 10 mm load are you referring to? The reduced load .40S&W equivalent, or the original full 10mm loading?
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Old 11-14-2012, 13:49   #29
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Which 10 mm load are you referring to? The reduced load .40S&W equivalent, or the original full 10mm loading?
Full house 10mm loadings. Also of note, your tone in today's posts seems... different...
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Old 11-14-2012, 14:00   #30
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He still has 1 post. There is potential for epic proportions.

#5
Agreed.
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Old 11-14-2012, 14:19   #31
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Full house 10mm loadings. Also of note, your tone in today's posts seems... different...
I hope that I didn't sound rude - not my intent,
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Old 11-14-2012, 14:32   #32
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I hope that I didn't sound rude - not my intent,
Nah man, not at all.
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Old 11-14-2012, 14:44   #33
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Nah man, not at all.
So how are things in the 12th state? I am in the 14th state.
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Old 11-14-2012, 14:48   #34
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So how are things in the 12th state? I am in the 14th state.
Eh, not bad I guess. Can't really complain.
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Old 11-14-2012, 14:58   #35
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Ah jus' loves me some caliber wars!
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Old 11-14-2012, 16:01   #36
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The 45ACP is a great round and the Glock is a great hand gun. I carry a Glock 36.

The 40 S&W is a round that was commissioned by the FBI. They wanted a round that had the stopping power of a 125gr, 357mag with less recoil. They also wanted ten rounds and as easy to train with as a revolver. Simith & Wesson came up with the 40 S&W and a pistol that was double action only. It was offered to the FBI and they bought it.

The 5.56 was not picked by the military because of its killing power. It was designed to hurt people. Take them out of the fight and have some one look after them. It takes two to four men to take care of a man hurt and no one has to take care of a dead man. That is why they picked the 5.56 over the 7.62.

My side arm in the woods is a 44mag. Daily carry is a Glock 36. Best all around gun to do both tasks would be 3" 357 revolver.

For hunting any big game in the United States it would be hard to beat the 358 Winchester with a stiff load. It can be down loaded with 357 bullets and used for taking small game.

These are just my opinions.
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Old 11-14-2012, 16:33   #37
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My opinions:

1. Carry the largest caliber that you can shoot accurately.
2. Carry a proven and reliable cartridge in your weapon.
3. Practice often enough that you maintain or improve your level of proficiency with your carry firearm.
4. If it's worth shooting once, it's worth shooting twice.
1. You should be able to shoot any size caliber accurately. Some will be quicker for follow up shots than others, though.
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:20   #38
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There is no need to worry about over penetration with the10mm.
Not from what I've seen but maybe your tests results were somehow different than mine.

There isn't enough street data on the 10mm nor any commercially available loads in 10mm that are scientifically/professionally tested to the same standards as most Law Enforcement grade ammunition.

As a result, there isn't much real world data available on the subject. Yes, there is some but much of it is either inconclusive or incomplete.

I don't like betting on maybe or it probably won't. Granted, my tests with several 10mm loads were in no way scientific but the results with the 10mm loads almost all over penetrated when compared to other popular calibers such as .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357 Mag.

None of the loads tested in any of the other calibers showed any over penetration where the 10mm did nearly every time. We obtained average to really impressive expansion on the loads tested but we had severe over penetration issues with most of them.

To sum it up, the 10mm has a lot of power behind it and it shows in the form of over penetration. With hand loads that were toned down a good bit (closer to .40 S&W velocities) over penetration wasn't a issue and expansion wasn't as impressive with some bullets either.

I'm not here to tell anyone that carries this cartridge that they should reconsider it. All I'm stating is what my experience has been with the cartridge and why I feel the way I do about it.

In short, it's not for me.
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Old 11-15-2012, 14:10   #39
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The 10mm isn't for everyone. The boost you get over the .40 S&W is worth it to some, but frankly, most people can't handle it. That's why I would never recommend the 10mm to my agency as a prospective choice for a duty caliber. Even the mid range loads are too stout for many shooters, and most especially those LEO's who don't practice their shooting skills. That having been said, my 17 year old son can handle 200 grain Underwood XTP, so where there's a will there's a way. I must be completely forthcoming though, in that my son is a 6 foot 3 inch tight end on his high school football team. If size and strength matters, which I think it does in shooting the heavier calibers, the 10mm is way too much for many smaller statured police officers who weren't born and bred shooting firearms.
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Old 11-15-2012, 15:01   #40
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I may one day carry a G36. It is a neat and powerful combo.
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Old 11-15-2012, 15:18   #41
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Not from what I've seen but maybe your tests results were somehow different than mine.

There isn't enough street data on the 10mm nor any commercially available loads in 10mm that are scientifically/professionally tested to the same standards as most Law Enforcement grade ammunition.

As a result, there isn't much real world data available on the subject. Yes, there is some but much of it is either inconclusive or incomplete.

I don't like betting on maybe or it probably won't. Granted, my tests with several 10mm loads were in no way scientific but the results with the 10mm loads almost all over penetrated when compared to other popular calibers such as .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .357 Mag.

None of the loads tested in any of the other calibers showed any over penetration where the 10mm did nearly every time. We obtained average to really impressive expansion on the loads tested but we had severe over penetration issues with most of them.

To sum it up, the 10mm has a lot of power behind it and it shows in the form of over penetration. With hand loads that were toned down a good bit (closer to .40 S&W velocities) over penetration wasn't a issue and expansion wasn't as impressive with some bullets either.

I'm not here to tell anyone that carries this cartridge that they should reconsider it. All I'm stating is what my experience has been with the cartridge and why I feel the way I do about it.

In short, it's not for me.
Hmmm, not what I've seen in my testing nor the gel tests that I have seen around the net. Can more velocity cause more penetration from over expansion (petals folding back around the core of the bullet)? Sure. Most times velocity hinders penetration because of increased deformation of the projectile and the increase of resistance from retarding forces. The difference I've witnessed between the calibers was much more pronounced in the way of destruction, if you will, not penetration.

Now when you say "over penetration' do you mean it just simply penetrated more than the others? It actually takes a lot of penetration to really count as over penetration.
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Old 11-15-2012, 15:29   #42
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Hmmm, not what I've seen in my testing nor the gel tests that I have seen around the net. Can more velocity cause more penetration from over expansion (petals folding back around the core of the bullet)? Sure. Most times velocity hinders penetration because of increased deformation of the projectile and the increase of resistance from retarding forces. The difference I've witnessed between the calibers was much more pronounced in the way of destruction, if you will, not penetration.

Now when you say "over penetration' do you mean it just simply penetrated more than the others? It actually takes a lot of penetration to really count as over penetration.
You are well-educated in this discussion. Bullet overpenetration is a much-discussed topic.
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Old 11-15-2012, 15:56   #43
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Hmmm, not what I've seen in my testing nor the gel tests that I have seen around the net. Can more velocity cause more penetration from over expansion (petals folding back around the core of the bullet)? Sure. Most times velocity hinders penetration because of increased deformation of the projectile and the increase of resistance from retarding forces. The difference I've witnessed between the calibers was much more pronounced in the way of destruction, if you will, not penetration.

Now when you say "over penetration' do you mean it just simply penetrated more than the others? It actually takes a lot of penetration to really count as over penetration.
It's like that 180 grain Underwood test tnoutdoors did. The Gold Dot completely expanded, and the petals bent all the way back with the jacket almost separating from the core. I am sure that bullet expanded past its limit, and the velocity of the Underwood load kept it driving deeper into the test media.

I have thought about what you speak of too. I often wonder how much deeper the Underwood 200 XTP will be driven as compared to the Hornady 200 grain load.
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Old 11-15-2012, 16:01   #44
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It's like that 180 grain Underwood test tnoutdoors did. The Gold Dot completely expanded, and the petals bent all the way back with the jacket almost separating from the core. I am sure that bullet expanded past its limit, and the velocity of the Underwood load kept it driving deeper into the test media.

I have thought about what you speak of too. I often wonder how much deeper the Underwood 200 XTP will be driven as compared to the Hornady 200 grain load.
What was the caliber - .40 S&W?
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Old 11-15-2012, 16:02   #45
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What was the caliber - .40 S&W?
10mm @1300+
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Old 11-15-2012, 16:03   #46
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10mm @1300+
Awesome round, the 10mm.
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Old 11-15-2012, 16:04   #47
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It's like that 180 grain Underwood test tnoutdoors did. The Gold Dot completely expanded, and the petals bent all the way back with the jacket almost separating from the core. I am sure that bullet expanded past its limit, and the velocity of the Underwood load kept it driving deeper into the test media.

I have thought about what you speak of too. I often wonder how much deeper the Underwood 200 XTP will be driven as compared to the Hornady 200 grain load.
I would guess it would drive that sucker pretty deep. As you know, the core on the XTPs are stout. Pretty much seems to me that the petals are on their own so to speak. I think the faster you drive it the petals will either try harder to lay flat giving way to some deep penetration. I wouldn't use it on people that's for certain.
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Old 11-15-2012, 16:07   #48
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Awesome round, the 10mm.
You should look up the vid (180grn by TN9outdoors) on Youtube.
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Old 11-15-2012, 16:09   #49
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I would guess it would drive that sucker pretty deep. As you know, the core on the XTPs are stout. Pretty much seems to me that the petals are on their own so to speak. I think the faster you drive it the petals will either try harder to lay flat giving way to some deep penetration. I wouldn't use it on people that's for certain.
So my 115gr Hornady 9mm XTP bullets are no good for SD?
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Old 11-15-2012, 16:28   #50
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So my 115gr Hornady 9mm XTP bullets are no good for SD?
Oh, I'm not saying that. To be honest I don't know much about that round. Lucky for you 9mm guys you do have lots of documented street shootings to help along with ammo selection. I would personally stick to one of the common bullets in 9mm for SD purposes in big factory name loadings or Underwood. The XTPs are meant for deep penetration but are not really expansion kings. Many of the other common bullets such as the Gold Dots, HST, etc give good expansion and meet most peoples needs for minimum penetration with street cred to boot.

The reason I said that about the 10mm 200 grain XTP is because of a few reasons. One is that the XTP, again, is really a hunting bullet with tough construction. Two, it has a high sectional density at that weight. Three, the combination of these factors coupled with the higher energy levels of the 10mm, IMHO, make it unsuitable for common SD purposes. Energy is essentially the bullet's ability to do work. Although some energy is lost in the way of heat (and other things) there is plenty enough ability left to possibly make it over penetrate with the potential for deep penetration on another (inocent) target.
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